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Discussion Starter #1
We've had an opportunity to run a couple of events up in Canada, which are recce events that allow a couple of reconnesaince passes at the stages, where detailed notes can be made.

I'm wondering why we don't do this more in the US? It seems to be the defacto standard everywhere else in the world, except for here.

I personally prefer it, for several reasons.

1) It is more challenging. One more aspect to the sport, and it is an art in and of itself. I think it is a great addition.

2) It is safer. Competitors are at least partially familiar with the roads before they run it. It has help my driving confidence quite a bit, and it seems that there are less 'offs'.

3) It can be cheaper. Don't have to pay for the Jemba notes. Running recce and creating your own notes cuts out $150+. Although if the recce is run the day before some teams may have additional hotel costs, etc. so there is a bit of a tradeoff. I personally would rather put that $150 towards an extra night in the hotel then to spend it on someone else's notes.

4) Evens the playing field a bit. Makes it easier for low-budget teams that don't purchase the Jemba notes to be competitive.


Is there a good reason why we don't do recce events now? Any reason why we should in the future?

Is it an issue of it being harder to organize? Insurance?

-k
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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We do recce for all the Colorado Hill Climb events.
Many NASA events have recce.

The reason it's not common practice in the US has to do with a few things. One is that it results in a higher amount of road usage and needed volunteers for more days so logistically is more difficult. Secondly there are many competitors, like myself, that have limited time off work, and while it may be cheaper to us, it means less overnight towing and such and more efficient use of vacation leave. Lastly, is what I'll call the old paradigm. There are many influential people that believe that recce is against the whole pure aspect of rally and that a true, pure rally should be only run on a route book. There is a theory that rally is more safe without recce because it slows cars down because they don't know what's ahead.
 

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I have mixed feelings on recce and notes, I like the blind rallys best.

Now that I have done a few rallys on notes I do not think one is safer than the other and I think the same holds true on recce, I would rather not make my own notes becasue for me the few times I have made mistakes have almost all been where I think I know the road or know how fast I can drive it from having been there before but I am wrong.

I am sure we will have all types of events over the next several years but I would like to raise my hand now and say pls keep at least some blind rallys. To paraphrase Michell Moton "For me this is rally to have car and not know where to go but be fastest"

Derek
 

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straight at T
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>We do recce for all the Colorado Hill Climb events.
>Many NASA events have recce.
>
>The reason it's not common practice in the US has to do with a
>few things. One is that it results in a higher amount of road
>usage and needed volunteers for more days so logistically is
>more difficult. Secondly there are many competitors, like
>myself, that have limited time off work, and while it may be
>cheaper to us, it means less overnight towing and such and
>more efficient use of vacation leave. Lastly, is what I'll
>call the old paradigm. There are many influential people that
>believe that recce is against the whole pure aspect of rally
>and that a true, pure rally should be only run on a route
>book. There is a theory that rally is more safe without recce
>because it slows cars down because they don't know what's
>ahead.

Add that recce can be more expensive than notes (especially if you have to have a recce car - eastern CARS events have required that you use something other than a rally car) and that extra road use may cause PR issues and you've covered most of the arguments in a nutshell.

It isn't a given that recce is the way all the rest of the world goes - Jemba exists because there was a need for it...

Adrian
 

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No one (locals, organizers, insurance carriers) want you in the woods longer than necessary.

Ultimately, hiding behind non-descript recce cars doesn't work either.

Anything can happen in the woods, even on low speed passes, so it is probably the extra liability risk that makes this practice unpopular or prohibited.
 

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Don't forget this reason as well. It just takes too much damn time. 90% of the competitors cannot afford to take the extra day off.
 

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>There is a theory that rally is more safe without recce
>because it slows cars down because they don't know what's
>ahead.

An unsubstantiated theory ... The data shows that there are significantly fewer 'offs' in recce events, and we have seen clear evidence of this in our regional events. Our first ever regional recce event had 22 cars start (a record entry) and 19 finish ... all of the DNFs were due to mechanical or other issues ... not because of the notes. (co-driver sickness caused one withdrawl from the event)

Some will say that accidenst will be worse because of the level of commitment ... but the 'thin end' competitors will commit to what ever they are driving.

While blind events are 'tradition' there is little doubt that local knowledge of the roads can play a hugh factor in the final results ... as such, recce does a lot to level the playing field.


Recce (real two pass recce), on a regional level, has been extremely well recieved in western Canada
 
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<We've had an opportunity to run a couple of events up in Canada,
<which are recce events that allow a couple of reconnesaince passes
<at the stages, where detailed notes can be made.

<I'm wondering why we don't do this more in the US? It seems to be
<the defacto standard everywhere else in the world, except for here.


You should know that we do full reconnaissance in the United States and have been doing it for years on all Rally New York events.

See www.RallyNewYork.com for reconnaissance regulations.

Similarly, all events of the United States Rally Championship, internationally listed by FIA, sanctioned by USAC and presented by NASA, have reconnaissance.

See www.unitedstatesrallychampionship.com

Recce has been the standard in rallying in the rest of the world for decades, with some notable exceptions. In spite of the long tradition of "blind" rallying in the United States, reconnaissance makes rallies safer and rallying with pace notes is more fun. ("Why should the insurance company feel better if we do not know how the next turn looks?" asked somebody aptly on this forum.) At any rate, FIA rules specifically require that organizers give competitors the opportunity to recce the route.

When we started recce on Rally New York events, we were warned by people with a long expereince in US rallying that recce would create a pandemonium. Nothing like that has ever happened and over the years we have not had a single complaint from residents or from authorities that would result from reconnaissance.

What we found was what I have known from my previous exprience in Europe: When you schedule reconnaissance properly and do not insist on doing it in a procession, which is not the best way of doing it anyway, the cars spread over the course and are hardly noticeable, creating no perceptible additional traffic on stage roads.

If you have marginal roads that cannot survive recce or if you have limited access to the roads, this becomes a problem. But, that is a problem of proper road selection rather than a problem of recce.

Recce is optional, not mandatory. It happens all the time on events with reconnaissance that some teams, for various reasons including the lack of time or money, recce only part of the route, new stages only or no stages at all.

Jemba notes were created for a reason but they do not replace full reconnaissance. When you talk to Arne Johanson of Jemba Sweden, he maintains that with the Jemba system he is making pace notes for teams all over the world and not stage notes, which is the spin put on Jemba notes in the US. By the way, with his mechanical method of measuring lateral acceleration, he is not able to capture vertical acceleration at all so his notes are lacking the notations for rising and dropping turns - which is a significant flaw in my opinion as far as pace notes are concerned.

Ivan Orisek
International Rally New York
Rally New York USA
 

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Competitor:
Time away from work
Additional costs (lodging meals)

Organizer:
Possible additional road fees
Requirement for additional workers

I get 28 days of vacation and used up every single one going to a rally this year. How much vacation do you have?

Ultimately, I like recce, but to make it work under the current circumstances, I think you'd have to reduce most events to one-day recce, one-day race. Once someone agrees to pay me proper money for co-driving, I'll recce all week.

- Christian
 

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>Recce has been the standard in rallying in the rest of the
>world for decades, with some notable exceptions.

Spin, spin. If that were true, there would be no Jemba.

>In spite of
>the long tradition of "blind" rallying in the United States,
>reconnaissance makes rallies safer and rallying with pace
>notes is more fun.

Unproven in spite of all the other 'opinions' in support of this sacred cow.

I am not opposed to recce, but I don't think it is necessary to belittle events that choose not to have it. Neither is it necessary to drag out all the old chestnuts to justify it. Some rallies have it; some don't. Doesn't make any of them better or worse.
 

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> By the way,
>with his mechanical method of measuring lateral acceleration,
>he is not able to capture vertical acceleration at all so his
>notes are lacking the notations for rising and dropping turns
>- which is a significant flaw in my opinion as far as pace
>notes are concerned.

I disagree. Jemba includes a 3 dimensional accellerometer and it properly notes various types of crests. The note preparers manually include if the curve is offcamber. And if its a steep downhill into a curve, it can be noted as such.

As for 'rising and dropping turns', never heard of such in any pacenotes. Think you are on your own on that one.
 

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First up I enjoy recce, I love the additional challenge and the satisfaction of working with a driver that really commits and trusts what he hears is huge. I?ve only done a couple of route book only events and they bore me senseless as a codriver.

Just because I?ve made a personal choice not to do route book only events does not mean I look down upon them, demeaning other organizers seems counterproductive at best. I have a certain number of events I can attend each year and I choose those that interest me the most, or provide the best value for my time.

Recce has not been the standard in the rest of the world, at the higher levels perhaps there is some truth to that statement, but it is not universal, rare bellow national championship level and unknown in the UK until relatively recently.

Jemba exists for that reason, recce does not exist universally. If it did there would be no business case for the service that Arnie provides. Yes the Jemba notes have some limitations when compared to pace notes PREPARED BY AN EXPERIANCED CREW WHO KNOW THEIR CAR (I can think of maybe 4 or 5 crews in North America that would be quicker of notes than Jemba), however for the other 98% of rallists they are perfectly adequate and at $150 or so a set an absolute bargain compared to the cost of recce.

I do agree that procession recce is not the best way of doing it, however recce times are usually pretty tight and there is usually one way or route that makes sense and allows you to get it all done in the time, most competitors follow that.

The biggest issues are obviously time and additional money. If you want to include recce and stay to a two day format one long day is spent doing recce and one rallying. We keep hearing the two biggest issues are time off and money

Assuming the two day format is kept, stage mileage is inevitably reduced (or it?s a couple of very long STPR type days). While I enjoy recce and everything that comes with it, between family, work and personal commitments I really can?t afford the extra time that a recce followed by a two day rally would involve. I don?t get anything near Christians positively European 28 days off a year.

Dave
www.davekean.com
 

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Discussion Starter #14
>Don't forget this reason as well. It just takes too much
>damn time. 90% of the competitors cannot afford to take the
>extra day off.

I guess my contention is that competitors that don't want to spend the extra time off don't have to.

Recce is optional, competitors would still be provided a route book.

So in general I guess I'm not really talking about Recce vs. Blind Rallies. I'm basically taking issue with Recce vs Jemba notes, I think more rallies should adopt Recce rather then Jemba.
 
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Dave,

>> By the way,
>>with his mechanical method of measuring lateral
>acceleration,
>>he is not able to capture vertical acceleration at all so
>his
>>notes are lacking the notations for rising and dropping
>turns
>>- which is a significant flaw in my opinion as far as pace
>>notes are concerned.
>
>I disagree. Jemba includes a 3 dimensional accellerometer and
>it properly notes various types of crests. The note preparers
>manually include if the curve is offcamber. And if its a steep
>downhill into a curve, it can be noted as such.

None of this is what I am talking about.

>As for 'rising and dropping turns', never heard of such in any
>pacenotes.

If you insist on this, then you may have never done pacenotes or may have never done them properly. Noting the rising or dropping turns in pace notes is really important for blind turns with a noticeable change in elevation. The car will behave differently: It will be pressed into the road in a rising turn and therefore gain traction. Conversely, in a dropping turn, the car will get lighter and lose some traction.

We have numerous instances of such turns particularly on tarmac stages on Rally New York events and I found that these turns were never properly described in Jemba stage notes.

Ivan Orisek
 

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> I don?t get anything near Christians positively
>European 28 days off a year.

Just to ratchet up the jealousy another notch, I had a conversation with my job a few weeks ago. For calendar year 2006, they have approved a (one-time) schedule of 37 days off, to accomodate my rallying.

Even so, I don't think it's reasonable to assume everyone is so lucky.

I like my job,
- Christian

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
 

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>> I don?t get anything near Christians positively
>>European 28 days off a year.
>
>Just to ratchet up the jealousy another notch, I had a
>conversation with my job a few weeks ago. For calendar year
>2006, they have approved a (one-time) schedule of 37 days off,
>to accomodate my rallying.

I can't hear you "la la la la la..."

Dave - who this time next week will spending a week of his precious vacation laying on a beach in Kauai with a (non-inflatable) blonde, wondering how crappy the weather is in NYC. Have a nice week Christian.
 
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>>Recce has been the standard in rallying in the rest of the
>>world for decades, with some notable exceptions.
>
>Spin, spin. If that were true, there would be no Jemba.
>
>>In spite of
>>the long tradition of "blind" rallying in the United States,
>>reconnaissance makes rallies safer and rallying with pace
>>notes is more fun.
>
>Unproven in spite of all the other 'opinions' in support of
>this sacred cow.


Let us see what the spin is and all the other unproven 'opinions':

PLACES WHERE RECONNAISSANCE IS BANNED:
I am aware of the following but there may be very few others:

- Only a part of US rallying.

- Lover level rallying in a major rallying country. However, this
is really misleading because they have an event every week, keep running the same stages and the drivers memorize not only the roads themselves but the actual pace notes.

- An insignificant gravel championship, for reasons of limited access to the forests, in a county where multiple other championships utilize recce.

PLACES WHERE RECONNAISSANCE IS PRACTICED:
Pretty much the rest of the world for decades now, including UK.

When Arne Johanson is selling his Jemba pace notes (his term) such as in New Zealand and other places, the specific purpose of his notes is to aid in reconnaissance (just like using somebody elses's pace notes or pace notes from last year) and not to avoid reconnaissance.

Let us see what FIA has to say about reconnaissance:

FIA General Prescriptions, Appendix III, Article 2.2 Special Stage Recommendations,
2.2.3 RECONNAISSANCE IS CONSIDERED A SAFETY FACTOR.

FIA General Prescriptions, Chapter XIV. RECONNAISSANCE
14.1 One or more of the following three rules for reconnaissance apply and are specified in the supplementary regulations:
14.1.1 Reconnaissance forbidden either by the authorities or by the owners of the land (military authorities, Forestry Commission, private owners):
The Organisers must give the crews the opportunity of acquainting themselves with the itinerary (at a time fixed in advance and of which both the public and the competitors have been informed), in normally registered cars while respecting the Road Traffic Laws.
14.1.2 Reconnaissance likely to cause disturbance (disturbances in residential areas, the inconveniencing or endangering of other road users, etc.):
Reconnaissance, restricted both in duration and number of passes, must be organized.
14.1.3 Free reconnaissance in areas where the environment is not likely to be disturbed, or where legislation allows it.

Ivan Orisek
 

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Start Flat 30k Finish
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Time away from work,
Additional costs (lodging meals) $250


Possible additional road fees,
Requirement for additional workers $1000


Imagining Dave Kean falling asleep in the sun and waking up with a wicked burn after rubbing the North American Rally community's nose in his trip to Hawaii?

Priceless!!!
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Grass is always greener......

>I'm basically taking issue with Recce vs Jemba
>notes, I think more rallies should adopt Recce rather then
>Jemba.

How many events do you compete in a year? And how many recces have you done?

$150 for Jemba notes per event is cheap when talking about competing in a National championship of 8 events for amatuers. Without Jemba, you'd see less National level teams competing at each event or shortened rally stage milage and reruns of many stages.

Lets see, Charlevoix had 3 days of recce, each very long. A huge investment in $ and time. Then some teams DNFed the first day of the rally, or worse, the 1st stage (Pat).

Careful what you ask for. I like the balance as is.
 
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