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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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Discussion Starter #1
If it's listed as a county road going through a national forest, does that the county and not the forest service would be the one to allow a rally on that road?
 

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That sounds like both could issue permits for that road.

Who currently Owns the road is much less important than who currently has "right of way" to said road. its varies from state to state, but Many states have laws to the effect of "agencies who have maintained the road no greater than X years ago, have right of way" . some states give right of way to every agency that has ever maintained the road !! (AZ i think)

meaning if the county paid for maintenance even once, they may still (or forever) have right of way to the road, and can issue permits to close down the road for an event.


the Forest service would also likely have right of way to the road. but there may be additional agencies that have a right of way. all you need is to find 1 Agency that will issue you the permits.

one more item of Note, I know for sure , one rally in the US has that exactly situation you decribe. roads going into National Forest land, where the local national forest will not issues permits for rally, but the county does. the rally goes on. It does change how much from the center of the road is actually legal to use though. I believe that specific rally (PM/email/call me for more details) is "limited" to using 30 or 60 feet from the center line in either direction. (so setting up worker stations, spectators, refuel, etc, etc, ) you are more limited, Where as if the permits were issued from the forest service the rally would be able to use areas further from the center line of the road.

:D
 

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Uh Oh, UH OH, UHH OHHH!!!
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The County if it is a county road through a national forest. At least that's how it works for 100AW. But we still need a permit with the national forest for spectator points, having people in the forest, etc.
 

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In general, whoever is paying to maintain the road is the permitting agency you'll need to speak with since they'll likely be responsible for any repairing, or seeing to it that you get it repaired. Determining which of the many agencies is the correct one is usually something that requires contacting several to find out who is the one you need to negotiate with.

You should be very wary of any situation in which several agencies claim simultaneous authority - usually it's a "power-play" on someones part, and it's almost always trouble for the event.

Like most "General" statements - it may not be the case in your instance - due diligence is required, something that is best accomplished by discussions with local folks who have knowledge of the players.

Brad
 

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The Scorpion King
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The answer to the question in your thread title is almost always the Department of the Interior (not the Forest Service) but that's really not relevant. The exception is if the road was built as a Federal Aid Highway a long time ago, at which point the Feds may have actually deeded the land underneath the road to the county or state, but you probably won't be that lucky. Beyond that, the answer to your main question is that it depends. If the county has a genuine Right-of-Way for the road, then you need permission from them, but that is a necessary but perhaps not sufficient condition. Even if the Forest Service wanted to, they couldn't give you a permit because rallies are within the scope of a highway Right-of-Way. However, the Right-of-Way only applies to a certain amount of land, which may only be the disturbed surface of the road itself. So, as was mentioned, for the road blocks, etc, you might need a Forest Service permit, depending on how they view the world. But, since your permit is not for a competitive motorsports event, you're in much better shape. This is about as close the the ideal situation as you will find.
You can have problems in one of two areas. The first is that there is a legitimate disagreement as to whether the county has a valid Right-of-Way. This usually results from the County claiming that they got the Right-of-Way under RS-2477, which among many other things means the road was there before it was declared to be a National Forest. The catch is that the road had to be a legal public highway under Colorado law before it was declared to be a National Forest. Proving that can be quite difficult, which is why there tends to be disagreement. The other thing that is fairly common is that the Forest Service will sign maintenance agreements with counties, and the maintenance agreements don't provide the counties with all the same benefits as a real Right-of-Way. In both of those instances, you'll probably need permission from both parties. In my experience, that's not a worthwhile expenditure of time unless it is a really, really, nice piece of road.
The easiest way to find out might be to look at the BLM Master Title Plat for the townships that the road is in. If it's shown on the plat, that's a good sign, and it should have a reference number that'll allow you to get some more information (PM me and I'll show you how to find it). If it's not, that's not necessarily the end of the world, but now you're going to have to rely on asking people that might not understand the subtlety of why you're asking, so you might get the wrong answer. First, I'd call the county and ask them. Make sure you talk to their Right-of-Way administrator, and not the guy who schedules the maintenance of the road (you'll need to make friends with him later). Assuming you get the answer that you want to hear, I'd call the Forest's District Office and ask for the person who handles Rights-of-Way, tell them what the County told you, and make sure that they agree. If they do, you're almost golden, if not, see the paragraph above.

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John
 

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eating dust taking photos
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Grant,

we can chat if its slow tomorrow if you end up coming by but send me a list of the roads and I can probably find out who the right of way holder is with an e-mail and a couple of days if need be...
 

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your other left, you idiot
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Chairman hat on here

You are going to end up dealing with both - so play nice.

This is NOT the place to try and play semantics, and temporarily "win" a battle, just to lose the war.

If a car runs off the road, it ends up in the woods. Spectators are in the woods. "Fugitive dust" ends up in the woods.

Also remember everyone, this is not a private forum. Lots of people read this, quote us, search us - so be careful.

It is best to very open from the start. BTDT.

DON'T SCREW THIS ONE UP !!!

Best of luck.

press on,
 

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codriveur
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There was a case heard before the Supreme Court of the US this past week that may be worth knowing about so one can put up defensable argumentation on these kinds of uses. It absolutely will be twisted into land usage issues no matter which way the court rules.

In Montana there is a huge go'round about the ownership of the riverbed, it's use and commerce related issues. In it's litigious and simple form it is seen as affecting only the opperator of the hydroelectric facilities, but there are 26 states that have submitted opinions on this issue which includes thoughts on docks, access,as well as recreational and commercial uses. Montana has an unusual (by my eastern US perspective) rule that all waterways must be accessable at any point, no matter what, Seems common scence is what has prevailed till now. This will become a land issue, no doubt.

http://www.greatfallstribune.com/article/20111205/NEWS01/112050301/Who-owns-Great-Falls-
 

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The Scorpion King
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You are going to end up dealing with both - so play nice.

This is NOT the place to try and play semantics, and temporarily "win" a battle, just to lose the war.

If a car runs off the road, it ends up in the woods. Spectators are in the woods. "Fugitive dust" ends up in the woods.

Also remember everyone, this is not a private forum. Lots of people read this, quote us, search us - so be careful.

It is best to very open from the start. BTDT.

DON'T SCREW THIS ONE UP !!!

Best of luck.

press on,
I don't think anyone in the thread has suggested not being open about the intended use of the road. However, I disagree that the semantics aren't important, the difference between "trail" and "public highway" is what allows a significant number of events in the Southwest to happen without costs that would break most organizers.

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John
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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Discussion Starter #11
It's known that the forest service in Colorado has no interest in entertaining rallies.
There are thousands of miles of potential rally roads in Colorado.
There are small communities that would love an injection of money.
There are many county roads that go in and out of national forest lands with no houses on them that are not maintained in the winter.
My thought was that a winter rally could be possible in some of these areas at not too much expense to the city/county to keep the road maintained for a few extra weeks until the event. Or allow us to come in and plow the road the day before the event and never actually open it to the public.
Baby steps first. Revive Cog then we can start planning ahead.
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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Discussion Starter #13
Because it should be easy and cheap and at least two of the Denver based rallyists work at the driving school and have access to all the people who did it before.
Two stages that are about 6-7 miles a piece have no road use fees from what I understand.
Each have held up to as many as five passes in a single day.
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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Discussion Starter #15
Definitely Jeremy. With No Sage Creek or Breeze Basin stages. Middle Cog and Elkhead stages to start with as I understand those are free roads. Salt Creek and Wolf Mountain ones potentially in the future? I'd like to eventually get to the point of two-three local events up there if the season allows. We're trying to do what we can to get more cars that are sustainable and lower cost and lower maintenance. Probably going to look seriously at the 2.5 and 2.8L E36 BMW cars as something that you could cage, suspension, brake pads, intake, exhaust, chip, and go. Trying to find the first person to build one for currently. Will probably just buy one in a couple months if I can't convince someone else to. Then build it and beat the shit out of it at CORE and see if the car in nearly stock form could be a good starting point. Running/driving cars in the 1-2k range, build for around $10k, 200-220 hp RWD should provide plenty of fun and room to grow.Combine that with Open Light for all those guys that "HAVE" to rally a Subaru. Oh, and the Open guys are welcome to come as well, at least for the 1-2 events those guys tend to survive for. Three turbo Subaru's for sale here currently, all of which have done 0-1 event.
 
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