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I didn't want this to get buried in the other post. Doug alludes to this issue in his post;

"What about another part of the whole equation, the co-driver? A new driver in a fast car with a new co-driver is worse than a new-driver in a fast car with a crusty ol' navigator with a baseball bat to slow the driver down. Do we need some sort of certification system for co-drivers, whereby the co-driver maybe attends a driving school to learn what new guys do and how to coach them? Then new guys need a certified co-driver to begin with if the stewards deem it necessary due to their car choice."

Besides the co-driver schooling, I think there should at least be a rule prohibiting 2 novices in the car until a certain amount of co-efficients are attained. Better yet would be to make all novice drivers run for a certain number of co-efficients with an experienced driver or codriver that had the authority to pull the hand brake, turn the ignition off, take the keys or whatever is necessary. I know this has it's own issues but think about it.
 

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5 right opens
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I think that in a time where any new Rally entity is trying to establish itself and create a standard by which the Insurer and Public will measure it, something like this would be a HUGE Negative.

Where are you going to get a Driver to take a Novice Navvie? Wouldn't you just be making the experienced driver just as UNSAFE as any other driver getting BAD information?

Other way around, good Navvie might be able to continuall yell SLOW DOWN to the Novice Driver but as pointed out, repeatedly, it only takes a second for things to go terribly wrong.

In BOTH CASES what you are asking for and outlining can ONLY be done at a School. Taking an experienced Navvie away from a Driver at a points earning event is never going to happen but utilizing an experienced Navvie to a School is easy.

Posted in another thread, and arguably burried, were my thoughts to certify the Navvie. Ground School and Driving School. NOW they've got some experience and testing and shown some promise of making a good Navvie of themselves, OR been stamped "NEVER" by his instructor.

Couple this to the Provisional License program I laid outand you've got a very sastisfied Insurere that sees we are taking steps to make Rally safer for everyone.

This is a FAR CRY from the SCCA's position of "one our overview and let them go race" which was the biggest nail in the coffin when it came to liability.

The SCCA demanded that we certify, inspect and log EVERY LITTLE THING in a Rally Car except the two things that really matter... Driver and Navvie.

It doens't matter how you look at it, Rally's future in America STARTS with the butts in the seats. Putting them there, keeping them there, and getting them safely out of there at the end of the Rally.

Scott - this isn't complicated - Kovalik
 

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Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
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Scott,
When I paid to go to rally school, Don's comment is what they taught us, no blind leading the blind allowed.
Don's not nuts.
Remember, there are no organized schools like there are in road racing so until there are non-commercial schools, or attending commercial schools is mandated before competing, your idea is out.
I taught driving and sometimes you can't control the driver with words but there is always a big switch nearby.
Regarding novice navies, a good driver will drive what he sees easily, he just may never get back home on that transit.

rz
 

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Most of you old guys started in TSD rally. For 30 years that worked just fine.

Then came the "New World Order" in 1999 with its contingency "sponsors" (don't go fast = no money), its fancy stickers, its "extreme sport" garbage, "raising the bar", more spectators, factory teams being paid big bucks to win, etc, etc.

That is what killed 5 people!

The NWO people have blood on their hands. Until they admit it to themselves there will be more preventable deaths.


Most of the wet-behind-the-ears guys are starting with video games. The worst consequences they have experienced are having to reboot their computers.

Several people other than me have said that there should be licensing consequences for "offs". I AGREE 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, and will add that should apply to the co-drivers too!

What needs to be examined is what was changed in the past 5 years that should be UNDONE.

Jens Larsen
Flying Kiwi Racing
 

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>Scott,
>When I paid to go to rally school, Don's comment is what
>they taught us, no blind leading the blind allowed.
>Don's not nuts.
>Remember, there are no organized schools like there are in
>road racing so until there are non-commercial schools, or
>attending commercial schools is mandated before competing,
>your idea is out.
>I taught driving and sometimes you can't control the driver
>with words but there is always a big switch nearby.
>Regarding novice navies, a good driver will drive what he
>sees easily, he just may never get back home on that
>transit.
>
>rz

I've broken in a few new ones myself. I'm not going 10/10ths obviously, but plenty of my former Co Drivers turned into Excellent Rally Ho's.

If you are at the absolute front of the field, you probably won't want a newbie, but some of us that prefer Production don't mind breaking in a new one. And heck, once in a while we just borrow one of the Professional Rally Ho's when we want to go really fast.
 

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>>Scott,
>>Remember, there are no organized schools like there are in
>>road racing so until there are non-commercial schools, or
>>attending commercial schools is mandated before competing,
>>your idea is out.

There was once an organized driving school. It was 3 days and VERY comprehensive. Early students included both Krolikowskis, Steve Nowicki, Peter Cunningham, and many others. If you look at the lifetime points leaders in the back of your PRR you will find the names of the instructors. This school was put on by the Sports Car Club of Ann Arbor. An outline of this school was given to SCCA in 1980 along with the suggestion that it be used to train new competitors. You can see what SCCA did with it.


P.S. To answer the original question: "Because they both fit."
 

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Again I keep hearing its the newbies in fast cars that are causing all of the problems. Not to make light of it, but other than the one crash at Sawmill a number of years ago, what other accidents have been newbies in fast cars? Most of the severe accidents I have seen in recent years have been experienced teams who have had some pretty substantial offs. The number of newbie crashes seem to pale in comparison. Maybe I've missed all of this but it seems we are expending a lot of energie to fix a theorectical problem.
 

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5 right opens
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I disagree...

"There are no schools" can easily be argued by RA wispering into someone's ears "if you build it, they will come, because we will send them".

The fact that Rally School was COMPLETELY optional under the past regime is what is largely responsible for there NOT being Schools in the first place.

Truth is, there ARE schools in this country. Back east mostly it seems but you don't need the likes of Tim Oniel's multi-square acres dedicated rally course to put on a school.

Rally Sprints are an excellent venue to a school. Rally Cross type venues tied in with TSD stages could even be used.

One of the foremost curriculumn creaters for Rally Schools is the ORG Cheif Tech and current BOD runners.

Another prominent driver, Paul Euklund, has expressed interest in creating a driver's school here in the NW.

As an accomplished driver, looking at the possibility of a Driver's school being mandatory for all drivers for US Rally, I'd see a killing in the Rally School Buisness and would already have my business license purchased and my manuals published.

I think the better way to look at this is...

Until Rally Schools are NEEDED in the US, the idea is out.

And the SCCA dropping us is a prett good indicator that this is needed.

Scott - Teach me to Rally Safely - Kovalik
 

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How many threads do we need to have that slams new drivers and trys to restrict them from entering the sport. How many new drivers do not have problems with crashes-how many seasoned drivers had crashes at LSPR?

Why are we not working to grow the sport but are working to handicap it?

How hard would it be for new drivers to get seasoned co-drivers to jump in. How many seasoned co-drivers would give up a faster ride with chances of better finishes to help a new driver?

Let's be real here-is there really a problem that needs fixing with all these silly rules?

IMHO.
 

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codriveur
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Hey Gary,

As your Co-Driver let's use us an example. You drove one rally before we got in the car together,I Co-drove none. (I'm counting Maine 2003 as our first as Sawmill was an exception but yet the same) We discussed the hell out of it, ran with a route book from the back of the pack, in an under performing (OPEN CLASS!!!) but fun vehicle, had a blast, and said we need to get more serious.

We also lost a strut bearing, but nursed it to service. Our crew worked like hell, almost killed Peter Monin when the spring flew off, got to the next start, lost the brakes with 7+ miles to go on last stage, crossed the finish, the broken rotor locked up the rear wheel before the time control, we flatspotted the tire for 3 miles before we gave up. It must have been because we where both newbies huh? Should our pitcrew have gotten a lic. to perform extreme service under pressure? What could have prepped us for that? Nothing is my take.

This whole board has posted themselves into a frenzy. As I have posted, and b*tch*ed to you privately, unless the SCCA tells us what we are supposed to be so uninsurable for and gives the exact damn reasons and it is deseminated to us poor slobs in the cars we are not moving forward as a sport, ever. No matter who sanctions it, because without the mistakes and errors revealed, how can we progress.


Bernie

PS The BEST training I have ever gotten not in the car during competition was @ Sawmill during the new driver meeting with Phil and Adrian and reading stuff here like Alan's post on the events @ LSPR.
 

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slow is slow....
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>Then came the "New World Order" in 1999 with its contingency
>"sponsors" (don't go fast = no money), its fancy stickers,
>its "extreme sport" garbage, "raising the bar", more
>spectators, factory teams being paid big bucks to win, etc,
>etc.
>
>That is what killed 5 people!

Accidents killed 5 people?..not sponsors?..or stickers or anything else!!

>
>Most of the wet-behind-the-ears guys are starting with video
>games. The worst consequences they have experienced are
>having to reboot their computers.

Yeah! Kids these days can?t tell the difference between reality and video games?.I base my corner speeds during practice on how I drove the night before on Colin McRae Rally 4?.because I can just hit the reset button in life too!! Give people more credit!

>Several people other than me have said that there should be
>licensing consequences for "offs". I AGREE
>100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, and will add that should apply to the
>co-drivers too!

Why? You think there?s a strong positive correlation between ?offs? and ?inexperience?? I think the more experienced guys have more offs than rookies. I?m talking serious shunts. I know a lot of the top drivers have rolled in the last year?some twice. Should we penalize them for pushing the envelope? You actually think they were trying harder for the ?fancy stickers?? Did it ever occur to you that there are some people that just like to compete, like to be the best and will drive to the limit and beyond? (not me of course).

That?s why there is TSD?for people that don?t want to risk vehicular or bodily harm!! Rally is rally?.you drive as fast as possible on special stages?and if you?re doing it for anyone else besides yourself?..I hope you?re getting paid an awful lot!!



Andrew Sutherland
UniversalRally.com
 

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edit to say something better:


How about instead of limiting classes we just stick them with teeny weeny restrictors?


26mm or smaller for O and N
32 for G5
None for P and G2.


Must run the restrictors till seed 5 or 6.

Perhaps better drivers schools at each event?
 

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>spring flew off, got to the next start, lost the brakes with
>7+ miles to go on last stage, crossed the finish,


Driving without brakes should be taught to all newbies. How could we be allowed to compete without knowing this vital skill :p
 

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codriveur
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there should be
>licensing consequences for "offs". I AGREE
>100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, and will add that should apply to the
>co-drivers too!


When I get a steering wheel, and pedals mounted on my side, I'll join this cause.

Bernie
 

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Amen!

Don't pick on Novices only, without statistaical evidence.
Don't pick on the future of the Sport.

Rich Smith
Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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Scott,
>
>Where are you going to get a Driver to take a Novice Navvie?
> Wouldn't you just be making the experienced driver just as
>UNSAFE as any other driver getting BAD information?

This is about the most ridiculous statement I have seen on this forum for a while. Many of us take in new co-drivers because we like to help new people into the sport. And any experienced driver will know not to listen anywhere near 100% to ANY navvie until the driver has seen how the navvie operates.

I am not surr I agree with the proposal that Don has put forth, and I am reading your posts closely and trying to accomodate your point of view, but this type of argument is not helping your case!

Mark B.
 

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Don,

Thanks for at least posting a good topic for discussion. I haven't made up my mind if I agree, but it's good to see good possibilities posted.

Mark B.
 

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>>Several people other than me have said that there should be
>>licensing consequences for "offs". I AGREE
>>100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, and will add that should apply to the
>>co-drivers too!
>
>Why? You think there?s a strong positive correlation between
>?offs? and ?inexperience??


No, I don't.

My point is that I agree with some licensing punishment (be it points or something else) that add up to having a license pulled for a period of time. This would apply for "newbies" as well as FIA seeded teams.
 

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codriveur
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>This is about the most ridiculous statement I have seen on
>this forum for a while. Many of us take in new co-drivers
>because we like to help new people into the sport. And any
>experienced driver will know not to listen anywhere near
>100% to ANY navvie until the driver has seen how the navvie
>operates.

Mark,

I always read and measure your comments against my perspective.

I enjoy your perspective and always back up to read your posts, but... this is the most defenseless post by a driver-centric I have read in a while. Talk about a this ain't no team sport, information be damned, stuck with ballast, attitude. How does this jive with anything else you post? Imagine if a very experianced, veteran co-driver got in the car with the same attitude about a seed (insert number lower than ego here) driver?

Bernie
 

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>>This is about the most ridiculous statement I have seen on
>>this forum for a while. Many of us take in new co-drivers
>>because we like to help new people into the sport. And any
>>experienced driver will know not to listen anywhere near
>>100% to ANY navvie until the driver has seen how the navvie
>>operates.
>
>Mark,
>
>I always read and measure your comments against my
>perspective.
>
>I enjoy your perspective and always back up to read your
>posts, but... this is the most defenseless post by a
>driver-centric I have read in a while. Talk about a this
>ain't no team sport, information be damned, stuck with
>ballast, attitude. How does this jive with anything else you
>post? Imagine if a very experianced, veteran co-driver got
>in the car with the same attitude about a seed (insert
>number lower than ego here) driver?
>
>Bernie

Hi Bernie,

I guess I really screwed up in how I was trying to say this; I clearly managed to hit a nerve so I'll start out by apologizing to anyone offended; it was not intended. I don't think I deserve to be accused of having much ego or having the attitude which I must have put across to you, but then again, sometimes you can't be a good judge of how you really come across to others.....

First, if the co is new, I'll just read the road. It'll take quite a while for me to be sure that this new person is keeping ahead of the book and calling things right. I don't say this because I am driver-cnetirc, but because I have done this from both sides of the car so often and for so long that I have seen many ways to make mistakes (many self-inflicted), and have learned to avoid a lot of them. And even if John Dillon jumps in the car, I will be checking this same thing. Even with an experienced co, it'll take some time to adjust to cadence, how far ahead the instructions get called, etc. That was what I was trying yo say in a broader sense.

And, OBTW, out of my approximate 90-100 events, about 1/3 have been as a navigator. So I would be very appreciative if readers don't jump to the conclusion that I don't carry both perspectives.

And finally, the statement "Many of us take in new co-drivers
because we like to help new people into the sport." was not meant to be anything but expressing a sincere and strongly held personal attitude. I lived 300 miles from the nearst rallier when I started in 1977 and know how much I could have learned from a helping hand. That was all that was meant.

Regards, and again sorry to have unwittingly hit the wrong spot,
Mark B.
 
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