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Geez, where are the rest of the results?? I know for a fact that a lot more people competed and finished than what they're showing...

Ah, I see, in order to get "the rest of the story" you have to download the "large excel file". What's up with not posting full and complete results?

Just curious. Glad to see something posted.

KT
 

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RE: Wild West & St. Agathe

Not that one event would pull many competitors from another as although they were held the same weekend, they were on different coast but some interesting observations worth mentioning.
WildWest result's link above, St Agathe results here. http://www.rallyscoring.com/results/Resu2003/defi2003/index.htm

St Agathe had 36 national teams enter, Wild West 27 national teams. Each also offered regional/ClubRally events.
The location of both events are within a couple hours drive from the US/Canadian border. The Canadian event drew 17 US resident competitors, the US event drew 2 Canadian resident competitors. The Canadian regional had 7 US competitors, the US ClubRally had no Canadian entries.
 

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RE: Wild West & St. Agathe

Dave that's an interesting observation.

What's the likely cause?

Entry Fees...or, as one Canadian competitor put it, for the added cost of upgrading to run in the WW ProRally, you could spend the difference on running a Canadian Regional Rally in BC or AB - entry fees plus hotel, with $$ left for gas,etc!

WW ProRally only Entry Fee $900 USD
WW ClubRally only Entry Fee $450 USD
--------------------------------
difference = $450 USD (or $630 Cdn @ 1.40 Cdn per US dollar)

WW Fees Saved $630 Cdn, less:
Mtn Trials Entry Fee $375 Cdn
Mtn Trials Hotel $150 Cdn ($65/night+taxes)
residual $105 (for gas, food, etc)

As I said, interesting observation.

It seems that comparing an "FIA format" national event to a "plain old" national rally is starting to show signs of a bad trend. Remember Charlevoix before 2000? - huge fields of entries, combined tarmac and gravel stages...now there are fewer entries and the Rallye de Quebec appears to be insolvent.

Cheers,

Bill Westhead
 

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RE: Wild West & St. Agathe

Ditch this ridiculous trend of FIA sanctioning and bring the competitors back.

I'll never go back the Charlevoix as long as it's run under the FIA banner.

"It's about us, not the competitor." - FIA motto

Brian
 

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RE: Wild West & St. Agathe

I hear ya, Brian. Charlevoix was always on my list "to do." Not a chance I will miss LSPR for it anymore.
 

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RE: WildWest,, St Agathe, Charlevoix

Most of the St Agathe National competitors participated in the recce which added to their expenditure equalling the more expensive entry fee of US National. Interesting that the 'International' FIA WildWest had no recee and the regular old St Agathe national did. So cost alone was not the difference in total competitors entered.
The number of border-hopping competitors made the difference. Many US competitors going to Canada. Zimmer who ran primarily in the states last year is running exclusively in Canada this year. And besides the drivers towing to Canada, there are many US codrivers competing there; Hendrickson, Williams, APerry, JRowland, Goldfarb, myself and Jeff Becker who has made the trip 3 times already this season.
Likely there is also more licensed competitors on the east coast than the west coast but to what degree, I don't know.

Charlevoix! That is what we've been pondering ourselves the past couple days. We had hoped they would have changed the format back to the 'old days' for this year's event now that the FIA interest is lessened with the annoucement that Mexico had won the bid. My father-in-law was intent on entering until yesterday when he learned that it is not the same format as when he ran it years ago before FIA. Even if you are not participating in the recce, scrutineering and final registration is days before the rally starts.
Some of the conversation amongst competitors waiting for stages to open at St Agathe was about how to make Charlevoix more affordable. A 'no-recce, use last year's notes' agreement was mentioned. Think if the stages are repeated from last year, you'll see at least a couple teams not doing recce this year.
 

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RE: WildWest,, St Agathe, Charlevoix

RE: No Club results: I thought that too, but if you click on the other results links besides the first one, or save the large excel file, you get all the results for everyone.

Not sure why the organizers did it this way, guess I'll have to ask John Forespring.

RE: East vs West Coast number of licensed competitors: most of the Club competitors are on the West Coast, most of the Pro competitors are on the East Coast. This is because of the layout of club vs. pro events; West Coast has more Club events than Pro, vice versa for the East. Plus, traditionally, West Coast had more events period, so a lot of East Coasters go up to Canada just for more seat time if nothing else. I say traditionally, because the East Coast in general are actually trying to put on more Club events, which is fantastic! It means people can actually save money on the licensing fees and have more to put towards the car/entry fee/etc.

RE: Using last year's route book: This only works if the organizers go out every year, and make sure the route book still works for the roads. In this case, notes and route book can be interchangeable in the above sentence. I wouldn't run an event if I knew that the organizers just recycled last year's stuff without checking it. From experience, the roads can change dramatically from year to year just from weather alone! That's not including our impact from racing on the roads; impact from logging activities; or impact from forest usage by the regular public.

RE: No Recce at the "International" Wild West: on a side note, how many international entries did they have, anyway? I'm not sure American rally is ready for the expense of recce to the organizers. At least, we're not ready until SCCA or another sanctioning body steps up to actually assist organizers do their jobs, instead of coming in the Friday before and "taking over". :) Recce would make the notes and the rally safer for the competitors experienced at note-making, but for those of us who've never done it before... I'm not sure but that we wouldn't need a special classroom section on writing notes prior to going out to write the actual notes. Does this make sense?

Thoughts?

KT
kd7yct
 

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RE: WildWest,, St Agathe, Charlevoix

>RE: No Recce at the "International" Wild West: on a side
>note, how many international entries did they have, anyway?
>I'm not sure American rally is ready for the expense of
>recce to the organizers.

It is not ready for the expense of the rest of the dog and pony show to the competitors, either. It was NOT (in my opinion, of course) an "International" rally. Just the same "international" competitors that would be running the SCCA rally anyway. But to demand the extra days (Boy, that first "leg" was a killer, wasn't it?...from ramp to impound?) is ludicrous. Let's take all the drivers, co-drivers, crew people, rally workers, etc. who were there for those extra 2 days and add all their wages together for two WASTED work days. If you can tell me that they got a larger return on investment in sponsorship, FIA brownnosing, etc. than OUR time was worth, then I will shut up. It would be different if there was rallying on those days...even if there was a BIG reception. Most locals I talked to didn't know there was a rally going on, though.

Truth is, I will take a rally with timely, accurate scoring, efficient schedule, and good (even adequate) communication over a rally with none of these, but with a start ramp, pomp and circumstance and FIA officials. Cover the basics before you cover the fluff.


>I'm not sure but that we wouldn't need a special
>classroom section on writing notes prior to going out to
>write the actual notes. Does this make sense?

I think so. I would suggest first using the Jemba system to help you develop your vocabulary for describing things. Then take a class like Alex G. and Ian B. offered at Tim O's this year. The notes I made for Cherokee a few years ago aren't fit for toilet paper. The notes I can make now after the Jemba experience AND the class would make me faster and safer than the Jemba notes.
 

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RE: Wild West & St. Agathe

>I hear ya, Brian. Charlevoix was always on my list "to do."
> Not a chance I will miss LSPR for it anymore.

I am trying to figure out how to do both, but I am a co-driver, so I just have my gear bag to transport. Recce registration for Charlevoix is roughly 24 hours after LSPR finishes up and trying to get from middle of nowhere Michigan to middle of nowhere Quebec in that time frame is tight. ("Middle of nowhere" simply refers to their proximity to a full schedule airport and was not intended as negative comments against those areas.)

alan
 

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RE: WildWest,, St Agathe, Charlevoix

Note: I was not implying that recce should have been offered at WildWest.
I'm all for stagenotes being offered at every event.

Eastern divsions have more ClubRally competitors, just less ClubRallies.
 
G

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RE: WildWest,, St Agathe, Charlevoix

>RE: No Recce at the "International" Wild West: on a side
>note, how many international entries did they have, anyway?
>I'm not sure American rally is ready for the expense of
>recce to the organizers. At least, we're not ready until
>SCCA or another sanctioning body steps up to actually assist
>organizers do their jobs, instead of coming in the Friday
>before and "taking over".


I don't think there was much blame to be placed on the SCCA for what went on at Wild West. I've read a lot of whinging about how the SCCA messes up this and that, and I certainly laugh at some of their policies, but disorganization starts locally. Don't expect an insurance and PR provider to provide salvation from holes in planning.

The shakedown stage created some unsafe conditions on a public road.

Rally cars were parked half on/half off the travelled portion of a busy road. If this feature is to be re-used, it would have been trivial to ask all support vehicles to park on the north (I think it was north) side of the road and queue up the competition vehicles on the shoulder of the opposite side to avoid interfering with traffic.

I will say I thought scrutineering went well and was efficient. It would have been more pleasureable if it was something that could have been taken care of Friday, though.

Axe the extra day(s) of fluff and the parc expose in Olympia and just move it all to Shelton. I thought the Parc Expose in downtown Shelton was "cooler" than the one at the college. Maybe I just enjoyed window shopping for cool old plastic models, though.
 

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RE: notes

Eric, you're right, CT's notes Shindle and I made last year were worse than laughable. We did everything but take soil samples of the first 10 corners, then we figured out it'd take us 2 weeks at that pace to do the recce. To make it to the end in time, we cut some corners and the notes made almost no sense at speed. Its hard to develop your own system from scratch.
With experience from the Jemba system, Defi's notes Rusty and I made turned out pretty good. I'd suggest to all the Club guys who have the chance to use them but don't - to pay the extra money and get them. It is a class in itself and we all know school pays off in the long run and a $150 tuition is pretty cheap actually. Especially when you can use the textbook that same weekend.
---
Looking at http://www.rallyracingnews.com/index.html
I remember seeing that the bulk of US competitors are in the NE so that can't hurt as far as getting cross-over entries in Canada. But besides Julien Pilon and a couple others who have tested the waters in the US, it looks like the CDN racers are happy staying up there (and I know why).
rz
 

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RE: Wild West & St. Agathe

>>I hear ya, Brian. Charlevoix was always on my list "to do."
>> Not a chance I will miss LSPR for it anymore.

>I am trying to figure out how to do both.

Buffam was at both last year. He may have missed a day of recce but still won the rally.
 

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RE: Wild West & St. Agathe

>>I hear ya, Brian. Charlevoix was always on my list "to do."
>> Not a chance I will miss LSPR for it anymore.
>
>I am trying to figure out how to do both, but I am a
>co-driver, so I just have my gear bag to transport. Recce
>registration for Charlevoix is roughly 24 hours after LSPR
>finishes up and trying to get from middle of nowhere
>Michigan to middle of nowhere Quebec in that time frame is
>tight. ("Middle of nowhere" simply refers to their
>proximity to a full schedule airport and was not intended as
>negative comments against those areas.)
>
>alan

I was trying to figure out how to do that also, with the proviso that I was going to the Library for a bit after the rally so I wasn't counting on leaving Houghton before 7 am. Recce reg is 7 pm. It doesn't look possible in a car (16+ hours going across the top, about 20 via my house) and looks highly unlikely by airline. Is it a good commentary on events when I'm considering going to LSPR to (potentially) only work the event rather than going to Charlevoix to codrive....? Now if Charlevoix could have reduced the 1.5 days of fluff in between recce and the rally to maybe 0.5 days, and started the recce on Tuesday...

Adrian
 

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RE: notes

>But besides Julien Pilon and a couple others who
>have tested the waters in the US, it looks like the CDN
>racers are happy staying up there (and I know why).

Of course, another part of that is that for the last couple of years we've had a 60 cent dollar - now its over 70 cents, so maybe you'll see a few more Canadians.

Adrian
 

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RE: Wild West & St. Agathe

I figured my options as:
a) fly to MSP and rent a car for two weeks. Drive to Toronto almost immediately after LSPR to try and catch a ride with the Charlevoix driver and tow vehicle before he leaves for La Malbaie (leaving the rental car in Toronto), then driving back to MSP from Toronto after Charlevoix and the tow back.
b) fly to MSP and drive to LSPR. Drive back to MSP almost immediately after LSPR and catch a 6am or 7am flight to Quebec, QC, then wait for the Charlevoix driver to drive through and catch a ride to La Malbaie.

Neither prospect sounds very attractive right now.

alan
 

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RE: Wild West & St. Agathe

>
>I figured my options as:
>a) fly to MSP and rent a car for two weeks. Drive to
>Toronto almost immediately after LSPR to try and catch a
>ride with the Charlevoix driver and tow vehicle before he
>leaves for La Malbaie (leaving the rental car in Toronto),
>then driving back to MSP from Toronto after Charlevoix and
>the tow back.
>b) fly to MSP and drive to LSPR. Drive back to MSP almost
>immediately after LSPR and catch a 6am or 7am flight to
>Quebec, QC, then wait for the Charlevoix driver to drive
>through and catch a ride to La Malbaie.
>
>Neither prospect sounds very attractive right now.
>
>alan

I figured the drive to be:
Toronto-Houghton 12hrs
Houghton-La Malbaie 18hrs (22 via Toronto)
La Malbaie-Toronto 10hrs

Recce on Tuesday instead of Monday would make it work.

Your Fly/drive looks even worse, since Toronto to MSP is on the order of 20hrs.

Adrian
 

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RE: Wild West & St. Agathe

>>
>>I figured my options as:
>>a) fly to MSP and rent a car for two weeks. Drive to
>>Toronto almost immediately after LSPR to try and catch a
>>ride with the Charlevoix driver and tow vehicle before he
>>leaves for La Malbaie (leaving the rental car in Toronto),
>>then driving back to MSP from Toronto after Charlevoix and
>>the tow back.
>>b) fly to MSP and drive to LSPR. Drive back to MSP almost
>>immediately after LSPR and catch a 6am or 7am flight to
>>Quebec, QC, then wait for the Charlevoix driver to drive
>>through and catch a ride to La Malbaie.
>>
>>Neither prospect sounds very attractive right now.
>>
>>alan
>
>I figured the drive to be:
>Toronto-Houghton 12hrs
>Houghton-La Malbaie 18hrs (22 via Toronto)
>La Malbaie-Toronto 10hrs
>
>Recce on Tuesday instead of Monday would make it work.
>
>Your Fly/drive looks even worse, since Toronto to MSP is on
>the order of 20hrs.

Actually, the fly/drive is only driving MSP to Houghton and Houghton to MSP. Flying to Quebec implied flying back to MSP (and flying home to Seattle from there). I do most of my flying on Northwest, so I usually have to stop in MSP anyway.

Do you know if the co-driver has to be there for recce registration? At Defi, they did full event registration (aside from waiver signing and wrist bands) when we showed up for recce registration, so I am not sure if I needed to be there.

alan
 
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