[levears]

Here's the situation:

A car is racing down a stage and slides off the road into a ditch. The occupants of the car are both perfectly healthy (or at least no worse of than before they went in the ditch). The car suffers no significant damage and is perfectly safe to compete in and perfectly safe and legal to drive on a transit. The problem is no matter what the occupants do they are unable to get the car out of the ditch.

The sweep crew comes along and reaches the car.

What is your opinion on what should happen now?

Your opinion doesn't need to be supported by the current rules, I just want to know from competitors, organizers, sweep crews, or anyone who has an opinion how they think this situation should resolve.

Thanks

Simon

 

[Pete Kuncis]

DNF

 

[Mad Mike]

>Here's the situation:
>
>A car is racing down a stage and slides off the road into a
>ditch.
>
>Simon

The devil's advocate in me makes me say that I think the driver should have held just enough in reserve to avoid falling off the road in the first place.

}>

Halley ...
ProRally #86
http://www.realautosport.com

 

[VWRX]

I am of two minds:

A. DNF. If you can't get back on the road before sweep shows up, you're done. It's not the job of the sweep team to aid competitors who are still under time pressure; their job is to help folks who've DNF'd.

B. Plan A, above, puts our unfortunate competitors under pressure to get their car back on the road while the stage is still live. Depending on the circumstances (say: not totally stuck in the ditch, but high centered & salvable through digging under car, while laying with your legs sticking out into the road) this could be radically more dangerous than just taking the time hit, waiting for sweep, getting pulled out in 30 seconds, and puttering along to get your money's worth on the next stage/leg/day etc.

So there's a trade-off, I think.

Thoughts?

-Isaac

 

[JGZ3869]

125% of the time of the stage winner in the same class. Let the driver have as much of a seat time as possible.

 

[rhino]

Run Group X

- that way, you can get your picture in the SCCA's magazine

 

[Rich Smith]

Simon,

Actually, I've been in that situation.

We went off course, over a small creek (not through it), and got stuck in a soft high bank about 10 feet off the road. We thought our rally was over.

But, sweep came through prompty and pulled us out. The car looked okay and we asked permission to continue ahead of him. It was alright with him and we finished the stage without being time bared.

It was my son's first drive, I was codriving. Just finishing the rally was important to us. I've always been very greatful for how it was handled.

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"

 

[John Vanlandingham]

> 125% of the time of the stage winner in the same class.
>Let the driver have as much of a seat time as possible.

Well that would be a help for some drivers.
Also what do you do in the classes where like say production there has often been only 1 entrant in the class?

Perhaps since we KNOW what the current situation is; as usual it might be englightening to ask WHY crews sould be DNFed on the spot.

Ive pulled guys outr when I was a sweep, there were so far behind anyway they were just getting some value for the entrance fee, the motel rooms, the time off and the work preparing to get there.

Why not let them continue?




John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

 

[randyzimmer]

If sweep never passes you, (pulls backward) you are legally ahead of sweep.
I sweep "says" they never passed you, you are ahead of sweep.
Depends on the crew I guess. Some take joy in your pain but not many thankfully.
rz

 

[Morison]

if we look at the fairness of this ...


If car 10 in a 40 car field has this problem, they are time barred before sweep gets to them. car 40 - may only lose 5 minutes.

Practice in Canada is to allow the cars aided by sweep to continue and be scored. Theory is that the time dropped in the ditch si enough of a penalty.

That said, I am in favor of allowing time barred competitors to continue unscored (WITH CAUTION) for seat time. a 'second stuff and you stop' policy should be in force however.

 

[AlanPerry]

>Perhaps since we KNOW what the current situation is; as
>usual it might be englightening to ask WHY crews sould be
>DNFed on the spot.

I presume that you mean that sweep tugs you out and you can continue. However, this is not done at all events. For example, aside from one noted incident, you must turn in your time card before sweep will pull you out at Ojibwe. Yes, I know about this from first hand experience.

alan

 

[RichardM]

Policy at Pike's Peak seemed to be a DNF was scored as 30 minutes. I tried to get this in the rules for the last Paris rally but got told (not by any one in Topeka) that I had to score them as a DNF with no score in Paris. But this was not for a yank out by sweep but a genuine DNF. Depending on the rally schedule, a yank from sweep should be allowed to continue.
Richard Miller

 

[rallyracer21]

ive always wonderd that same question

 

[KevinG5Hahn]

Easy enough in my mind....


Get pulled out by sweep slowest car in class plus 50% of that cars time on the stage.


Only car in the class? Slowest stage time plust 50% of that time.


If the car is intact and undamaged, atleast not damaged enough to compromise the car let them back with those penalties.


On a stage with a 12 minute top time a top crew might be looking at a 30+ minute time as the back runner in class is probably running 20minutes plus.

It lets drivers compete but basically puts them out of the running for position but lets them get a finish and if its a top car fight its way back through the ranks.

 

[Adrian Wintle]

Ok, now go to the next scenario - you ar the second car off in the stage. Sweep pulls out the first car and they continue. They get to you and are now running, say 30 min behind the rally (its a long stage and it took a couple of tries to get the first car out). Once they get you out you are now well beyond max lateness, but you might not have been if you were the only car off in the stage. Is it fair to let one car continue and have one DNF - dependent on where in the stage you went off wrt. the other offs?

Much as I like the concept of being allowed to continue if pulled out by sweep, it is fairer to say that you are DNF if you get assistance from them. The concept of allowing you to continue unscored is a whole different Pandora's box.

BTW, I've been the second car in the scenario.

Adrian

 

[randyzimmer]

Adrian,
All I can say is that this sport doesn't have much fair about it.
First on road = slippy, 10th on road = dust, 50th on road = ruts and so on.
Making the rule book thicker can't resolve every possiblity.
---
With the sprint format we now have, having a flat can screw you a bunch alone. My vote (as a competitor) is for seat-time if at all possible.
---
Although we all type about nut-cases being bad, there are some pretty famous guys who were in that catagory early on. We have to trust that sweep will be the judge on who is worthy of continuing and who is just plain nuts. That would do us more good than a written rule.
rz

 

[3literpwr]

HAHAHAHA!!! Fantastic


>Run Group X
>
>- that way, you can get your picture in the SCCA's magazine

 

[Flyboy]

There is nothing worse than parking a perfectly good car early on in the rally. Especially bad when you've waited months to run, towed all day to get there, spent hundreds on the entry fee, hundreds more on the hotel, etc.... By the time sweep gets to you you've lost too much time to be competitive, now you just want to have some fun. Group X, the also rans (ala CT '01), whatever the organizers wanna do, just let the guys run the stages they paid for. This is especially cruel to the back of the pack. How are these guys supposed to learn and get better?

BTW, didn't some of the proposed WRC changes address this issue? I.e. getting cars back out so the fans could see them and the sponsors could get their money's worth.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845

Ps. Don't give me crap about "the driver should keep enough in reserve and not go off in the first place." This is rally racing, not pansy ass track racing. Even the best make mistakes.

 

[jeffy]

ProRally/National - DNF
ClubRally/Regional - continue, provided you pose no delay to the running of the event.
(So if it's "in" on a turn-around stage, you're out, papa)

 

[jeffy]

>Even the best make mistakes.
Ya have to agree w/ Dennis on that -but I thought it was interesting that in my drivers school w/ Vic Elford he said "this stuff about having to go 11/10th's and go off to know where 10/10th's is - is a bunch of BS"

Sounds like a new thread here eh?