Looks like a great idea. What's the recipe look like ?
+ What equipment is needed in the car? In Service?
+ Does everyone choose a frequency their team is going to be on?
+ How do the safety guys know which frequency everyone is on?
+ Does someone at Service need a license as well?

Thanks!

 

APRS is, at it's most rudimentary, pretty simple to implement from the "I want to have my car tracked" side of things. Here's the recipe:

Ingredients:
1 no-display GPS with a serial port output (about 2" square, and about $50)
1 "tracker device" with a serial port input (again about 2" square, and can supply power to the GPS, runs on 12V)
1 ham radio

Cooking:
Connect the GPS to the tracker. Plug in the tracker. Take the audio-out of the tracker and put it into the mic-in of the radio. Tune the radio to 144.390 MHz.
Bake for a couple minutes, and you're now broadcasting your GPS position every couple minutes.

On the receiving end, that guy listens to 144.390, picks up all the broadcasts, decodes them, and whala! Your ham call sign hovering over a little car picture is shown on a map.

To explicitly answer your other questions:

+ What equipment is needed ...In Service?
A scanner hooked up to a laptop.

+ Does everyone choose a frequency their team is going to be on?
All APRS activity is on one shared frequency, always.

+ How do the safety guys know which frequency everyone is on?
The APRS is defined as running on 144.390. The digipeaters (repeaters for digital info like this) are listening on that frequency.

+ Does someone at Service need a license as well?
Nope. At service, you're just listening, not transmitting. You can get a radio shack scanner with no license or anything and use that. Plug it in to the "audio in" of your laptop, run software, and off you go.

Cheers,
Anders

 

So, do I have to leave my rig turned on, on stage (I usually leave it off)?

And do I need to leave it on 144.390? (I usually have it on the emergency frequency for that stage - so that if I need to use it quickly, it is one less thing to think about).

Do we need more repeaters for each event? (Some events have difficulty getting coverage now).

Does this require more workers?

press on (and 73s),

 

So, do I have to leave my rig turned on, on stage (I usually leave it off)?

And do I need to leave it on 144.390? (I usually have it on the emergency frequency for that stage - so that if I need to use it quickly, it is one less thing to think about).

Yes and yes; if you want to be tracked, you will need to leave it on 144.390.

Do we need more repeaters for each event? (Some events have difficulty getting coverage now).

If we wanted 100% coverage at STPR, we would need more repeaters, but because APRS is a digital mode, the bandwidth is significantly less than used for phone, so coverage is much better. If you can accept that you'll be cut off in some areas, simplex on 144.390 will work pretty well.

I cannot foresee a need for more workers from this.

Two other things:
1) I have an OEM GPS receiver and a Kantronics TNC all set up for APRS. If you would like to try it for a few events, just let me know, and I'll send it to you.

2) While I think APRS is a good idea, I think the perfect rally tool would incorporate APRS and PSK31 or some similar digital mode. This would allow communication between crew and car as well. (Not for professional teams, but anyone else). Also, I'd want it in one box, and small enough to be used for backpacking too.

- Christian, KB3HGF

 

While APRS sounds like it would be fun to play with, and could be useful in a rally situation, I think the original point of Rich's thread may be getting somewhat sidetracked.

I agree that I think it would be great to strongly encourage, if not necessarily mandate, all competitors to put a ham radio in their rally cars for safety reasons. And technically, while it's better for one or both of the competitors to get a ham license so they can communcate in normal situations, once a safety situation arises all bets are off - anyone, licensed or not, can use a ham radio to prevent personal or property damage. So actually everyone could put a ham radio in their car right now and listen to rally net, stage frequencies etc. One just can't transmit unless one has a ham license, or a safety situation arises. Having said that, I would still advise everyone to get licensed as it opens up more possibilities. And it is important for anyone that intends to use a ham radio to be familiar with ham etiquette. We don't want to upset any ham volunteers, one of rally's most valuable resources.

These days you can get a rugged 2m only ham radio and antenna for around $200. So it shouldn't be cost prohibitive for anyone but the most budget constrained competitors.

 

(snip)...
If we wanted 100% coverage at STPR, we would need more repeaters, but because APRS is a digital mode, the bandwidth is significantly less than used for phone, so coverage is much better. If you can accept that you'll be cut off in some areas, simplex on 144.390 will work pretty well...(snip)

- Christian, KB3HGF

There is a function within APRS that allows each tracker (or car in this application) to repeat all the APRS info it hears. So, if car 'A' can't be heard by the repeater, and car 'B' can hear car 'A' and the repeater, car 'A' will get it's info into the repeater. Plus, position reporting is automatic. So, if your data doesn't get out this time, it will get out next. Anyone viewing the trackers would simply see your car advance, skipping the position which could not be heard. If car-to-car repeating was enabled, small hand-held units would probably even work.

I installed 2 of these systems in 2 cars at Laughlin in 2003 (or 2004?). It worked well.

Also, on the tracker that I used, you could flip a switch to initiate a secondary message. One application would be: Switch position 1: Car #, driver name, etc.
Switch position 2: Car#, "HELP NEEDED", ETC.

It's a lot simpler than it sounds.

 

Hope everyone is building some awesome cars over the winter.

I'm trying...but it's cold out, haha. I'm not even close to the HAM selection part yet.

 

Good idea.

Yes, I want to get my HAM radio license. I started reading the book last year but then ran out of steam, so I'm planning on getting that taken care of over the winter.

So if you have any hints or tips, they will be appreciated.

Rally on,
Guido H.

 

Looking for a class:

http://www.arrl.org/FandES/courses/

Where to take an exam:

http://www.arrl.org/arrlvec/examsearch.phtml

A list of all possible questions on the exam:

http://www.ncvec.org/page.php?id=333

Yes, I want to get my HAM radio license. I started reading the book last year but then ran out of steam, so I'm planning on getting that taken care of over the winter.

So if you have any hints or tips, they will be appreciated.

Rally on,
Guido H.

press on,

 

Jimmy,

Thanks a lot for the links.

BTW: My top reasons to get the HAM license:
- Being able to communicate with the crew before we get to service, so I can let them know what they need to be ready for.
- Staying on top of what's going on with the rally (delays, etc).
- Being able to communicate emergencies without having to proceed to the next radio control.

Guido

 

Hey, it's Guido! Hiya! Welcome to SS!

As for hams in cars, I'm all for it, but I don't think it's practical to require it. For one thing, it's one more thing to require competitors, and one more barrier to entry. For another, there're some questions about the appropriateness of competitors using them, especially at events where there're prizes. Currently, no one really complains because it's clear that it's a safety network, but if more competitors use it, it's likely to stir up some controversy. For instance, if Christian uses it to contact the Subaru team to give them forewarning of what needs to be done on the car before they get back to service, that could be construed as using it for monetary gain. For little guys, the question doesn't really come up, but the Subaru team is pretty high profile right now.

For another, that puts an extra onus on the organizers to check and provide support for competitor hams. Right now it's always difficult finding enough hams and repeaters to use; generally the events (at least the ones I've worked) use local open-access repeaters, and try to get permission for their use from the local ham clubs. Having hams in the cars who're just monitoring the event is one thing, but if you're talking about a separate network just for the competitors, I'm not sure the organizers need the extra stress of finding approprate repeaters.

That leaves the possibility of deploying repeaters just before an event. The problem there is that repeaters are expensive, and require more than just basic ham knowledge to set up. You can't just go down to HRO and buy a repeater. You can get the radios after some hunting, but even then you need a duplexer and possibly RX and TX filters. All together, a decent repeater can run from about $1500 if you're lucky with Ebay to $6000 or more if you're really fussy and buy everything new. Finally, you need to package all of this up and provide some deep-cycles or a generator and a good antenna and find the right place to deploy and hope that someone doesn't steal it while the event is running.

It can be quite a headache.

As for the possibility of just going simplex - I have yet to work an event where simplex was available everywhere throughout the event. It might be available from start to finish along one stage, but getting back to service? Not unless you're really lucky.

 

Hey, it's Guido! Hiya! Welcome to SS!

As for hams in cars, I'm all for it, but I don't think it's practical to require it. For one thing, it's one more thing to require competitors, and one more barrier to entry. For another, there're some questions about the appropriateness of competitors using them, especially at events where there're prizes. Currently, no one really complains because it's clear that it's a safety network, but if more competitors use it, it's likely to stir up some controversy. For instance, if Christian uses it to contact the Subaru team to give them forewarning of what needs to be done on the car before they get back to service, that could be construed as using it for monetary gain. For little guys, the question doesn't really come up, but the Subaru team is pretty high profile right now.

Here is the relevant text that someone dug up sometime back that describes the more liberal rulemaking proceeding in which the old "no business" language was dropped :

http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/spevman/index.html#ch6

The way I read it, the main intent seems to be that the amateur operator not be financially compensated specifically for providing communications. Having said that, I don't know, but I would hazard a guess that the Subaru team are probably using business band radios as opposed to ham radios.

For another, that puts an extra onus on the organizers to check and provide support for competitor hams. Right now it's always difficult finding enough hams and repeaters to use; generally the events (at least the ones I've worked) use local open-access repeaters, and try to get permission for their use from the local ham clubs. Having hams in the cars who're just monitoring the event is one thing, but if you're talking about a separate network just for the competitors, I'm not sure the organizers need the extra stress of finding approprate repeaters.

That leaves the possibility of deploying repeaters just before an event. The problem there is that repeaters are expensive, and require more than just basic ham knowledge to set up. You can't just go down to HRO and buy a repeater. You can get the radios after some hunting, but even then you need a duplexer and possibly RX and TX filters. All together, a decent repeater can run from about $1500 if you're lucky with Ebay to $6000 or more if you're really fussy and buy everything new. Finally, you need to package all of this up and provide some deep-cycles or a generator and a good antenna and find the right place to deploy and hope that someone doesn't steal it while the event is running.

It can be quite a headache.

As for the possibility of just going simplex - I have yet to work an event where simplex was available everywhere throughout the event. It might be available from start to finish along one stage, but getting back to service? Not unless you're really lucky.

I think most competitors probably know that organizers are strapped for ham resources as it is. Clearly there are not currently extra ham resources for competitor-specific use. I think what people are suggesting, and what seems to be the current modus operandi, is that competitors only monitor the rally net, and the simplex stage frequency for the current stage, to keep abreast of the rally status; and very brief transmission only if car off / broken down, or transmission as necessary if a saftey situation arises. If competitors are able to respect these guidelines it should be beneficial for competitors to have ham radios in their cars and provide useful and more timely information.

As far as competitor communications with their service crew, I think that needs to be on a competitor-specific simplex frequency only. Practical transmission distance probably only a mile or two, but may be just enough advance warning for them to get out any special parts or tools needed before pulling into service.

 

I think what people are suggesting, and what seems to be the current modus operandi, is that competitors only monitor the rally net, and the simplex stage frequency for the current stage, to keep abreast of the rally status; and very brief transmission only if car off / broken down, or transmission as necessary if a saftey situation arises. If competitors are able to respect these guidelines it should be beneficial for competitors to have ham radios in their cars and provide useful and more timely information.

Yep, and I'm all for that - especially after having done sweep/course closing so often.

 

Pretty cool:

http://www.byonics.com/microtrak300/

APRS with a 2M transmitter all in one for $97. Just need the antennas, GPS receiver, etc.

Think I may experiement with some of this stuff... need to get around to getting my HAM license.

 

Ummm....

At OTR, we go simplex for I think just about all the stages. Same for Mt Hood and for the Washington rallies, I believe.

At least, I've never had to dial in a duplex freq to get Net Control at any of the events I've gone to up here.

My $0.02 for Hams in the car: I was able to call in my own off to the stage captain, and the crews loved it. Thought it was funny. Of course, I was only 4 instructions into the stage at the time...

But seriously, I enjoy knowing what's going on, and knowing that if I come upon an incident (medical, crash, local on stage, whatever), I can make sure the details get to the right people without having to go who knows how far to the next radio point.

Anyway, I like it, and a lot of us NW competitors also like it. There are lots of Hams in cars out here!

Kt

 

Pretty cool:

http://www.byonics.com/microtrak300/

APRS with a 2M transmitter all in one for $97. Just need the antennas, GPS receiver, etc.

Think I may experiement with some of this stuff... need to get around to getting my HAM license.

That is very cool. Though I have to wonder about the effectiveness of a 300mWatt xmit in most rally areas, even given the small bandwidth needs of the APRS protocol.

 

Great response!

Great response to this thread. Jimmy has already supplied the arrl.org link for those looking for test sessions in their areas.....thanks! I also want to thank Christian & Anders for their excellent input.

As a "VE" (volunteer examiner- which is a Ham that is certified to administer license exams) I recommend if you have "looked at" the book at all, go on-line and take a few practice exams. There are many sites that offer these at no charge;
http://www.eham.net/exams/
http://www.qrz.com/testing.html
http://www.aa9pw.com/
http://www.dcarc.net/practice_tests.htm
http://www.w8mhb.com/

The list goes on & on or just "Google" Ham Radio practice exams.
Practice tests are good to help you gauge what areas you may be weak in, if there is a section that you just can't seem to get .....don't stress out over it, the test is multiple choice.

Now find a "VE session" invest $14. and sit down and give it a try ......you may surprise yourself.

The real learning in Ham Radio comes from listening on the air.

Most Ham gear is purchased via mail-order (best prices & usually no tax), get a copy of QST magazine from a local Ham in your area this will give you plenty of places to look for equipment.

Try to stay away from used gear for something your safety may depend on.
Also avoid rigs with cooling fans on them, as they tend to suck in a lot of dust. The antenna you will probably want will be a quarter wave (19 & 1/4'
' long) with either a hard mount (NMO) or large magnet (4''), these have a high angle of radiation (good for areas with lots of hills).

You will find that most parts of the country have Ham clubs with lots of people that are interested in helping out newcomers.

As far as APRS & stressed organizer resources, APRS is kind of a niche or sub hobby most people that "mess around" with it are anxious to demonstrate it's usefulness. I think if there were enough competitors using this at an event it would bring out a whole new group of Ham volunteers and equipment.

One more thing to mention the "HT's" (handie-talkies or hand held radios) are going to be "OK" for listening, but will not be reliable to talk with on most rallies. Face it "the best place for a Rally is normally the worst place for radio or cell phones".

Hope some of this is helpful & if anyone has a specific question pleas email me, n2zkx@arrl.net or rallycom@hvc.rr.com, if I don't know the answer I'll find someone that does.

Happy Holidays & 73 (hamspeak for Best regards)

 

Time for my usual nag. If you do get your ham license, you need to practice using the radio so when that once a year or once a month rally comes along, you are familar with the radio and all its functions. One of the best ways to do this is to join RACES - Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service. PSA complete.

 

The real learning in Ham Radio comes from listening on the air.

Very true. Even better for rally purposes is listening to a rally net in operation. A net in general is significantly different than just listening to free talk on your local repeater. And rally nets are unique (and unique to events too) in their own way.

Also avoid rigs with cooling fans on them, as they tend to suck in a lot of dust.

Every radio I've ever seen with a fan mounts the fan externally, and pulls air across the external heatsink. A fan like that will not suck dust into the unit.

However, for a rally car, the KISS principle is best. No fan means one less moving part to break.

 

Time for my usual nag. If you do get your ham license, you need to practice using the radio so when that once a year or once a month rally comes along, you are familar with the radio and all its functions. One of the best ways to do this is to join RACES - Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service. PSA complete.

There is a lot of truth to this.

Case in point. I'm basically a rally-only ham. No desire to do anything else with the radio. At LSPR this fall, I was driving to the Friday stages, trying to figure out how to set the xmit tone for the repeater squelch (yes, that simple) and didn't have my paper manual. What I did have was my laptop with a PDF version on it open in the passenger seat. On the highway...

I got the tone programmed in, but in the process I somehow managed to enable the repeater function of my radio, repeating between the two repeaters that the event was using... Doh!

Thankfully, it was very early and nobody was actually using the second repeater yet.

Using your radio more than a couple times a year will help you remember this stuff.

Failing that, there appear to be Yahoo! groups for most of the popular radions (Yaesu radios for certain) and people have produced soime very nice quick reference cards for the various models (which I also didn't ahve with me...).

 

I've thought about getting my Ham license after working as Stage Captain one year at LSPR. Lemme say, having a license and a radio would've made my life SO much easier that weekend.
I've even done some research, and almost looked up a test admin in my area...but then work came, and there went Ham.

 

Im all for Hams in the cars, as an official car in the past and present having someone to relay real time info along is priceless. As im building my car my co-driver is getting his ham license and we're building the ham unit into the car. Luckily their small but they do need sufficient air space around them.

 

I recommend getting a copy of the ARRL book, "Now You're Talking" to study from. I borrowed one from the local library and studied for a couple evenings. The questions and answers (both right and wrong) for the test are in the back.

I was looking at the APRS tracking stuff on line the other day and thought it would be a great way for fans, race organizers and teams to keep tabs on competitors. I would definitely log in to see a map with location and speed of the individual racers as they progressed through the stages. True, radio coverage isn't always the best for the places were races are held but it would a start. The locations of safety vehicles could also be tracked so the closest vehicle could respond to emergencies.

 

Anyone know how the decoding of the APRS stuff works? Without using one of the websites that offer the service?

 

Anyone know how the decoding of the APRS stuff works? Without using one of the websites that offer the service?

It's a combination hardware & software solution. The hardware for the GPS positon encoder by itself (no radio transmitter) is pretty cheap ($33). And the software is provided for free. Haven't really looked in detail, but it looks like it just takes serial digital NMEA sentence output from a serial GPS unit and modulates it onto an analog carrier for feeding into the Radio analog mic input. More info here :

http://www.byonics.com/tinytrak/

The link to the device posted earlier in the thread (http://www.byonics.com/microtrak300/) for $97 actually includes a 2m radio as well, simplifying things and eliminating the need for cabling between the GPS position encoder and the radio. However, as pointed out earlier, the built in radio power output is only 300 mW (0.3W) compared to 50W for a standalone radio. Some reasons for the low power output likely include desire for small size and low power requirement, but the primary reason is probably because it doesn't include a radio receiver, so it doesn't know if another APRS transmitter is transmitting and so to avoid transmitting at the same time to avoid interference. By limiting power output, the range is limited, so the likelihood of interference is much less, however the negative side effect is the likelihood of hitting a repeater to get your signal out to the APRS network is much less too. Probably okay if you live in an area with a 2m repeater nearby, but probably not much good if not.

What would be smart is if it had a random backoff interval between transmits (similar to some wireless networks), so if two deaf APRS transmitters happen to transmit at the same time, they don't both then transmit at the same time again at the next time interval (though I think the time interval beween APRS transmissions is normally configurable, but I think there are normally only a couple of options for transmit interval, though in theory I see no reason why it can't be set to any desired value).