Anyone know of any T45 steel tube suppliers in the U.S.?
MADMAXXX
G
I haven't worked with T45.
Welding procedures I have seen sound similar to 4130.
Do you have some other welding information?
They composition seems pretty close to Reynolds 531 bicycle tubing or one of their other maganese based alloys, which makes sense as Reynolds is an English company.
Welding procedures I have seen sound similar to 4130.
Do you have some other welding information?
They composition seems pretty close to Reynolds 531 bicycle tubing or one of their other maganese based alloys, which makes sense as Reynolds is an English company.
FYI, according to the rule book T45 is illegal for SCCA cages unless part of FIA homolagated cage. The SCCA banned this and 4130 because stupid people didn't know how to use the steels properly and welded them wrong. Now the rest of us have to suffer. More dumbing down of the sport..... Pretty soon we'll all be driving in left hand circles because someone decided it was too hard to turn right.
But I digress. T45 is a purely European product. The only way to get it is to import at a big price. Jeff is always getting stuff from the UK, and I think Union 7 or Rallispec on the east coast brought some in one time as well. Too bad, cuz it's probably the best steel for roll cages. All the good qualities of 4130 and 1020, and none of the bad.
Dennis Martin
demartin@gbonline.com
920-432-4845
But I digress. T45 is a purely European product. The only way to get it is to import at a big price. Jeff is always getting stuff from the UK, and I think Union 7 or Rallispec on the east coast brought some in one time as well. Too bad, cuz it's probably the best steel for roll cages. All the good qualities of 4130 and 1020, and none of the bad.
Dennis Martin
demartin@gbonline.com
920-432-4845
There is one way to use NEARLY any form of material you want, the rules allow for alternative designs as long as you have the engineering papers to back it up.
I believe Vermont Sports Car uses T45 and builds cages with it.
VSC would probably install a cage into anything you would want for a price. Considering your life is at stake, I bet the price isn't outrageous, though it may be more than one (such as myself) would like to spend.
-Parker
http://www.Rally-america.com
I believe Vermont Sports Car uses T45 and builds cages with it.
VSC would probably install a cage into anything you would want for a price. Considering your life is at stake, I bet the price isn't outrageous, though it may be more than one (such as myself) would like to spend.
-Parker
http://www.Rally-america.com
> I never understood why 4130 was banned... What was the
>reasoning behind that??
I believe it to be misinformation provided to the SCCA technical staff.
Peter
>reasoning behind that??
I believe it to be misinformation provided to the SCCA technical staff.
Peter
> I never understood why 4130 was banned... What was the
>reasoning behind that??
4130 has a long history with SCCA racing, and it probably carried over to rally.
SCCA used to permit a "weight break" for chrome moly cages, allowing a builder to use smaller tubing diameter and wall thickness if Chrome Moly was used. Then there arose some concerns and problems about weld quality and normalization, but in racing, the big deal became eliminating ERW tubing. All things were taken care of by banning ERW outright and taking away the weight break for Chrome Moly.
Things sort of trickled over to rally except they took it a bit further with specifying tubing sizes, as opposed to size minimums, etc.
I am certain there is more to this, but the racing people got the chrome moly animous going.
>reasoning behind that??
4130 has a long history with SCCA racing, and it probably carried over to rally.
SCCA used to permit a "weight break" for chrome moly cages, allowing a builder to use smaller tubing diameter and wall thickness if Chrome Moly was used. Then there arose some concerns and problems about weld quality and normalization, but in racing, the big deal became eliminating ERW tubing. All things were taken care of by banning ERW outright and taking away the weight break for Chrome Moly.
Things sort of trickled over to rally except they took it a bit further with specifying tubing sizes, as opposed to size minimums, etc.
I am certain there is more to this, but the racing people got the chrome moly animous going.
G
I think part of the confusion about 4130 revolves around the lack of concensous for post weld treatment.
If a person reads say Finch's welding book, and then some of the American Metal Society guidelines, and then maybe Lincoln Electric or Miller's suggestions for welding it, it's difficult for the layperson to intelligently decide how to deal with the material.
Consider that it would be impossible to determine if someone used the correct welding wire/rod to weld a 4130 cage during scruitineering. The number of people who want to weld 4130 tubing with 4130 rod is higher than it should be.
It would be nice if they could grant a blanket waiver to prep shops(since rules still seem to allow for alternate materials to be used upon approval) to use 4130 or T45. The rules don't give it a weight advantage anymore, but obviously it's going to be a stronger cage than mild steel.
So that would be my worry. You have people who are marginally capable of using mild steel that could possibly be working with a material that really likes to be clean and can possibly be hardened into a fairly poor state by maltreatment.
If a person reads say Finch's welding book, and then some of the American Metal Society guidelines, and then maybe Lincoln Electric or Miller's suggestions for welding it, it's difficult for the layperson to intelligently decide how to deal with the material.
Consider that it would be impossible to determine if someone used the correct welding wire/rod to weld a 4130 cage during scruitineering. The number of people who want to weld 4130 tubing with 4130 rod is higher than it should be.
It would be nice if they could grant a blanket waiver to prep shops(since rules still seem to allow for alternate materials to be used upon approval) to use 4130 or T45. The rules don't give it a weight advantage anymore, but obviously it's going to be a stronger cage than mild steel.
So that would be my worry. You have people who are marginally capable of using mild steel that could possibly be working with a material that really likes to be clean and can possibly be hardened into a fairly poor state by maltreatment.
>FYI, according to the rule book T45 is illegal for SCCA
>cages unless part of FIA homolagated cage. The SCCA banned
>this and 4130 because stupid people didn't know how to use
>the steels properly and welded them wrong.
Right about stupid people, wrong about people not knowing to how to weld them properly.
Here is a quote
"I wanted to remove the weight advantage of people using chrome moly"......
Now the rest of
>us have to suffer. More dumbing down of the sport.....
From above.
>
>But I digress. T45 is a purely European product. The only
>way to get it is to import at a big price. Too
>bad, cuz it's probably the best steel for roll cages. All
>the good qualities of 4130 and 1020, and none of the bad.
yep too bad indeed that a person whim could be turned into a rule without any membership input at all.
>
>Dennis Martin
>demartin@gbonline.com
>920-432-4845
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
>cages unless part of FIA homolagated cage. The SCCA banned
>this and 4130 because stupid people didn't know how to use
>the steels properly and welded them wrong.
Right about stupid people, wrong about people not knowing to how to weld them properly.
Here is a quote
"I wanted to remove the weight advantage of people using chrome moly"......
Now the rest of
>us have to suffer. More dumbing down of the sport.....
From above.
>
>But I digress. T45 is a purely European product. The only
>way to get it is to import at a big price. Too
>bad, cuz it's probably the best steel for roll cages. All
>the good qualities of 4130 and 1020, and none of the bad.
yep too bad indeed that a person whim could be turned into a rule without any membership input at all.
>
>Dennis Martin
>demartin@gbonline.com
>920-432-4845
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
>There is one way to use NEARLY any form of material you
>want, the rules allow for alternative designs as long as you
>have the engineering papers to back it up.
Parker, the rules allow for cages built to FIA specs, the FIA gives the specs and the drawings in section 253, and gives stacks of drawings as well.
The noirmal procedure is that a car is built using materials meeting the diameters and wall thickness and dimensions specified and then at log book time references which drawings the cage was done to, which is easy as FIA allows "or any combination of the...." door bar, or rear diagonals, etc.
If the cage looks as tho it is done with materials and sizes and designs meeting the drawings and the quality of the welds is acceptable it is assumed that the car meets the requirements.
There is no need to homolgate a cage built in your barn or garage, or to find some nervous litigation wart engineer to make a big deal.
Do it to the specs and it must be at least up to the FIA minimums.
>-Parker
>http://www.Rally-america.com
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
>want, the rules allow for alternative designs as long as you
>have the engineering papers to back it up.
Parker, the rules allow for cages built to FIA specs, the FIA gives the specs and the drawings in section 253, and gives stacks of drawings as well.
The noirmal procedure is that a car is built using materials meeting the diameters and wall thickness and dimensions specified and then at log book time references which drawings the cage was done to, which is easy as FIA allows "or any combination of the...." door bar, or rear diagonals, etc.
If the cage looks as tho it is done with materials and sizes and designs meeting the drawings and the quality of the welds is acceptable it is assumed that the car meets the requirements.
There is no need to homolgate a cage built in your barn or garage, or to find some nervous litigation wart engineer to make a big deal.
Do it to the specs and it must be at least up to the FIA minimums.
>-Parker
>http://www.Rally-america.com
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
> I never understood why 4130 was banned... What was the
>reasoning behind that??
Although I don't know the specific reasoning the SCCA used, there are two common misconceptions in the racing world about 4130. I say the racing world cuz in the airplane world I started in we've been using the stuff 60 years without any problems.
Misconception number one is that it is difficult to weld and/or must be heat treated after welding. It is actually easy to weld using the proper equipment, techniques, and filler. This is true of almost any material. Heat treating is not necessary after welding (although there will be a strength loss, see number two), but normalizing is. Normalizing is simply heating the weld up to specified temp for a few minutes to allow the grain structure to realign.
Misconception number two is that 4130 is much stronger than 1020. This is true in it's virgin heat treated form, but by the time it has been welded, formed, etc.. it is pretty much back too where 1020 was. Small parts can be heat treated for strength, and I suppose someone could heat treat a roll cage if they wanted (don't laugh, I know of a company in Indiana that can heat treat a bus!), but it's a real PIA as the structure tends to distort. In the end it's usually easy to design a stronger stucture to make up for the strength loss.
One might ask, if it isn't stronger, than why use it? Well, I can tell you the reason airplane folk use it is two fold: One, 4130 has much superior corrosion resistance than 1020. Considering the environments we run our cars in, I'd be nervous of an older cage made of 1020 developing internal rust problems. Two, 4130 is generally manafuctured to a higher quality standard, meaning less impurities in the weld and more continuity in wall thickness, etc.... That kinda stuff is important in an airplane where you can't pull over and park if something breaks. I imagine it would be important as you roll your rally car down a mountain side as well.
I know of a number of US aircraft manufacturers who MIG weld 4130, don't heat treat, and the planes aren't falling out of the sky. 4130 can be used safely. The key is proper education, not knee jerk rule making.
Dennis Martin
demartin@gbonline.com
920-432-4845
>reasoning behind that??
Although I don't know the specific reasoning the SCCA used, there are two common misconceptions in the racing world about 4130. I say the racing world cuz in the airplane world I started in we've been using the stuff 60 years without any problems.
Misconception number one is that it is difficult to weld and/or must be heat treated after welding. It is actually easy to weld using the proper equipment, techniques, and filler. This is true of almost any material. Heat treating is not necessary after welding (although there will be a strength loss, see number two), but normalizing is. Normalizing is simply heating the weld up to specified temp for a few minutes to allow the grain structure to realign.
Misconception number two is that 4130 is much stronger than 1020. This is true in it's virgin heat treated form, but by the time it has been welded, formed, etc.. it is pretty much back too where 1020 was. Small parts can be heat treated for strength, and I suppose someone could heat treat a roll cage if they wanted (don't laugh, I know of a company in Indiana that can heat treat a bus!), but it's a real PIA as the structure tends to distort. In the end it's usually easy to design a stronger stucture to make up for the strength loss.
One might ask, if it isn't stronger, than why use it? Well, I can tell you the reason airplane folk use it is two fold: One, 4130 has much superior corrosion resistance than 1020. Considering the environments we run our cars in, I'd be nervous of an older cage made of 1020 developing internal rust problems. Two, 4130 is generally manafuctured to a higher quality standard, meaning less impurities in the weld and more continuity in wall thickness, etc.... That kinda stuff is important in an airplane where you can't pull over and park if something breaks. I imagine it would be important as you roll your rally car down a mountain side as well.
I know of a number of US aircraft manufacturers who MIG weld 4130, don't heat treat, and the planes aren't falling out of the sky. 4130 can be used safely. The key is proper education, not knee jerk rule making.
Dennis Martin
demartin@gbonline.com
920-432-4845
> Anyone know of any T45 steel tube suppliers in the U.S.?
>
T 45 is not available in the US. You would have to contact most likely a UK supplier. I got my cage through "Safety Devices" direct.
The cost is not bad and you get your FIA certification if it complies with FIA regulations.
The problem here in the US is, that not many people know what T 45 is. It's not difficult to weld as some believe and is quiet strong.
Whiplash RallyeSport
>
T 45 is not available in the US. You would have to contact most likely a UK supplier. I got my cage through "Safety Devices" direct.
The cost is not bad and you get your FIA certification if it complies with FIA regulations.
The problem here in the US is, that not many people know what T 45 is. It's not difficult to weld as some believe and is quiet strong.
Whiplash RallyeSport
>I know where to get T45 but it is $$$$$$$$$ and pretty
>difficult to weld. We can bring it in by the container if
>you would like that is easy enough.
NOT...
I paid less than for chromoly and it's not difficult at all to weld.
WHERE do you get your info?
Whiplash RallyeSport
>difficult to weld. We can bring it in by the container if
>you would like that is easy enough.
NOT...
I paid less than for chromoly and it's not difficult at all to weld.
WHERE do you get your info?
Whiplash RallyeSport
G
Wow. Comparing FAA rules to the SCCA.
Isn't that sort of like the Grinch vs. Satan?
One important "point". the FAA doesn't provide insurance on anyones airplanes. Obviously gas welding is time tested, but the SCCA has a fiscal interest in some process uniformity.
Dennis talks about normalization, which goes back to the other point I was trying to make. You have some people saying it's always required, and you have others, including welding companies, saying that it's not required for thinner sections.
see:
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/chrome-moly.asp?print=y
What he describes as normalization, author Richard Finch (Welder's Handbook) calls annealing. Lincoln calls stress relief.
So you have some apparent discrepancies from "good" sources. Imagine how confusing it is to non-technical people.
Isn't that sort of like the Grinch vs. Satan?
One important "point". the FAA doesn't provide insurance on anyones airplanes. Obviously gas welding is time tested, but the SCCA has a fiscal interest in some process uniformity.
Dennis talks about normalization, which goes back to the other point I was trying to make. You have some people saying it's always required, and you have others, including welding companies, saying that it's not required for thinner sections.
see:
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/chrome-moly.asp?print=y
What he describes as normalization, author Richard Finch (Welder's Handbook) calls annealing. Lincoln calls stress relief.
So you have some apparent discrepancies from "good" sources. Imagine how confusing it is to non-technical people.
Matt,
The quote I gave above was a quote, read here or elsewher from the guy who tries to write the rules.
>Wow. Comparing FAA rules to the SCCA.
>
>Isn't that sort of like the Grinch vs. Satan?
>
>
>
>
>One important "point". the FAA doesn't provide insurance on
>anyones airplanes. Obviously gas welding is time tested,
>but the SCCA has a fiscal interest in some process
>uniformity.
But that is not what is stated as the motivation, looking at the quote, it is appearamt the subject was "I" then "wanted to remove the weight advantage".
pretty simple
First make it the same thickness, then forbid it.
>
> Imagine how confusing it is to non-technical people.
Yes it is clear that whoever is writing the rules are confused, probably because thery aren't 'technical people'.
If there were a tiny bit of self doubt and reflection, or possibly a bit more experience the poor rules writers might have wondered, Hmmmmm m how do all those motorcycle and bicycle and airframes get made and stay together using thin wall chrome-moly.
OK, OK, I should keep it to reality here, I was way outa line with that bit about self doubt and reflection, sorry!!!
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
The quote I gave above was a quote, read here or elsewher from the guy who tries to write the rules.
>Wow. Comparing FAA rules to the SCCA.
>
>Isn't that sort of like the Grinch vs. Satan?
>
>
>
>
>One important "point". the FAA doesn't provide insurance on
>anyones airplanes. Obviously gas welding is time tested,
>but the SCCA has a fiscal interest in some process
>uniformity.
But that is not what is stated as the motivation, looking at the quote, it is appearamt the subject was "I" then "wanted to remove the weight advantage".
pretty simple
First make it the same thickness, then forbid it.
>
> Imagine how confusing it is to non-technical people.
Yes it is clear that whoever is writing the rules are confused, probably because thery aren't 'technical people'.
If there were a tiny bit of self doubt and reflection, or possibly a bit more experience the poor rules writers might have wondered, Hmmmmm m how do all those motorcycle and bicycle and airframes get made and stay together using thin wall chrome-moly.
OK, OK, I should keep it to reality here, I was way outa line with that bit about self doubt and reflection, sorry!!!
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
Sorry I have not been on in a little while, now with T45 tubing it is not completely difficult to weld but it is not easy to weld for the inexperienced welder. This is because of the thin walls and not the material per se. In a Subaru the t45 cages most people are using have very very thin walls I am not up with my metric to standard conversion but 2mm or even a little smaller with a 50mm od. Now you can use several different types of filler and if you are good, Mig welding a T45 cage is no problem but you will not get the beautiful small beads that Prodrive gets on their cages. A subaru FIA cage weighs maybe 150lbs. that is very light. While I know this is a discussion about T45 tubing most of you can buy cage kits (they do not always fit perfectly and you will have to cut a bit) for even cheaper and shipping is pretty cheap as well. Now I have heard both sides of the Cromoly arguement but one thing a lot of people have told me (not the most knowledgeable welder in the world but my employees are pretty sharp) is that one thing is the filler material makes a difference and that the thin walls do not require normalization. A simple web search will point you to ER80S-D2 as the best filler material for 4130 and this is a standard ESAB wire. A container from the UK (20 and 40 foot are about the same price maybe 200-300 difference) runs about 3500 to the west coast so would be cheaper to the east coast. The stuff below was super pricey (60 Euros a meter), T45 I can get but the more I buy the cheaper it is you know how that game usually is. If people wanted to get together and get some together we would need to decied on what tube sizes people would want and wall thickness the whole nine and that is where I think the problems would start with trying to organize anything like that.
Now my tube supplier offers different Tubes to use:
Chrome Moly Weldable Steel
Chrome Moly Nickel Heat treatable
Chrome Moly Heate treatable steel
One offering that they had this year at the show was used in the the new Mitsu WRC car. I believe it is this one but will have to dig through my sheets but here is the specs . Much higher tensile strength then 4130.
15CrMoV6.9 (15CDV6)
Cold drawn High strength seamless tubes, suitable for bending and welding
Chemical analysis:
C (Min .12, Max .18) Mn (Min .80, Max 1.10) Si (Max .20) S (Max .015) P (.025) Cr (Min 1.25, Max 1.50) Mo (Min .80, Max 1.00) V (Min .20, Max .30)
Tensile strength: >= 980-1180 N/mm (squared) (143000-172300 PSI)
Elongation >=10%
Hardness >= HRC29
Welding: DOes not requir Pre or Post heating. Tig with 1.7734.2
Similar to: 1.7734.5 & 15CDV6, T980 to AIR 9160C
Now my tube supplier offers different Tubes to use:
Chrome Moly Weldable Steel
Chrome Moly Nickel Heat treatable
Chrome Moly Heate treatable steel
One offering that they had this year at the show was used in the the new Mitsu WRC car. I believe it is this one but will have to dig through my sheets but here is the specs . Much higher tensile strength then 4130.
15CrMoV6.9 (15CDV6)
Cold drawn High strength seamless tubes, suitable for bending and welding
Chemical analysis:
C (Min .12, Max .18) Mn (Min .80, Max 1.10) Si (Max .20) S (Max .015) P (.025) Cr (Min 1.25, Max 1.50) Mo (Min .80, Max 1.00) V (Min .20, Max .30)
Tensile strength: >= 980-1180 N/mm (squared) (143000-172300 PSI)
Elongation >=10%
Hardness >= HRC29
Welding: DOes not requir Pre or Post heating. Tig with 1.7734.2
Similar to: 1.7734.5 & 15CDV6, T980 to AIR 9160C
Oh yeah take it easy on the FAA it is a very hard job those people have. Dennis still checking on the brakes, when is your next rally? On a side note I want you to take pictures of your rear susension and meail them to me I need to see where it is binding I may have a solution for you. Speak to you soon.
>Hey Dennis,
>
>Wanna get off on a discussion of why it's OK to
>oxy-acetylene weld an airplane frame, but not an SCA roll
>cage?
>
>Mark B.
No, I don't have the patience. I will say that I routinely trust my life to oxy welds.
I have a lot of respect for the technical staff in Topeka. They are trying to write regs that will cover a lot of cars, in a lot of situations, built by people with widely varying degrees of knowledge and skill. It's not an easy job, and they do pretty well most of the time. Things like the no oxy welding, though, show a limit in their depth of knowledge. What do we always tell beginners? "If you don't know ask! There are no dumb questions." I think the SCCA should have asked a few more questions before writing the the rules. I still contend that the better solution is to EDUCATE NOT REGULATE people on the proper use of different material.
Dennis Martin
demartin@gbonline.com
920-432-4845
>
>Wanna get off on a discussion of why it's OK to
>oxy-acetylene weld an airplane frame, but not an SCA roll
>cage?
>
>Mark B.
No, I don't have the patience. I will say that I routinely trust my life to oxy welds.
I have a lot of respect for the technical staff in Topeka. They are trying to write regs that will cover a lot of cars, in a lot of situations, built by people with widely varying degrees of knowledge and skill. It's not an easy job, and they do pretty well most of the time. Things like the no oxy welding, though, show a limit in their depth of knowledge. What do we always tell beginners? "If you don't know ask! There are no dumb questions." I think the SCCA should have asked a few more questions before writing the the rules. I still contend that the better solution is to EDUCATE NOT REGULATE people on the proper use of different material.
Dennis Martin
demartin@gbonline.com
920-432-4845
Issue has been resolved. Whenever buying a car that has been sitting and not campaigned in the last several years it is best to contact your local scrutineer, whether NRS or RA first and discuss the car, documentation and safety equipment. If you don't have a local contact then feel free to contact me on here, Mike Hurst or Mark Bowers. We're always willing to help. But you have to ask first to avoid the financial risk of a recage or car that just won't comply.
Gene McCullough
Gene McCullough
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
