[jake himes]

First of all I don't have anything against fast teams in regional events.

Check out the entry list. Iorio, ACP, and Utecht are all racing the regional event. Sweet. I say let's just run two big races with everyone all together since we are all just divisional racers anyway. The only thing different between the national and divisional teams is the amount of resources they have, and some contingency opportunity anyway.

I know I am an opinionated bugger and I apologize if I come off the wrong way but I do have to chuckle a bit at this situation.

On a more serious side I wonder what is behind an effort to sell a national series. Until we get some serious help or factory teams back it will only be like it was last year, without Pat.

So in the interest of being positive I offer a few ideas:

1. Focus on the development of local rally clubs. This is done everywhere else where rally works.

2. Tow freakin' fund. That would help get more than a handful of people to the rallies.

3. TV coverage for all the class winners and cars being *driven* quickly, not just a couple of seconds either. At least 2 shots. Using local folks to get the cameras to a good locations is a great idea that I have heard kicked around. Rally TV had some great footage.

I like what I have seen so far from RA. Keep up the good work guys. TV2GO rocks.

 

[rallyracer21]

>First of all I don't have anything against fast teams in
>regional events.
>
>Check out the entry list. Iorio, ACP, and Utecht are all
>racing the regional event. Sweet. I say let's just run two
>big races with everyone all together since we are all just
>divisional racers anyway. The only thing different between
>the national and divisional teams is the amount of resources
>they have, and some contingency opportunity anyway.
>
>I know I am an opinionated bugger and I apologize if I come
>off the wrong way but I do have to chuckle a bit at this
>situation.
>
>On a more serious side I wonder what is behind an effort to
>sell a national series. Until we get some serious help or
>factory teams back it will only be like it was last year,
>without Pat.
>
>So in the interest of being positive I offer a few ideas:
>
>1. Focus on the development of local rally clubs. This is
>done everywhere else where rally works.
>
>2. Tow freakin' fund. That would help get more than a
>handful of people to the rallies.
>
>3. TV coverage for all the class winners and cars being
>*driven* quickly, not just a couple of seconds either. At
>least 2 shots. Using local folks to get the cameras to a good
>locations is a great idea that I have heard kicked around.
>Rally TV had some great footage.
>
>I like what I have seen so far from RA. Keep up the good work
>guys. TV2GO rocks.

i agree with you jake i mean it would be awesome to have them do waht you said

 

[Shenan]

Jake, I have been frustrated about the separation of national and regional results at combined events for a while. It's disheartening to see regional competitors have way better results than national competitors and be relegated to the "club rally" results and not show on the press releases or TV coverage. It's also just generally confusing to the public.

On a rally weekend, whoever finishes fastest should get the glory, regardless of being "national" or "regional" competitor. Sort out the championship points separately.

PS: Yes, I know that currently the combined regionals are usually separated by day instead of being the whole weekend like the national, but that would be trivial to fix.

 

[Lancia037Rally]

>It's
>disheartening to see regional competitors have way better
>results than national competitors and be relegated to the
>"club rally" results and not show on the press releases or TV
>coverage.

So why don't those regional competitors fork out the money to enter National? As far as results go, its two seperate rallies and think about the regional being a sprint and the national being an enduro. Regional competitors can sometimes afford to go faster.

>It's also just generally confusing to the public.

SCCA's ClubRally ID package for those entered in ProRallies and vice versa was most confusing. Glad to see that go.

>On a rally weekend, whoever finishes fastest should get the
>glory, regardless of being "national" or "regional"
>competitor. Sort out the championship points separately.

Pay the piper by entering the national if you want exposure. Want cheap grassroots rallying, enter regional.

 

[Shenan]

Pay up to show in the results, even if you are the faster team. It doesn't sound very sporting to me.

Also, if I recall correctly, this year's rules won't allow just anyone to register for a national at will, unless you have several rallies behind you. If that's the case, a new team can't register for a national even if they wanted to, effectively being blocked from exposure for what, 18 coefficients (minimum 6 rallies? I don't recall).

Even in the WRC, people that pay lower entry fees (privateers, and locals even lower fees) show up in the same results sheet as everyone else.

 

[J Cox]

The only thing different between
>the national and divisional teams is the amount of resources
>they have, and some contingency opportunity anyway.
>

Jake, it seems to me that this year it's going to be even more strange than you imagine, but in a good way. Here's my logic:

Step 1: All teams can now enter the National series if they choose, for $125 additional on the lic. (small cost relative to anyone's rally budget).

Step 2: The Regional series are now even bigger geographically than they were before (conversion of SCCA divisions to RA Regions). This will drive up costs for those trying to win their Regional championships (but will provide more meaningfull championships).

Step 3: We all know that travel is the big cost we can't escape. Thus, due to the size of the new Regions the travel costs to win your Region aren't that different from the travel cost to do 5 or 6 of the Nationals.

Thus I think 2005 will see more dual entry than ever before. Especially since we competitors don't know exactly how the series will develop as the season goes along (will new sponsors/TV be announced part way through the season, will super fast teams come in that remove any shot of regional guys getting a National podium, etc.).

The current situation may actually get you exactly what you want to see (fastest car actually ends up at the top of the podium, regardless of national or regional competitior) albeit at the cost of increased spending by those serious Regional teams.

If you re-examine your budget and schedule for 2005 (that's what I did), I bet you could finish VERY well in National G2 or P without spending any more moeny than you'd need to spend to shoot for a 2005 Regional championship effort.

Jim Cox
#558

 

[Foghorn]

>Also, if I recall correctly, this year's rules won't allow
>just anyone to register for a national at will, unless you
>have several rallies behind you. If that's the case, a new
>team can't register for a national even if they wanted to,
>effectively being blocked from exposure for what, 18
>coefficients (minimum 6 rallies? I don't recall).
>

Almost 100 percent positive that you don't recall correctly on this point. RA is not restricting entrants to a certain level of event. There are restrictions about car classes you can run as a new competitor or restrictions on your car if it doesn't meet the P or G2 limitations, but not a restriction on the event you enter. I'm pretty sure I have that right.

Kent Gardam

 

[Guest]

>Pay up to show in the results, even if you are the faster
>team. It doesn't sound very sporting to me.



National and Regional events don't even have the same event schedule sometimes.

Some events run more miles for National teams. LSPR had more Pro miles. COG had an extra day for Pro entries, etc, etc.

Also, if a National entry DNFs a stage the first day, they are done for the weekend.

Regional Entries, assuming they've entered both days of a combined event, can run the next day.

The consequences of making a mistake differ, so comparing National Entries to Regional Entries isn't Apples to Apples.




>Even in the WRC, people that pay lower entry fees (privateers,
>and locals even lower fees) show up in the same results sheet
>as everyone else.

Privateers don't score manufacturers points, either, do they?



If there was going to be a change in how this works, I would like to see dual entered teams that do not DNF the National event removed from the standings in the Regional event.

It stands to reason the dual entries are an insurance policy in case the team DNFs a day, just to ensure they get some seat time.

If they don't DNF, it doesn't seem fair to pit the strictly regional competitors against teams that presumably have deeper pockets.




If it's all about exposure, someone has to pay for the media circus, and the National guys are paying more than the regional folks.

Sooo, if a person wants it to be fair, everything had better be equal for everyone, including entry fees, license fees, etc.

 

[Shenan]

Thanks for the clarification Kent. I must have misread the issuing of multiple levels of provisional licenses, and thought it said you had to go through multiple levels of regional licenses before being able to apply for a national one.

Matt,

I know all about the differences in some of the combined national and regional events, but like I said, it would not be too difficult to align the two. Make Pro be able to reenter the second day after a DNF and adjust the entry fees to compensate the organizers for less dual entries.

If the numbers of stages are aligned (which I don't think would take much effort), it would be exactly like comparing apples to apples. As it is right now, it is a completely artificial and manufactured difference.

>Privateers don't score manufacturers points, either, do they?

Neither do most US national entries. In the WRC, a privateer (who pays a lower entry fee than a WRC factory team) or a local (who pays even less) will show in the same results sheets as the factory drivers, and if they place well, appear in event summary press releases too.

>If there was going to be a change in how this works, I would
>like to see dual entered teams that do not DNF the National
>event removed from the standings in the Regional event.

If nothing else changes, that would be a nice minimal step to improve the current situation.

>If it's all about exposure, someone has to pay for the media
>circus, and the National guys are paying more than the
>regional folks.

Yes, and the nationals have the opportunity for much better exposure and bragging rights for sponsors by placing in a national championship, instead of a regional.

 

[mattjohnston]

Entry fee hardly matters if your paying $150,000 for a weekend in a proper WRC car, the kind you would need if you wanted to show up on the results.

 

[Shenan]

If that was the case, wouldn't they just charge everyone the same as the factory entry fees?

Also, you can enter your local WRC event in a 10 year old $10,000 or cheaper Group N1 car, pay a lot lower entry fee than the WRC guys and be on the same results as them.

Sure you won't be on the press releases and TV coverage, you might be last, but the point is that you are granted the decency of comparing yourself and being able to show others how you did against the best. Who knows, maybe just something to show the grandkids some day.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with the WRC, it was just an example. Am I the only one who thinks segregating people in the results solely by how much entry and license fee they pay is contrived and lame? Segregate by car age, driver age, car class, skill level, whatever, but doing it by how much money you pay for your fees doesn't make any sense.

I'm not asking for anything more than a single integrated results sheet for the whole rally. By the way, this would also foster better competition and faster driving too.

 

[dch]

So tell me what you think of this idea...

No dual entries ever. You sign up for either one or more regional championships, or the national championship, or none of the above and pay the registration fees accordingly. If you DNF any day, but get your car fixed (eg: fuel pump replaced) before the end of the event, you're officially out of the standings as a DNF but you're welcome to rejoin the fray to gain the seat time we could all use. Due to safety concerns, you would be placed back into the sequence where you "should be" according to your speed factor and so on (steward's decision).

That would take a few bucks out of the organizer's pocket.

Note that unless you signed up for the regional championship, your result won't count against those who are signed up for it. So if Stig dual entered and won everything overall, he isn't going to affect the regional championship standings.

Would you want to allow anybody to sign up for the national championship along with one or more regional championships? It would seem kinda silly to be the national champion, and the central champion to me. Then again, competition may actually be stiffer in the regional championships than in the national!

You run the risk of having your results affected by someone who has DNF'd already, but if you ever DNF (er, when you DNF?) you gain the advantage of getting the seat time without having to fork over more dough so it's a give & take not just a give.

What do y'all think makes the most sense?

Cheers,
-Doug

 

[jake himes]

>Pay the piper by entering the national if you want exposure.
>Want cheap grassroots rallying, enter regional.
>
>

My guess is that there isn't much to make you want "cheap grassroots rallying" like running the national series for a year. Folks go broke.

 

[mattjohnston]

DCH,

That idea sounds superb to me..

 

[jake himes]

>So tell me what you think of this idea...
>
>No dual entries ever.

I personally think that dual entry is great. The organizers need the cash and it makes for better competition in the regional events. I hope more top teams focus on regional events.

If you
>DNF any day, but get your car fixed (eg: fuel pump replaced)
>before the end of the event, you're officially out of the
>standings as a DNF but you're welcome to rejoin the fray to
>gain the seat time we could all use. Due to safety concerns,
>you would be placed back into the sequence where you "should
>be" according to your speed factor and so on (steward's
>decision).

It would be nice to see this done if you DNF _anytime_. Just get back in line at the next MTC if you don't slow the race down or make a pain in anyone's arse. Sorta like Group X. This would help us to be better rally teams. We need to practice driving.

Personally I want our national championship to be more than a towing and available vacation days championship. No matter the talent, there aren't but a handful of private teams capable of doing the national tour year after year. I feel that doesn't make for much of a national series. We need help with tires, motels, gas, food, and entry fees. Any help is great.

I think that ACP, Iorio, and Utecht running the regional events is pretty cool.

 

[Lurch]

I have always thought that the bulk of regional guys didn't like the dual entries because they thought the national guys were trophy hunting.

I'm not sure about the idea of getting back into the event for giggles after a DNF. If it is implemented, I would say the guys would get one "get out of jail free" card. We don't need new guys acing stage one, DNFing stage 2, getting reseeded and rejoining at stage 4, DNFing stage 5, and rejoining again and again. They are going to hurt someone...most likely themselves.

What I don't like is that this could put non-points earning cars in front of a points earning cars. I would be really PO'd if Johnny Lightning can't keep it on the road, but (post-DNF) gets reseeded in front of me only to crash and block the friggin road. Or dig one more set of trenches through the mud. Or pull that watermelon sized rock into the prefered line.

 

[dch]

Jake that's the intent- you can get back into things as quickly as you can fix your car and have it OK'd by a tech (it would need to be at the next available MTC out).

Eric the new guys need the seat time the most. If someone was obviously crashing like you mentioned I'm sure the stewards would just tell them "no" and their license record would possibly indicate that we should not invite them back to play anymore ever. As far as the ruts from a non-points earning car affecting you while you're still in the hunt, there's no way we're going to stick fast guys at the end of the pack so if enough of you say you don't want to put up with that aspect of things even though it may work to your benefit at some point, then the whole idea gets scrapped.

More opinions are necessary. Speak up so we can look for common opinion, or an arbitrary decision will be made one way or the other!

 

[Lurch]

...Speak up so we can look for
>common opinion, or an arbitrary decision will be made one way
>or the other!


I'm sure you mean an "educated" decision, not just "arbitrary," right?


Like I said, the jury in my wee noggin is still out on this one.

 

[Foghorn]

Okay, here's two cents from someone with no national aspirations. For the group that I've been able to hang around with, rallying is all about smiles per dollar. If we do well and somebody reads off our name and gives us a piece of plastic at the pizza party at the end of the event, well that's great. But we aren't playing the game to get another dust collector for the bookshelf. We're playing to have fun and test ourselves and our abilities against the roads. So if there is an opportunity to rejoin the fray, go play some more, and get a few more smiles when all the dollars have already been invested for the weekend, so much the better. I understand Lurch's concerns about possible force majeur from a non-scoring participant but I suspect it's not really any more likely from someone who is running unofficially than it is from someone still in the hunt and trying to move up in the standings.

My vote: let'em run, as long as the car and team are safe for the event and themselves.

Kent Gardam

 

[JC_595]

I know I am being selfish as we are running Regional only this year, but I REALLY would like to see the National /dual entered cars not scored if they complete the National.

Is there really any other reaon to dual enter, other than trophy hunting or insurance? IF there IS, I am missing it...

ALso, I REEEEEAAAALLLLY look forward to comparing our times running regional to the National guys, and it would be nice to have a single format results showing us all.

JC
#595
www.gnimotorsports.com