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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Been sitting here pretty blitzed out today, recovering from a 20+ hour day+night site test, and thought I would put to you folks a question of why we are seeing such a large drop in entries, at least out east here? There have been highs and lows in the past, but this is about as low a low as I can remember.

Just seeking some opinions and thoughts, not much else. Definitely not starting a fight or anything.....!

Regards,
Mark B.
 

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don't cut
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>Been sitting here pretty blitzed out today, recovering from a
>20+ hour day+night site test, and thought I would put to you
>folks a question of why we are seeing such a large drop in
>entries, at least out east here? There have been highs and
>lows in the past, but this is about as low a low as I can
>remember.
>
>Just seeking some opinions and thoughts, not much else.
>Definitely not starting a fight or anything.....!
>
>Regards,
>Mark B.

Entry fees double what they were five years ago crowds out the little guy. Two competing series splits the top end entries. Lotsa middle guys are struggling to afford what are now middle guy cars like WRX's and older evos.


Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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I'll second, third, fourth or fifth that.. $$$ Fees!!!!

And the constant rule updates, too much $$$ invested.

Still love the sport though...
 

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Mark,

Are you coming to Rally NY?

I will be at NY....Missed TN because of inconsistency of available $$$ and high entry fees.

At TN, Mark Spence and I talked about getting a 2 car trailer and running in Canada next year. $280 entry fees and DEEEEEP competition anyone? 10-15 hour drives isnt really any more than Maine, Sandblast, Rally TN.....
 

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rule changes?

Ok, I'll bite, what rule changes are restricting entries?

The only changes that were more restrictive were #16 requiring the SFI/FIA roll cage padding, and #18 which requires roll cages be built to an existing specification.

All other bulletins pertaining to equipment were made in an effort to be more inclusive.

Frequent bulletins are used in other major racing series, typically on a weekly basis , to clarify and address issues as they appear.

Our roll cage rules will change for next year, the change will be to align our rules with NASA CARS, and somewhat to the FIA, again, we are trying to be more inclusive, and align our regulations with the rest of North America. All existing currently legal (2004 SCCA/2005 R-A rules) cages will continue to be legal.


RULES BULLETINS

Rules Bulletin #1 ProRally and ClubRally Referneces in the rule book
Rules Bulletin #2 2005 Rally America Championship Points
Rules Bulletin #3 2005 Rally America Driver and Co-Driver License Fees
Rules Bulletin #4 Group N in Regional Championship
Rules Bulletin #5 2005 Rally America Regional Championships
Rules Bulletin #6 SCCA license acceptance for RA Championships.
Rules Bulletin #7a Stage Notes for Novice Drivers
Rules Bulletin #8 Engine Controllers in PGT...more inclusive.
Rules Bulletin #9a Claims against legality of a competition vehicle.
Rules Bulletin #10 Open Class under 2,750cc adj. now 2,600lbs.
Rules Bulletin #11 Stage Start Interval.
Rules Bulletin #12 Annual Vehicle Inspections no longer required.
Rules Bulletin #13 alternate PGT inlet ducts allowed.
Rules Bulletin #14 Rally America accepts NASA Rally Sport® logbooks
Rules Bulletin #15 Use of Roll Cage ID Numbers discontinued
Rules Bulletin #16 SFI or FIA Roll Bar padding required
Rules Bulletin #17 NASA Rally Sport® Super Stock 1 Class entries allowed at STPR and MFR
Rules Bulletin #18 Roll Cage Clarifications, no more "alternate designs"
Rules Bulletin #19 Sockets for jack stands on Production and PGT vehicles now OK
Rules Bulletin #20 Speed Factors, Seeded Draw, and Start Intervals.

Other items, like firesuits,(Jens?) and restricors,(Aaron?), we're stuck with because requiring them is "generally accepted practice" in the rest of the rally world. Deviating from "generally accepted practice" leaves us open to liability...and remember 2003 wasn't that long ago.

High entry fees and $3/gal gas and too much time spent on other things kept me from entering some (brandX) rallies that I really wanted to do this year.

For me, saying it was politics or rules would have been an excuse, lack of discretionary cash and time would be the reason.
 

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Without sounding like I'm tooting my horn, I've seen from the turn around in PreGrid Members once again entering events, it's the MONEY and nothing more. Once we started paying Drivers to race Rally, even the measly $100 - $150 bucks per event, they started racing again.

I even got Janice Damitio back into a Rally Car! :D

In fact, I routinely get calls from Members telling me that the only reason why they got to an event was the extra support that PreGrid.com and the Sponsors it brought in gave them.

I'm happy to say that our Membership is getting paid and that it is helping them race. Thanks to RockStar Energy Drink, www.AllWheelsDriven.net, www.PDXSports.com, www.torquefreaks.com, www.pro-motionsigns.com, ChaseRace.com, KeyBank, GamePlan, Race Central and so many others...

The plan is to do more that just get people paid to race though... I'm working to get more Sponsors involved by giving them real, tangible financial returns for their Sponsorships that are measured in addition to their exposure. MONEY in their pockets for a change.

The way I figure it, the more valuable we become as a group to Sponsors, the easier it will be to bring capital to the Racers, the Events, the Series and Motorsports in general.

Sure it's a lofty idea... but it's WORKING!!! 10 cars and 12 Drivers at Wild West prove it.

So we solve the Money problem, we grow the sport and entries no longer "lull".

Sound like a plan? :)

Best,

Scott
[email protected]
 

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I have to agree with everything above.
last night I was looking at the entry list for oregon trail in 2002 and there were almost 80 entries.
This weekend they had around 30 for wild west.

you can put me in for $$$$ and rules

Chris Beebe
224 Datsun 510
 

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Rule changes do affect entries. I can name off the top of my head four competitors in Denver alone that either a) gave up and sold their cars or b) only run the hill climb series simply because of the novice driver rule change. Less Seed 8 drivers.

Bigger though is higher entry fees and higher costs. Competiting series will have a definite effect too. Along with competing rallies. Wild West will surely reduce the number of Cog entries being the weekend before. As many have complained about, Laughlin and Reno will compete for entries.

Solutions? Well, I think the novice rule is a good idea, but not in the way it is currently being implemented. Restricting drivers to two classes is not a bad idea in theory, but it simply won't be effective in practice. A better method needs to be looked at to handle novice competitors that isn't detremential to the sport.
 

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>Rules is bogus, rules always progress.
>
>My car was built in 2003ish, and none of the rule changes have
>really cost me more than $100 since then.
>
>On the other hand, entry fee's cost me almost $1,000/weekend.

Well I started building my group 5 car in 2002. Sure money, I've gotten married, had a baby, built a shop, etc. has played a big part. But the deal with the "newbie" rules really killed my enthusiasm. Just cause I haven't driven a rally car, in a rally, means I have to build another car( drop even more money on a grp 2 or p car) and start in that? I just don't get it, I guess.


I was actually hoping to get my car ready in 03', but club rally got cancelled so I stopped. It's actually cheaper to race on the street and pay tickets and higher insurance. But I don't.
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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And I am building a Merkur. I have the option of a lower budget 200-250 hp turbo Group 5 car, or a higher cost, higher budget NA setup to get around 180-200. I could have the G5 car ready by December. The NA setup would take me until next December. Just run Colorado Hill Climbs and NASA events with a G5 car versus a G2 car that would be slow and somewhat unimpressive at hill climbs and being able to run RA and NASA events? Plus the hill climbs will make money starting next year for the top three in AWD and 2WD so the G5 car would even have better returns for me. (side note: maintenance cost would be higher in the G5 car though)
 

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RE: rule changes?

>Ok, I'll bite, what rule changes are restricting entries?

My point about rules is not related to what is more restrictive in the past couple of years. My point is related to the current rules compared to 25 years ago. I don't live in a vacuum, and I understand most like the current changes, but I don't. I loved rallying in the 70's and early 80's. I hated it in '99 and '00.

Some examples that affected me:
1. Rotary factors. Putting a 3000lb car with 100hp and NO bottom end or gearing in PGT or Group5 was, in my opinion, ridiculous.
2. Being put in Group5, because I moved my battery into the passenger compartment (for safety reasons...not weight balance).
3. Suits.... I hate them. (some people like to extrapolate that to suggest I'm against helmets and roll cages, but they are wrong. I put a cage in my 911 long before they were required.)
4. Rules that permit removal of emission controls (granted it is a wink, wink thing). Here in CT we have emission testing etc, and it is a pain in the butt to change back and forth so I left them in.
5. Engines that have to be made by the same manufacturer as the car.

I can list some other stuff, but my point is: Regardless of money, rules are definitely a factor for me. (I am not speaking for anyone else. If the rules keep others away is for them to answer).

Short of making millions of dollars and being able to rent a team and car, being able to fly to events, etc., I'm out of it for good.
 

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excuses, excuses...

Why I haven't gotten going:

1) Rising entry fees, too expensive. Towing isn't getting cheaper, either.

2) I work almost every weekend. Limited vacation time.

3) Mostly caged Merkur shell stored 75 miles from residence (but not for long...see #4)

4) Buying house with two car garage (and room for barn) on dirt road 4 miles from where shell is currently stored so maybe I can finish building it before I'm 40, instead of spending 4 hours driving to and from the shell any day I want to do anything to it.

5) With newbie rules, I can't throw the either of the free stock bulletproof 175hp 2.3 turbo engines I have kicking around in my shell and run RA events. Instead I have to drop several grand to build (learn how to or have built) a normally aspirated engine/potential grenade that will make enough yank (175 hp) to get out of its own way on stage (that should get me a call from JV). Or do I run NASA and/or CARS?

6) I don't even want to think about what has to be changed on the cage I had partially built in 1999-2000. Yeah, I know, RTFM.

7) I probably should have bought a car instead of building, but I've been dreaming of a Merkur rally car since about 1992, waaaay before it was fashionable. }(

--Andrew Steere
somewhere in Nude Hamster
 

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RE: excuses, excuses...

>7) I probably should have bought a car instead of building,
>but I've been dreaming of a Merkur rally car since about 1992,
>waaaay before it was fashionable. }(

Merkurs are fashionable, eh? Who told you that? :)
 

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RE: excuses, excuses...

Must have been JVL.

On a more serious note, I'd say entry fees and too many championships/sanctioning bodies. In all honesty, wouldn't it be great we had multiple regional championships, one invitational event to decide the National Champion and one Sanctioning Body ?

Yet again, I still believe in World Peace and Santa.

Cheers
M.Samli
 

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Hope springs eternal

>Why I haven't gotten going:
>
>1)
>4) Buying house with two car garage (and room for barn) on
>dirt road 4 miles from where shell is currently stored so
>maybe I can finish building it before I'm 40, instead of
>spending 4 hours driving to and from the shell any day I want
>to do anything to it.
>
>5) With newbie rules, I can't throw the either of the free
>stock bulletproof 175hp 2.3 turbo engines I have kicking
>around in my shell and run RA events. Instead I have to drop
>several grand to build (learn how to or have built) a normally
>aspirated engine/potential grenade that will make enough yank
>(175 hp) to get out of its own way on stage (that should get
>me a call from JV). Or do I run NASA and/or CARS?

Quit snivelling, a decent Normal aspirated thing isn't too rough, get yer tail down to Billerica and check out every Supra they get.
Motor PLUS gearing will give you the yank you yearn for.
>
>6) I don't even want to think about what has to be changed on
>the cage I had partially built in 1999-2000. Yeah, I know,
>RTFM.
>
>7) I probably should have bought a car instead of building,
>but I've been dreaming of a Merkur rally car since about 1992,
>waaaay before it was fashionable. }(
>
>--Andrew Steere
>somewhere in Nude Hamster
Hey Fed-Ex Ground the strut bodies or everything so I can mod the bottoms into 2wd things and do the spring seats afresh.
Then when the suspension is all shiney and new, you will have to come up with more excuses why the car ain't done other than suspension.








John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

janvanvurpa (at) f4 (dot) ca

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 
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