[Michael Merbach]

RE: National?? Regional??ramblings of a mad man.

Mike merbach here, regional competitor, productiion class.we started rally with a clear path. finish events. earn seed position, and respect, as a "safe" finisher. I feel media exposure happened as we finished well, regardless of (natl-regional) class.
To win a rally YOU HAVE TO FINISH !
To finish you have to tread a fine line between fast , quick and safe.
You have to push your equipment.
You will not tow a unprepared car to a event very often as the club/pro system was.
If I am allowed to rejoin the event I may be tempted to cut prep corners.This person would be a hobbiest.
Lets keep it the way it was. earn the right to compete at the national level. allow dual entries to people who are proven finishers trying to improve their programs.
A seed 1-2 driver is a quick well sorted driver/team. If they need to feed their ego at the expense of regional competitors Great. That team has to live with the press release.
The rally community wants to navigate the forest to spectate. They are out in the pickers to see the fast well sorted teams.
The spectators that put the effort into getting out to watch this activity Will see me and you as well. The story they tell will spread
And we gain EXPOSURE To quote Pat Richard spend your money in the drivers seat. get exposure the rest will come.

 

[Adrian Wintle]

>I know I am being selfish as we are running Regional only
>this year, but I REALLY would like to see the National /dual
>entered cars not scored if they complete the National.

It is possible for a team to have started out attempting to run a national effort, but leaving the contingency to run the regional championship if their funding for the national effort doesn't come through (or is eaten up in fixing the car). If you don't score them in the regional in the nationals that they finish, you destroy their contingency plan. You could also be accused of failing to provide services they paid for...

Also, a team may want to run their local national event to provide better exposure for their sponsor, even though they are really concentrating on the regional series.

>Is there really any other reaon to dual enter, other than
>trophy hunting or insurance? IF there IS, I am missing it...

We entered the regional at Maine to potentially gain some contingency money. The potential reward was greater than the financial risk. We didn't qualify for contingency in the class we were running in the national (P), so we entered the regional in G2. We were running P at the national level to gain points for the NARC.

We didn't do the same thing at Ojibwe becaue the differential cost to enter the regional was higher, making the potential reward significantly less.

Adrian

 

[jake himes]

>I know I am being selfish as we are running Regional only
>this year, but I REALLY would like to see the National /dual
>entered cars not scored if they complete the National.
>
>Is there really any other reaon to dual enter, other than
>trophy hunting or insurance? IF there IS, I am missing it...
>
>ALso, I REEEEEAAAALLLLY look forward to comparing our times
>running regional to the National guys, and it would be nice to
>have a single format results showing us all.

National doesn't mean faster, divisional doesn't mean slower. Those days are gone. That's part of my point. Competing in the national series just means that you have more resources. Not many have those resources. National entries are thin.

 

[J Cox]

>So tell me what you think of this idea...
>
>No dual entries ever. You sign up for either one or more
>regional championships, or the national championship, or none
>of the above and pay the registration fees accordingly. If you
>DNF any day, but get your car fixed (eg: fuel pump replaced)
>before the end of the event, you're officially out of the
>standings as a DNF but you're welcome to rejoin the fray to
>gain the seat time we could all use. Due to safety concerns,
>you would be placed back into the sequence where you "should
>be" according to your speed factor and so on (steward's
>decision).
>
>What do y'all think makes the most sense?
>
>Cheers,
>-Doug

Doug,

This is a difficult issue with valid concerns from both sides of the issue. Not being smart enough to stay silent on difficult issues, here's my reaction:

Keep all the stuff mentioned above about being able to re-start on the seocnd day, and add...

-Only one type of entry at any event. No National, Regional, or Dual designation at individual events.

-Organizers give trophies and report results to RA with all entrants combined.

-To tally season points, RA sorts people into National and Regional, based on which series the competitor signed up for.

-Competitors can only sign up for one series. This preserves the regional series for regional competitors, so they can have good fair battles and have some good results to show sponsors.

-The National/Regional separation only occurs at the RA/season point counting level. If you want to be scored for the National series you pay RA a National Series entry fee up front. That could be about equal to the current difference between Regional and dual-entry fees, calculated as an average number of events run by a typical natinal team. So each National team would pay something like $400 x 6 events = $2400 to join the National Series. This money would get paid back to organizers who run National events (since that's where it would have gone under the old system anyway).

-If we feel that this system means the national teams will take all the trophies at local events, we could go back to awarding event trophies to Seed groups. For example one trophy set for Seed 0-4 and one set for 5-8. This is the same number of trophies as the current system (2 sets), but perhaps more fairly distributed.

This system would pay organizers the same amount they collect for entry revenue now, keep national teams from taking year-end regional awards, crown the fastest cars at each event as it's winners, give talented but low-budget teams and shot at regional championships, and perhaps free up national teams to work regional events (since the incentive to get points there would be removed).

Fire away.

Jim Cox
#558

 

[Shenan]

>-Only one type of entry at any event. No National, Regional,
>or Dual designation at individual events.
>
>-Organizers give trophies and report results to RA with all
>entrants combined.
>
>-To tally season points, RA sorts people into National and
>Regional, based on which series the competitor signed up for.

Sounds perfect so far.

>-Competitors can only sign up for one series. This preserves
>the regional series for regional competitors, so they can have
>good fair battles and have some good results to show
>sponsors.

I think this one is kind of questionable. I think trying to bar people from making a legitimate run for a championship will just discourage competitors and take away seat time. Why not allow people to make a legitimate run for national and regional at the same time? If they're really fast and dominate the regional, they will have to deal with stigma and animosity anyway, which I think would keep most really fast drivers from doing this.

>-The National/Regional separation only occurs at the RA/season
>point counting level. If you want to be scored for the
>National series you pay RA a National Series entry fee up
>front. That could be about equal to the current difference
>between Regional and dual-entry fees, calculated as an average
>number of events run by a typical natinal team. So each
>National team would pay something like $400 x 6 events = $2400
>to join the National Series. This money would get paid back
>to organizers who run National events (since that's where it
>would have gone under the old system anyway).

I would hesitate to charge such a high fee up front to register for the national series. How much money are organizers actually getting now from dual entry fees, that is above the normal single entry fees?

>-If we feel that this system means the national teams will
>take all the trophies at local events, we could go back to
>awarding event trophies to Seed groups. For example one
>trophy set for Seed 0-4 and one set for 5-8. This is the same
>number of trophies as the current system (2 sets), but perhaps
>more fairly distributed.

Awesome idea, if it is needed, but I would think that the only really proper occasion to split up the field like that would be if there were huge numbers of entries (80+). Cool, now I understand why in Finland they have A and B class drivers.

>This system would pay organizers the same amount they collect
>for entry revenue now, keep national teams from taking
>year-end regional awards, crown the fastest cars at each event
>as it's winners, give talented but low-budget teams and shot
>at regional championships, and perhaps free up national teams
>to work regional events (since the incentive to get points
>there would be removed).

Cool, I like most of it, except for the large up front national registration fee and limiting people to registering for only one championship. Thanks Jim!

 

[Michael Merbach]

-Organizers give trophies and report results to RA with all entrants combined.

-To tally season points, RA sorts people into National and Regional, based on which series the competitor signed up for.

I have my marketing hat on now.

How are/is the nation motorsport community going see the competition.The magazine people are not going to seperate competitors in their articles.outdoor, speed, espn-2 can we expect them to point out the points leader of what ever series that team is running?

Just think of a privateer J COX cleaning S Douglas clock at a off road race the only one jim is running. when the show hits the air the story would read who the? what the? I feel the whole exposure would become trivialized to just; those GUYS, in CARS, in the WOODS.

Warning I may post again with my racer hat on.

 

[Pete Kuncis]

Thoughts from a non-competitor:

- Designate the competitor by region ahead of time.
- Have one type of entry per event. This covers national and regional(s).
- National points get accumulated by whoever finished at the top, regardless of region.
- You only get regional points if you compete in a race in your own region. (Doug travels to So.Cal and only gets national points. Leon goes to So.Cal and gets national and regional points.)
- National Contingency money gets split up by the order you finish, regardless of region
- Regional Contingency money (I'm not sure what to do about this. Whether give it only to people of that region or national. I'm thinking regional people only).
- DNF's rejoin the rally only once per weekend at the next "Stage 1". If you are at Maine and DNF on the little Mexico Rec stage, you then can restart only on Saturday at the regional Stage 1 in your normal Speed Factor spot. You get no national points and you get no Friday regional points. You are totally eligable for Saturday regional points (if it's your region). If it is a 1 day event like STPR, you are able to rejoin after the lunch break at the start of the 2nd regional race. You get no regional points, and you are eligable for points from the 2nd regional race.
- If you make it through day 1 at Maine and you DNF after 1 mile on Saturday, then you are done for the weekend since there are no longer any "Stage 1's" left. This should keep random people from jumping in the line during the middle of an event.

The only iffy part to me is the regional contingency money. Making it available to only regional people would keep people from far away coming and getting reimbursed for the longer tow expenses. Making it available to all entrants would not really be fair to those in the region.

The DNF portion gets the people more safe seat time, yet does not disrupt those who have been in the event for every stage mile.

Some of these may be totally off the wall. Some may be spot-on. That's why I don't organize or drive. I'll just stay behind the lens.

See you in the Sno.
Pete

 

[Don Kennedy]

Sounds like a plan to me. For most of us, they'll always be somebody elses ruts to have to cope with.

 

[Don Kennedy]

RE: National?? Regional??ramblings of a mad man.

>If I am allowed to rejoin the event I may be tempted to cut
>prep corners.This person would be a hobbiest.

I would bet that most DNFs DO NOT come from badly under prepared cars.

>And we gain EXPOSURE To quote Pat Richard spend your money in
>the drivers seat. get exposure the rest will come.

Bingo. Seat time

 

[J Cox]

>
>How are/is the nation motorsport community going see the
>competition.The magazine people are not going to seperate
>competitors in their articles.outdoor, speed, espn-2 can we
>expect them to point out the points leader of what ever series
>that team is running?

Easy solution is that the media are directed to focus coverage on the teams registered for the National series. Sample broadcast/print laungauge:

"The battle for the RA National championship in the Production class raged at STPR with Mike Merbach edging out his nearest rival Mark Tabor at the event. That puts Mike 2 points ahead of Mark with only three rounds to go. Keep an eye on this battle! Also of note was the exceptional drive put in by regional entrant David Johnson who was quicker than Merbach and Tabor at his home event, delighting teh home-town fans by showing the out-of-towners that local talent is not to be taken lightly."

This concept could be pushed even farther if RA wanted to build a mandatory "media fee" into the National Series registration fee. This fee would guarantee funding of TV, and marketing services focused on the National teams.

Jim Cox
#558
>

 

[Lancia037Rally]

Homefield advantage

In a lot on instances, Regional teams should be expected to be quicker on their home turf. They've competed on those roads more often than the traveling National teams. Some National rallies use the same roads as stand alone Regionals and drivers get a double dose every year.

 

[tcc]

I just want to post and say I like the idea of being able to get back in the rally after DNF'ing and not count it for points/results. I don't mind eric's idea of the DNF'ing only being once, it still would keep you somewhat in control.

My first DNF was a simple fix, and getting a look at hte car at service would've fixed it, and I could've gotten a bit more seat time.

Are there any sweep issues to deal with? Holding up the rally at all?

 

[John Vanlandingham]

RE: Homefield advantage

>In a lot on instances, Regional teams should be expected to
>be quicker on their home turf. They've competed on those roads
>more often than the traveling National teams. Some National
>rallies use the same roads as stand alone Regionals and
>drivers get a double dose every year.
Possibly.
In some classes such as Gp2, it could very well be that since folks who have no fantasies about the big time awaiting them if they indebt themselves towing around and driving "tactically" let's say tactfully,that they have some money left over for building their cars to a better specification eg real close ratio box, final drive, real diff, decent brakes, and by having a car which is more a proper rally car which works effectively, they have the chance to learn to drive better.

The answer could be possibly found in the inner reaches of the skulls of the folks who stay more or less locally and those who tow around.

Could be the folks who stay local are statistically speaking, representitive of the average competitive sportsman who WANTs COMPETITION, and takes pride in doing the best possible in front of people he knows and whose opinions he wants to be respected in for his driving.
One the other hand,there are some who knowing the huge season long cost of towing around the country alone, and the well known history of how merely towing and driving (to quote one former National Champion who was second to last Overall in every event he entered (bar one where he was 4th from last)
"to a plan", and how since the results are manipulated to not include the pesky Divisional/Club low life, have clearly concluded that the moniker of National Champignon is something important to be able to say to (presumably) people who will be impressed by that.

So the psycological motivations of people clearly have a major influence on what one guy vs the other may choose to concentrate on; for some the result on any given day, others what they can display to maybe others who weren't there.

Anybody remember the young guy from Texas who chatted up some sponsors for his Sububitchi without previous results and was going to take on the world, until the sponsor actually came to a "pro" event, the "Most prestigious" event, and remember what happened to his sponsorship?
I guess the sponsor wasn't impressed, once he saw what we really do, eh?






John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

janvanvurpa (at) f4 (dot) ca

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!

 

[JC_595]

Pete's posts makes the absolute most sense to me.

The one thing I am not looking forward to is losing out on Regional Subaru contingency money by National/dual entered OPen class SUbies, as they get NO contingency money now for National(only Regional), so it makes perfect sense to spend $200-300 extra to get back $500 for a Regional win to help pay for things.

That's the way the contingency money is worded this year. Bummer- I HAVE TO run National to get PGT money, or we have to beat Open class guys to get it.

We'll have fun anyway, but I was looking forward to the chance of maybe getting some dough back...