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My dad used to make me debate him every night at the dinner table. He wanted me to be an attorney. You guys fight like he and I used to. That's great! I love to debate so lets get at it.

Again however this is just my opinon and not that of the SCCA, RA, Mitsubishi, Subaru, RA, or even my very own AFR.

I don't know where to start but let's go with club rally.

Personally, I don't like the fact that club and pro rally are lumped together. In my opinion, ProRally should be operated by SCCA Pro Racing like World Challenge. I have asked why this isn't so. From the answers I have received, my best guess is that Rally in general is a money losing operation for the SCCA and Pro Racing can't afford to take on a money loser so until we can turn a profit rally isn't going to move. This is just a guess, you will have to ask Steve or Garrett for a more complete answer. I may be wrong about this. Again, this is only my opinion and not the official opinion of the AFR Rally Team.

I agree that club rally needs help but do you really want me to get involved? Or do you just want me to hand over a bunch of money to pay for it and then just leave you alone to play? I hope not. It doesn't work that way. As soon as I hand over money I expect a lot of things in return for it. Whether it is a club or not, as soon as a sponsor hands over money it instantly becomes a business and it needs to run like a business. No matter what the situation, as soon as you bring in a sponsor they are going to have a degree of control over what you are doing. If you don't like that then don't ask for any money. Racing, in any form, is not a charity.

It doesn't seem to me that people realize how little money the SCCA has to spend. They can't afford to pay for organizers to put on rallies either club or pro. The need sponsors to pay for just about everything. The TV contract is a perfect example. That is 100% paid for by Mitsubishi, Subaru, and the Air Force Reserve. None of your membership dues go towards that. If we didn't pay for it then there would be no national exposure for SCCA rally. Is no rally on TV a bad thing? Depends on your point of view. The PRPP is the same way. The reason organizers will get money next year is because the sponsors put it there. I think the organizers want it. Everyone at the Oct 1st meeting sure seemed like they were very interested.

Anyway, I restate my point from my first post. I do not want to get involved in club rally because if I did I would have to ask for some control over it. I don't want to do that. The competitors should be the only ones making decisions for club rally. I want it to grow but all I can do is hope for the best. I can't get involved from a business standpoint because right now it does make any sense to do it.

It kills me to see that people blame the SCCA, and people like me, for hurting club rally. I will say it again. The SCCA does not have to money to support club or pro rally on their own. They do however have a group of sponsors who are willing to sponsor ProRally. Should they turn that money down? Ok, then club and pro rally still have no money. What does that help? Have you looked at the club finances in Fast Track?

The SCCA doesn't have the right to take my sponsorship money and spend it however they want. They take that in an agreement that I will get certain things in return for it. For me that is a TV and print package and the PRPP. We know the organizers need more resources to put on ProRallies and we are getting those resources to them, as best we can, through the PRPP. If they took that money and suddenly gave it to fund club rallies then they would find themselves on the losing end of a court case very quickly. This shouldn't surprise anyone.

I hope that the SCCA, the club rally organizers, and the participants are successful in building club rally. I will help anyway I can short of handing over money because I have none to give. If ProRally becomes very profitable for the AFR rest assured I will make a case to my bosses to allow some money in our budget to help club rally. That is the best I can do. I'm sorry if it is not enough.

Now Wild West.

Yes, Wild West was at the Oct 1st meeting and they played a very important role. I will repeat I like the event and I hope they stay in the championship. But the fact is that the SCCA is the sanctioning body and the rallies in the championship need to get along with the sanctioning body. It is a two way street, but if they can't get along what are the options? The SCCA isn't going to shut down the championship because one rally doesn't agree with them. They are going to continue on with the other events with whom they do seem to work well. Look back into the history of rally. Rallies come and go in a championship all the time. I hope it doesn't happen but..what else do you want me to say or do?

I hope we give Wild West approximately $22,000 or more in support, in the future, as part of the PRPP. I will make sure that it is always availible to them if they wish to work with the sanctioning body to be a cohesive, consistant, supportive member of the SCCA ProRally Championship. In the end, however, the sanctioning body defines what is meant by cohesive, consistant, and supportive. It's the same in NASCAR. What else do you want a sponsor to say?

Just so you know the facts, I didn't know about the letter from the PRB until about 1 hour before the end of the meeting in Topeka. For what that is worth.

OK, now about me being "a SCCA guy"

Why does that offend people? All I am telling you, up front with no emotion, is where we plan to spend our advertising money next year. It's a business decision. We have studied CNAR and OLN and Ramada Express and we have decided that the SCCA ProRally package is, FOR US, a more cohesive package on an established racing network with a better more consistant schedule. I can't afford to be in both places. THAT IS ONLY FOR US. It does not mean the the events are no good or there is something wrong with OLN. IT JUST DOESN'T WORK FOR US. As far as not wanting to get involved with the WRC, I know that if the WRC ever showed up on these shore the money I have to spend wouldn't be enough to buy me bumper stickers on trash cans. However, TV ads on WRC broadcasts are still a pretty good deal and if we can shake loose some more money you MAY see some AFR ads on WRC broadcasts on Speed. It's on my wish list.

Here is something that may surprise you.

I think Ray Hocker is awesome. I think we will look back in 20 years and see that he is the prototypical rally organizer for the 21st century because he is trying to do this for a living, which I think is necessary for this sport to grow, and because he puts on a great show.

We had a great time at Ramada Express last year. The TV show was first class and we had real drama with fixing Tim's wiring harness in the alloted 45 minutes. Plus the special stages on Sunday were just great.

Ray and I talk all the time. I have literally begged him to put Ramada Express in the SCCA championship. But he has other goals for that race and that's cool. He and I argue all the time but when we are done we can still go out to dinner, have a nice time, and talk about the stuff we do agree on like the awesome plans he has for Rim next year. I really look forward to working with him there.

The bottom line is I respect the guy a lot even though we disagree with each other's business decisions. It is never personal. If we find common ground we will work together a lot in the future. I hope we do - he and his wife are both great people.

Anyone who is angered or upset by where we decide to spend money really needs to think about therapy. There is no point in discussing those decisions as they are completely subjective. Most companies would post their internal decisions on a place like this. I am because I want you to know what is really going on. I reserve the right to change my mind about posting it, however.

I have noticed that there are a lot of personal attacks on this forum. Just so you know, they hurt the sport. I'm glad that I got involved before I read Specialstage for the first time because if someone sent me a proposal and I came across this place in doing research I wouldn't have touched this sport with a maverick missile. For what it is worth.

Keep shooting until you run out of ammo

Greg

P.S. Don't call me arrogant. Anyone who knows me knows that I am anything but arrogant. I am trying to be honest with you and tell you what I see from my position. All changes in this sport go through SCCA management, the PRB, and the BOD. Don't make the mistake of thinking that I have any more power then you do with these people.
 
G

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As a "big" sponsor- do you think you are getting your moneys worth out of the package? What kind of benefits have you seen as a result of your involvement?

Obviously you've decided to re-up with the program, charge ahead, and grow promotions for next year.

What would help other ProRally guys draw in more/bigger sponsors?

The ideas about the benefits would translate fairly well to Club rally guys looking to sell the program, or to events sanctioned by other entities, so regardless of your affliations, your perspective is unique.

It seems fairly rare to have someone on the other end of the wallet talking about the program, so I'm curious as to what it's all about :)
 

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Who speaks for the SCCA?

>I hope we give Wild West approximately $22,000 or more in
>support, in the future, as part of the PRPP. I will make
>sure that it is always availible to them if they wish to
>work with the sanctioning body to be a cohesive, consistant,
>supportive member of the SCCA ProRally Championship. In the
>end, however, the sanctioning body defines what is meant by
>cohesive, consistant, and supportive. It's the same in
>NASCAR. What else do you want a sponsor to say?

What are you talking about?

The ProRallyBoard has informed Wild West organizers that we are NOT on a ProRally in 2003. We have been told to put on another ClubRally for "observation," whatever that means, and we might, maybe, someday be reconsidered for reinstatement. We weren't ask to fix anything, we were told the Wild West was out.

Now a ProRally Sponsor is telling us he's reserving $22,000 (but it's not really going to be $22k when you do the math) for the Wild West, if we somehow agree to be "cohesive, constant, supportive," however you define that.

I get real confused by the SCCA doublespeak. I'm a Wild West organizer, I'm going to a meeting next week to talk about our future. I'm sure that the many of the SCCA's conflicting voices will be heard at that meeting, but which one should I believe?

I'd sure like to hear one voice for the SCCA, speaking as if they understood the meaning of words like "cohesive, constant, supportive."

Jim Culp
wildwestrally.com
 

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> The SCCA isn't going to shut down the championship because one rally doesn't agree with them.

Sorry to break this to you but WW is not the first or only event to have issues with the SCCA.

Your comments about Ray Hocker are interesting. If WW became an ARSG/RSNA event that would be pretty cool.

As a competitor at WW 2003, the only issue we had with the organization was a mess up with time card duplication. Everything else went smoothly from my perspective way in the back, including the management of the fire danger/resched.

All events have issues of some sort. Organizers and the sanctioning bodies are supposed to work together to improve the events.

It seems to me that the SCCA is using the stick and not the carrot.

Glenn
 

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Greg wrote:
>All
>changes in this sport go through SCCA management, the PRB,
>and the BOD. Don't make the mistake of thinking that I have
>any more power then you do with these people.

Hmmm. Elsewhere you wrote since you (or AFR) are partially funding the series, so you expect some degree of control.

I, on the other hand, as a SCCA member and active competitor, can't even get them to correct the typos in the rulebook.

alan
 

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>P.S. Don't call me arrogant. Anyone who knows me knows
>that I am anything but arrogant. I am trying to be honest
>with you and tell you what I see from my position.

Personally, I don't think you are being arrogant. I truly appreciate your candor and wish the folks running rally at SCCA would do the same.

alan
 
G

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>Anyone who is angered or upset by where we decide to spend
>money.....


I am neither angry nor upset, however as a rallyist and
tax payer I wish my tax dollars were being spent elsewhere
than on ProRally.

The Air Force is not a business. It is one of many
government agencies that we are forced to pay for at
gun point.
 

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... and one more thing

About that $22k... before the big bucks sponsors prepay next year's entry fees to the 2004 organizers, it would be really neat if they could make good on their 2003 entry fees.

Not to single anybody out for blame, but I know my US credit card is good in Oxford, so why wouldn't a UK credit card work in Olympia? Checks or even banque drafts would work too.

Jim Culp
wildwestrally.com
 

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This is almost as good as watching Dr. Phil. ;)


Nobody likes to have something taken away from them and I feel for the folks in the NWR. They have for years been producing some of the best damn Rallies out there. Not only do they have one Pro rally on the National Calendar, they have two.

Now from a Organizers stand point, some wish to be no more than a Club event..Rally, BBQ, drive home, thats it.
Then you have the other extreme..The Organizer that wants all the headaches..Sponsors, SCCA National, Maunfactures, TV..but thats there dream, to produce a National event.
And once you make it, there is no guarentee's that you will stay there. There will aways be events trying to come up, just like you once did.
As a Competitor you are competing against other teams, as an Organizer you are competing against other events..and thats why we do what we do..for the challenge.

Rallying is one of the fastest growing motorsports in America, and I think it is great to see the competition out there..it is only going to make these events that much better, and with the PRBB offering funds to the Organizer just aides this growth.

I think this is a wake up call to all the Organizers out there that have been on the calendar for years...there are new Organizers out there that want your spot, and are working overtime to get it.

Unless you have been sleeping, it has been no secret that Colorodo has been looking/ or has been looked at for being placed on the National calendar. Somebody was going to get bumped.

I don't sit on the PRB and I don't listen to the conversations the NWR has with National, but with what I have read from the members, it sounds like there is no love between the two, and from a buisness standpoint, I can see which event might be on the top of the list to get bumped.
Does this mean they can't come back? NO it doesn't. They are there own free agent. They can do what ever they want. They can choose to leave the santioning body of SCCA and go elsewhere. They can choose to stay as a Club event with SCCA and try for the National calendar for 2005.

My opinion...I want to see you stay, I want you to give notice to every other event that you are coming back and you want it bad.
You the NWR have the drive, the people and the expierence to get there. Take that drive/energy you all have inside of you right now, and make Oregon Trail the best PRO Rally of 2004.


Rally on,

Greg Montgomery
 
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>Unless you have been sleeping, it has been no secret that
>Colorodo has been looking/ or has been looked at for being
>placed on the National calendar.

Colorado was going to be the venue for an FIA event in
2000 or was it 2001 or was it 2002.......

I was called Rally USA.... not to be confused
with the other Rally USA.

It was great fun watching the press releases.
 

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ClubRally vs ProRally

Greg said:
"Personally, I don't like the fact that club and pro rally are lumped together. In my opinion, ProRally should be operated by SCCA Pro Racing like World Challenge. I have asked why this isn't so. From the answers I have received, my best guess is that Rally in general is a money losing operation for the SCCA and Pro Racing can't afford to take on a money loser so until we can turn a profit rally isn't going to move. This is just a guess, you will have to ask Steve or Garrett for a more complete answer. I may be wrong about this. Again, this is only my opinion and not the official opinion of the AFR Rally Team."

Greg,

I agree completely that Club and Pro should not be lumped together. Under the old amateur ProRally system (National/Divisional) it didn't matter. A professional team (like Libra) could pick the events suited to their enterprise, run against all the other "professionals" (like Joe's auto shop) and demonstate value to their benifactors. But, the true difference between a National Event and a Divisional Event was vertually nothing. For the "Divisional" (Club) competitor it was simply an opportunity to measure up against the bigger dogs. Sometimes, given the many variables in rally, local guys could place pretty well. Everybody felt good about that.

The old system had a low ceiling. It was great for local "professional" rally teams. But, it was really a system for amateurs that allowed true professionals to compete against them if they wanted too. It was THE place for anybody to learn how to rally. Plus it had a loose national stucture that was great for the American self image. That old system was perfect for an SCCA type of organization.

But that legacy was lost when SCCA decided to raise the bar (with tons of member input and approval) and created the Pro vs Club organizational split. ClubRally has been on the ropes since that time. ProRally took the main events and continues to do whatever it wants to "improve" them. That approach takes those few precious events even farther out of the ClubRally reach. In my view, the current ProRally Series with it's high ceiling, high dollar, high visibility aspirations should be spun off as an independent enterprise.

Let ProRally run fast....on it's own merit and it's own dime.

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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Greg

The Wild West rally is put on by the Northwest Region but Oregon Trail is put on by the Oregon Rally Group, which is the Rally arm of the Oregon Region of SCCA.

The Oregon Rally Group welcomes and appreciates all the support the Northwest region has and continues to give to the Oregon Rally Group and the Oregon Rally Group has also supported NW Region events. However the two events are put on by two different organizing committees in two seperate regions.

Just wanted to clarifiy

Thanks

Simon Levear
Oregon Rally Group
 

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>Greg
>
>The Wild West rally is put on by the Northwest Region but
>Oregon Trail is put on by the Oregon Rally Group, which is
>the Rally arm of the Oregon Region of SCCA.
>
>The Oregon Rally Group welcomes and appreciates all the
>support the Northwest region has and continues to give to
>the Oregon Rally Group and the Oregon Rally Group has also
>supported NW Region events. However the two events are put
>on by two different organizing committees in two seperate
>regions.
>
>Just wanted to clarifiy
>
>Thanks
>
>Simon Levear
>Oregon Rally Group


Simon I am aware of the two groups, but they use alot of the same volunteers, and are part of the Northwest Region as is San Francisco.. I am just trying to create a stronger bond as few will feel homeless without a National. Kinda like when there is a death in the family..relatives that you havent seen in years come out in support.
 

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Greg

Oregon and SanFrancisco are not part of Northwest Region.

I think you might be thinking of the NORPAC (Northern Pacific) Division. Oregon and SanFrancisco are part of NORPAC.

As a point of comparision CENDIV (Central Division) appears to me to include three Pro events on this years calandar, Sno Drift, Ojibwe, and LSPR. Also North East Division appears to have two Pro events, Maine, and STPR.

Thanks

Simon
 

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>Greg
>
>Oregon and SanFrancisco are not part of Northwest Region.
>
>I think you might be thinking of the NORPAC (Northern
>Pacific) Division. Oregon and SanFrancisco are part of
>NORPAC.
>
>As a point of comparision CENDIV (Central Division) appears
>to me to include three Pro events on this years calandar,
>Sno Drift, Ojibwe, and LSPR. Also North East Division
>appears to have two Pro events, Maine, and STPR.
>
>Thanks
>
>Simon

I stand corrected
 

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>Nobody likes to have something taken away from them and I
>feel for the folks in the NWR. They have for years been
>producing some of the best damn Rallies out there. Not only
>do they have one Pro rally on the National Calendar, they
>have two.

Just a small correction. Oregon Trail is put on by the Oregon Region's rally arm, the Oregon Rally Group. There is a lot of crossover between NWR and OR. We typically run at least one stage crew up to Shelton for their event(s) and they do the same for us. The distinction is geographic. OT is run by folks that live around Portland and the Willamette Valley, WW is run by folks that live around Tacoma, Shelton, and Seattle.

That said, there have been similar difficulties between our organization and some of the onsite representatives from SCCA National. I'm surprised, frankly, that WW got yanked and not OT. If anything, we have greater difficulties finding a spot on the calendar. Perhaps the folks that pushed the WW termination see the Oregon organization as being weaker and easier to push around. I hope that a bullying mentality isn't in the foremost thought for folks like Pete Lyons, but that is the impression a lot of us have.

>Unless you have been sleeping, it has been no secret that
>Colorodo has been looking/ or has been looked at for being
>placed on the National calendar. Somebody was going to get
>bumped.

I think there is plenty of room on the schedule for more events. It is unfortunate, though, that land-use requirements constrain a few events to a narrow band in the late-late spring and early summer. If an event can run outside that band, they should. There's plenty of room on the calendar.

andy
 

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RE: ClubRally vs ProRally

It would appear that Club rallies are suffering in other parts of the country for various reasons. I for one, want no part of any sponsorship money from SCCA so that they can dictate how my event is run. We have an extremely successful rally series here in SoCal, due to the long standing members of CRS, Mike and Paula, Ray Hocker et al, who will, with all the members assistance, continue to make it the success and possibly the envy of other regions and I'm not decrying other region organisers efforts when I say that. It is successful because it did not bow down to SCCA's requirements to fall in line with their way of thinking. I hope that SCCA goes the way of the big sponsors with their PRO rally efforts and leaves the grass roots enthusiasts to prove again and again that we can survive without them.
 

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RE: ClubRally vs ProRally

Greg;

Well written but I agree to disagree.

Who are the people you are trying to attract as a sponsor ?

30-40 years old well-offish people or the 18-25 years old,fresh out of school, without a trust fund but enthusiastic, watching WRC on SpeedTv, spending at least a few hours a week in front of TV playing Colin McRae Rally, who can not afford to participate in a ProRally event but more than likely can run a few ClubRally events per year, and represents the people you would want to attract for USAF.

Call me crazy but If I were you I'd try to invest in the later group.

Cheers

M.Samli
 

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RE: ClubRally vs ProRally

Call me crazy but If I were you I'd try to invest in the later group.

Your Crazy!:+ That is exactly what he is doing. Have a look at these Pro Rally spectators, looks like his target audience to me

http://www.subaru.net/events/2003/stpr/morgan/images/STPR019.jpg

http://www.subaru.net/events/2003/wildwest/morgan/images/43.jpg

If you can afford to actually compete, even at a club rally level, it is quite likely you have a job and are not looking to join the military.

Look around at a rally next time, the 30-40 year old well-offish people spectating are in the minority
 
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