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Discussion Starter #1
Being a worker this year was great, sort of. Anyway I will be back as a worker again and again.
I heard over the two-way radio that a car was on fire about 4.4 miles in on the stage after a WRX stopped at the ham radio station at the spectator point and then transited through the stage followed by several other cars. I heard rumours on what happened but wanted to hear the facts first. I didn't catch which WRX it was but something about #15 rings a bell about something related to this. Any facts?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Okay, being that the stage was red flagged by Jonny Milner which stage did he DNF on with suspension failure? STPR site isn't up so I can't view the full results to see which one he DNF'ed on.
 

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He dnf'd on 10 as it was the last stage. Hope it was just a coincidence that he thought he was on fire. Having to go to Germania after 10 for an observation control, however, ensured that anyone that played games with the new rules couldn't finish.
 

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could you explain the observation control a little more..

was there a time control at that location?

thanks
niall d
 

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Sucker for good roads
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Milner was running very near the front on the road - 2nd behind Higgins I think?

He stopped on stage 10, apparently with front end trouble, and I believe O'Neill and Choiniere both went past at speed, seeing no red cross.

Later, reportedly for the 3rd car to pass him (next car after Choiniere (Mitchell, I believe)) he did put out the red cross, reporting a fire. Mitchell took the actions necessary for a red cross, talking to the next car through (Utecht, I believe). Another car (Farrell?) took the report to the next radio station and got the start stopped.

The rest of us turned around at the start and went to the O-control scheduled at the service location at Germania. There we did a planned card exchange to get them started on compiling the results, and transited back to the final MTC in Wellsboro as planned.

Results were EXTREMELY timely throughout.

We really wanted to run stage 10. Things were drying and improving continuously. According to the 0730 drivers' meeting, abuse of the red cross would result in exclusion and loss of license for a period yet to be determined. If this was a case of that, and it certainly seems it wasn't a medical emergency, I hope actions are taken to incentivize people not to abuse it in the future.

This was a great event - thanks to all who made it possible.
 

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Abuse is virtually impossible to prove. "I thought _____ was happening". "I saw _____". These cannot be refuted unless there are witnesses. By default, these witnesses cannot be competitors (think about it, if you doubt). The situation, whether valid or not, guaranteed that no competitor would pass Mr. Milner for finishing position. That he was unable to recover from his problem is incidental.
 

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>Abuse is virtually impossible to prove. "I thought _____ was
>happening". "I saw _____". These cannot be refuted unless
>there are witnesses. By default, these witnesses cannot be
>competitors (think about it, if you doubt). The situation,
>whether valid or not, guaranteed that no competitor would
>pass Mr. Milner for finishing position. That he was unable
>to recover from his problem is incidental.

Isn't this the same individual that had a little difficulty at LSPR last fall? Difficulty as in being excluded from the event for an incident on a Transit?

I guess this is part of rallying that is being brought over from the other side of the Atlantic. I'm sure we will learn to appreciate it some day.
 

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Loose nut behind the wheel
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These are the facts of the incident.

Milner was 2nd on the road.
He broke the LF suspension on the last stage of the rally.
He stopped on that stage.
He displayed the red cross AFTER at least three cars at two minute intervals passed him.
We (Utecht/Secor) were the first car to stop for the red cross.
His co-driver asked for our fire bottle.
We gave it to him.
Mitchell/Donnely were the second team at the red cross location.
They continued on to the radio point to report what Milner or his co-driver told them.
Milner or his co-driver pulled the pin on OUR fire bottle.
They did not feel the need to pull the pin on either of THEIR fire bottles.
There was no medical emergency.
There were no spectators anywhere in the area.
Milner's car was never on fire.

You now have the facts.
Mark Utecht
 

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>These are the facts of the incident.
>
>Milner was 2nd on the road.
>He broke the LF suspension on the last stage of the rally.
>He stopped on that stage.
>He displayed the red cross AFTER at least three cars at two
>minute intervals passed him.
>We (Utecht/Secor) were the first car to stop for the red
>cross.
>His co-driver asked for our fire bottle.
>We gave it to him.
>Mitchell/Donnely were the second team at the red cross
>location.
>They continued on to the radio point to report what Milner
>or his co-driver told them.
>Milner or his co-driver pulled the pin on OUR fire bottle.
>They did not feel the need to pull the pin on either of
>THEIR fire bottles.
>There was no medical emergency.
>There were no spectators anywhere in the area.
>Milner's car was never on fire.
>
>You now have the facts.
>Mark Utecht

Hey JV, isn't this a Double Secret Probation situation?
 

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400 flat to crest
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Oi Oi Oi! What a hoot!

>>These are the facts of the incident.
>>
>>Milner was 2nd on the road.
>>He broke the LF suspension on the last stage of the rally.
>>He stopped on that stage.
>>He displayed the red cross AFTER at least three cars at two
>>minute intervals passed him.
>>We (Utecht/Secor) were the first car to stop for the red
>>cross.
>>His co-driver asked for our fire bottle.
>>We gave it to him.
>>Mitchell/Donnely were the second team at the red cross
>>location.
>>They continued on to the radio point to report what Milner
>>or his co-driver told them.
>>Milner or his co-driver pulled the pin on OUR fire bottle.
>>They did not feel the need to pull the pin on either of
>>THEIR fire bottles.
>>There was no medical emergency.
>>There were no spectators anywhere in the area.
>>Milner's car was never on fire.
>>
>>You now have the facts.
>>Mark Utecht
>
>Hey JV, isn't this a Double Secret Probation situation?
More like a double dollop of BS which on the face of it stinks like der normalische scheisse wie immer.
Was unsere beliebte und befrüchtet leiter der Spitzner seen speeding and crossing double yellow lines in a misbegotten effort to draw attention away from this?

I mean, if this occured as reported, and i have no reason to doubt the words of Mark U, this is really another huge blunder.

Situation Normal: All f***ed Up





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Mark - Thank you for posting that. That is what I heard from our stage captain and it is a load of BS for abusing the red cross. I am interested in what will now happen to Mr. Milner in light of this. Hopefully it will be a stiff penalty to prevent anyone from trying this again.
 

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>Mark - Thank you for posting that. That is what I heard from
>our stage captain and it is a load of BS for abusing the red
>cross. I am interested in what will now happen to Mr. Milner
>in light of this. Hopefully it will be a stiff penalty to
>prevent anyone from trying this again.

Oh, no. A stiff penalty to one of the "chosen ones"? These are the same "professionals" who are single handedly saving the sport of rally in America. With all this professionalism and sportsmanship they are bringing to these shores - they should in fact be commended for their actions and praised for their foresight and selflessness. Their undying service to the sport can not be measured. And you think they should be penalized? Ha!

In what state would rally in the US be right now if the Big Blue team had not come over here to save us from ourselves? We should all be thankful and worship the ground upon which they walk.

Sorry - it's starting to get deep in here - I must sign off...

Scott
www.teamharco.com
Team Harco Motorsports
"Win on Sunday, Sleep on Monday"
 

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Marketing through Motorsports
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Big Blue?

>In what state would rally in the US be right now if the Big
>Blue team had not come over here to save us from ourselves?

I'm not so sure that it's a Big Blue thing so much as the actions of the guys in the car.

Mark/Jeff, did they discharge your bottle or just pull the pin?

[hr]

[p align=right]John Dillon
John @ WidgetRacing.com
www.WidgetRacing.com
 

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hi mark

the control arm was broken before he started the last stage..

a very prominent driver asked in disbelief..
are you going to try to run this stage with the wheel hanging off

regards
niall d
 

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RE: Big Blue?

>Mark/Jeff, did they discharge your bottle or just pull the
>pin?

They pulled the pin. They had nothing to discharge the bottle onto.

Mark
 

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>hi mark
>
>the control arm was broken before he started the last
>stage..
>
>a very prominent driver asked in disbelief..
>are you going to try to run this stage with the wheel
>hanging off
>
>regards
>niall d

I'd say we got ourselves a situation that makes last years Wild West service incident look like nothing.

The action taken by car 15 kept 30+ teams from being able to run the last stage.

I suppose that the result will be the same as Wild West.
 

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Man, Trevor, you just left that one wide open.

Yeah, we'll see the same thing as with the Wild West incident:

Organizer slaps penalty, organizer removes penalty, committee talks about it for a while, and then the offending team gets a slap on the wrist and a stern letter.

:) Isn't that about how it all went down last year? :)

I'd be interested in what the "severe penalties" are supposed to be...

:) KT
 

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For what it's worth: in legislative drafting if you really do want to enforce something you set down a specific penalty with no (or very little) latitude in terms of enforcement (if you do X we will do Y). The penalty is clear, and there's no negotiation. If on the other hand you want maximum latitude you use an adjective of interpretation (if you do X you will be subject to (adjective) Y). The red cross situation at STPR is obviously an instance of the latter type of drafting, and to be honest if someone were to do what is being alleged above, he would be subject only to the interpretation of the adjective, in this case "severe," and what is severe to one may be nominal to another.

It's dirty, sure. It deprives people of stage time which is close to unforgiveable. But if you're going to empower people to cancel stages willy-nilly then you have to expect that they might do so. Especially someone who makes a living driving race cars and who can expect it to effect the results in his favour. Ever competed in Britain? I have, and even (especially!) the amateurs will stop at nothing to win.

Ever taken a dust minute? That's just a different calculus, using the rules to your advantage. I know of one prominent and well-liked US competitor who actually checked in 4 cars early and took a four minute penalty to run in clean air by checking in first - it worked and he won. Of course he seriously changed the competitive position of the guy who was first on the road before that! How about the WRC guys hanging back on the first days of rallies so they don't have to sweep the road? Doesn't make for the best competition, does it? But fair game for professional competitors doing the best that they can with the rules. The outcry caused the rules to be changed rather than the competitors to be villified (OK, maybe they were villified a little at first, but soon they were all doing it and it was fodder for TV commentary on each rally).

So I'm blaming the rule rather than the alleged perpetrator. If it's true, it was a dirty move, but possibly a justified risk. I wouldn't have done it - I'm sure you wouldn't have either. But come on - a rule for any competitor to stop a stage if they sight a spectator out of bounds? That is an INVITATION to this kind of misuse.

That said, I think that if a WRC competitor did this there would actually be a hue and cry and probably a popular villification. I'd be among the loudest voices crying "foul." But public opinion aside, all the competitor would be subject to is an interpretation of "severe penalty." The point is that it should be "exclusion from two events" or something.

Also, I'm secretly happy that it didn't work, as it preserved the series standings of a couple of my favourite guys...

ACP
www.musketeerracing.com
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 
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