i would rather save 5k up front than spend 5k more on a chance at getting some prize money.
plus i think that a dealership would have a good thing going if they were to sponsor a non current model spec series. why? IIRC dealerships make the bulk of their profit on used car sales. what better way to show that their old cars are worth buying than to show how tough they are by rallying them.
I'd rather see a spec AWD class, but that is because I have mostly competed with AWD (only 2 events with RWD).
The vote doesn't fully reflect my thought process:
1a) Due to time constraints and percieved safety I would prefer a professionally installed cage
1b) I would want a cage that looks like a WRC cars cage
2) I would want the most affordable package, so bolting in suspension and other add-ons is no big deal
3) The lower the cost the more entrants
4) Current and future model cars are an overall better idea (directed to the 2.2 spec proposals, I love the idea but think we should always look forward not past, so the 2.5 engine makes more sense for the future, the other option is an equalizing weight factor like the Miata Spec serieswhich would allow both engines)
5) I prefer AWD, not necassarily turbo: Sube 2.5 and Mazda 6 come to mind
6) I entered PGT to be able to compete in close to equal or equal cars, unfortunately my car is getting a little old and uncompetitive (especially with the completely unwarranted restrictors) and I have not been competing enough to be competitive -- my true desire is to enter a class where the cars are equal and driver skill and car maintenance are the primary factors to success. (I may not win but at least I'll know I did my best.)
7) Limits on cheating -- seen too many cars being called 'legal' and even being advertised for sale with clearly illegal parts, not knowing the rules is a very lame excuse
8) Contingency is not as important as initial investment (to me). The less expensive the initial investment the more entrants (yes I know its listed above). My belief is that you'll attract a strong number of entrants over 2-3 years with a stable rules package and regional and national points series. Like the JWRC this would be the class to prove your abilities. Even if I could not put together a national program, I would enjoy the level playing field competition. And think it would be easiest to use good results to capture sponsorship, skill would be less debateable and if you were good you would have a solid easily understod story to try and attract sponsors.
Cost of start-up looks like a hurdle if the early results are anything to go by.
When VWoA started up the Scirocco and Rabbit series', they gave out a few unsaleable cars to the faithful to get the ball rolling. Our problem is that the cars need titles and be road-worthy/legal. Some engineering cars could be used as shell replacements for totaled titles but that's another barrier to overcome. Does Steve have any interest or is this just an idea you're floating?
-Non current cars go for cheaper at the auction, but MAY be harder to get sponsorship. Value to manufacturer is definitely diminished as you are not racing a product that is on the showroom floor. (It works for Mazda with spec Miata, tho...only early cars allowed.) Then there's the fact that current body styles aren't current for very long anymore.
-Yes, the cars have to be titleable. Yes this sucks.
-I personally prefer non-turbo for this cuz the power potential for any normally aspirated engine with a sealed ecu is much more controllable than when you introduce boost. This helps address your "cheating" concern.
-Is there an amount of contingency that would entice you to build a current car instead of an old one? $3000/National win?
-I've tossed the idea around with folks from different car companies. None of us know where the market is, though. Knowing how much people are willing to pay for what level of involvement is the first step. Offering a package that no one wants to pay for is silly and a waste of time.
-It should be noted that any company that gets involved would expect you to run the following year in that car. If you can't get the thing built in a year's timeframe, then you'd probly better bow out or choose number 1. A letter of intent to compete would be likely...for a minimum of X events. (3? 4?)
- The spec series would benefit from having all the cost numbers put together today, but the competition not to begin until next year. (Save up, build up, plan to compete...)
- Additional benefit would be gained by ensuring the program was as long as possible - 5 years, minimum 3? I believe the number of entrants would be higher in year two than year one provided the competition was good
- If I were to do this I could commit to 3 events probably 4 in the first year. Subsequent years are debateable, could be more or less depending on life, but would only be able to commit to a year initially
$$$ willing to (easily) spend on the car (initial investment):
--- 2wd econo box, with cage and suspension and race bits: $12-15,000
--- 2wd GTI, SVT type car with cage and suspension: $15,000-$22,000
--- AWD econobox with all the bits: $18,000-$22,000
--- AWD Sporty car (2.5 RS or ?) with all the bits $22,000 - $25,000
Other thoughts spec tires: Silverstone (cheap) limited to one set and spares for an event.
Spec everything: filters, hoses, gas, seats, rally computers...
Try and include everthing in the package, try and keep the cars as consistent as possible. (would be nice to make these cars models of Safety equipment: nets, seats, hans, belts, cages, fire systems...)
I could see allowing upgrades for seats, harnesses, rally computers, fire systems, if base package was not optimized.
-The cars sold fully prepared for 35,500 AUD and the base price of a 2.5RS is 32,990. It goes on to say "Subaru Australia are currently in the process of sourcing some more cars for the 2005 season, details of which will be available in the next few months." This leads me to believe that the cars were pretty much gimmes from Subaru and the money went to equipment and prep. Generous of Subaru.
-"Even the competitors on the smallest budgets are expecting to have spent $100,000 by the end of the season (including buying the car)." That's about 75,000USD. I think its great they found enough people to run them at that price. Take away the purchase price and they did a whole season on about 48,000USD. Cheap for professional motorsports. But I don't think that's OUR market. That's the purpose of this poll. To see how WE differ from other rally markets.
-The middle third of the article describes how the car was fun, but needed more power. Read a little into it and you can see the gearing was off. I'd like to think we could come up with a spec of car that's more fun to drive for less money with 2wd...but I might be wrong. Maybe you need to limit the power to make the car reliable enough so you can just change the oil and service the shocks and enter another rally.
Yeah Lurch, $35K??? Is that what it would take in the US? VW was selling the Polo challenge cars in the UK for like $15-17k IIRC - that's a new car, already built to Group N spec. Can that not be done here? Or was VW heavily subsidising the cost of the car (over half of it)???
Wouldn't $20k for a new, built, 1.6 or 2 liter car be reasonable to achieve? That's if the manufacturer could be bothered to sell a bunch of units without interiors, sound deadening, underbody coating, ABS, air bags etc.
See. I bought a brand new, just off the truck, 2004 2 liter VW Golf for just over $15k at the dealer.
The thing has:
Sound deadening materials
Interior finishing materials
Underbody protective coating
Power door locks
I figure $10k for the base car without all these unnecessary parts, $10k for rally preparation to basic Group N specs. Or maybe a $12k/$8k split.
If there ever is a spec class I want in. We have been talking about this since the Dawooes, and most recently right before the Mistubishi pull out. I like the idea that they had, of an east and west championship with a central runoff, (can I call it a runoff now?)
To get it right, a manufacturer would almost certainly need to fund a spec series to a point. This would have to be managed by a person that knows what's going on(as far as specing the car) to ensure the car is a "rally car", and not a sticker package on a POS. With out a real rally car, you'll have no interest.
Look to the 206 cup as the perfect prototype. I wonder how much Pug has invested in the managment, parts developement, and the series in general. Maybe if we had some rough numbers on what it takes them to put on their series is would be helpful? Those cars are nice and quick, have good diff, and suspensions. It would be hard to prep a car say like a VW, or Focus to the same level of performance for a reasonsable amount of money.
I don't think we have the market quite yet for a good spec series, unless a manufacturer were to be real generous.
Quite a few capable US organizations have been trying, nothing yet.
The srt-4 seems to be a likely FWD car for a spec class other then it being turbocharged. I am sure some DC fan could tell me why you couldn't put the diff and tranny from the srt-4 into the sxt neons (if you didn't want a turbocharged option) and that leaves suspension and cage.....
Seems to me that those are pretty cheap and that DC has in the past been pretty heavily involved in funding contingency programs and supporting hobby racers. Neon ACR ring a bell.....
>One manufacturer nobody mentioned would be Dodge.
>The srt-4 seems to be a likely FWD car for a spec class
>other then it being turbocharged. I am sure some DC fan
>could tell me why you couldn't put the diff and tranny from
>the srt-4 into the sxt neons (if you didn't want a
>turbocharged option) and that leaves suspension and
>Seems to me that those are pretty cheap and that DC has in
>the past been pretty heavily involved in funding contingency
>programs and supporting hobby racers. Neon ACR ring a
Doug, Pete and the Mopar guys are exactly what it would take. Those guys could spec a car correctly.
Anything with a turbo is a bad idea for a spec car, just another system to take care of.
having a turbo was just a suggestion of a car model.
I agree speccing a turbo car for a spec class would be a bad idea at this or most any other time.
But last I checked that largely OEM or OEM kit neon was kicking some ass and finishing events pretty well, using some of those bits if possible on a NA neon (pretty cheap cars too) could make for a well performing spec car.
>I don't think we have the market quite yet for a good spec
>series, unless a manufacturer were to be real generous.
It isn't a matter opf being generous, it's about marketing decisions.
If the manufacturer can decide to 'sideline' a dozen cars and keep the interior basic and keep the radios out and so on, or even earmark a handfull of cars that they will sell to rallyists that buy into the program at their (distributor, not dealer) dead cost then they really aren't spending a penny. If the car is committed to a spec class that the manufacturer can hype, then in many ways this makes CHEAP sense. Even if they gave away the cars, How many 2.5RSs could Subaru GIVE AWAY for the money they spent on their Subaru USA rally team?