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Discussion Starter #1
While discussing some of the current "issues" with other rallyist these two topics came up. I though it might make for interesting discussion here.

If this sport is suppose to give each competitor as equal oppurtunity as can be expected, is it fair to give the top 10 cars a 2 minute time window and the rest of the field 1 minute window? Does this create an unfair advantage?

If the event is using "organiser notes", descriptive, shouldn't the notes be given to all the competitors as part of the entry fee supplied route book? Or should the notes be sold to only those teams that want to purchase the notes? Does this create an unfair advantage?
 

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>>is it fair to give the top 10 cars a 2 minute time window and the rest of the field 1 minute window? Does this create an unfair advantage?<<
wow... that doesnt seem right to me!!!????

and the selling of the notes thing...
friends and I been discussing this all week. I dont think it's right, or "fair" to sell them to those that have the do$h for them....
and not give them to ALL competitors.... and i dont really understand how they can do this w/out it being considered an "unfair advantage"

seems kind of cheesy to me...
Jamie
www.subiegalracing.com
www.subiegal.com
 

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ummm...

so you could spend more money and buy a brand new XXX for your class and spend mega bucks for all the trick parts...and spend more money to run all the best fluids...and more money to haul your professional crew in on a semi...etc...and just FOR Example...end up with a 200hp production car vs. all the other 110 hp cars. Fair???

I'm sorry, but the world isn't fair, and people who are willing to shell out some extra dough can get a lot of "unfair" advantages.

I don't think there is any "fair" racing anywhere I can think of where $$ isn't an issue. Even in like the spec racing, if you are doing really well, and some idiot with a lot of money decides he is going to take you out so as to not have you get ahead of him in points...it could happen.

Or look at it this way...how else could you make your car go SO much faster and have such a new experience for only 150 bucks?

john
 

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Discussion Starter #4
>ummm...
>
>so you could spend more money and buy a brand new XXX for
>your class and spend mega bucks for all the trick
>parts...and spend more money to run all the best
>fluids...and more money to haul your professional crew in on
>a semi...etc...and just FOR Example...end up with a 200hp
>production car vs. all the other 110 hp cars. Fair???
>
>I'm sorry, but the world isn't fair, and people who are
>willing to shell out some extra dough can get a lot of
>"unfair" advantages.
>
>I don't think there is any "fair" racing anywhere I can
>think of where $$ isn't an issue. Even in like the spec
>racing, if you are doing really well, and some idiot with a
>lot of money decides he is going to take you out so as to
>not have you get ahead of him in points...it could happen.
>
>Or look at it this way...how else could you make your car go
>SO much faster and have such a new experience for only 150
>bucks?
>
>john

John, I think you missed the point. The rules of the sport is to create an "as equal as possible" for each competing team on the special stage. Giving the first 10 cars a larger dust window is not equal to the rest of the field is it? Also selling a more detailed version of the route book is not equal if it is not supplied to all competitors, is it?
You're most certainly correct on the description above as to what happens. However isn't the real test when the teams are on the "stage", this is when everyone should be given the same consideration. Would you agree?
 

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Two comments:

In WRC events, the top 20 cars get two-minute windows, the rest one minute. Doesn't necessarily make it "right", but there's precedent for such a thing.

Somebody has to pay to have the course notes made, and it's not an insignificant amount. Is it "fair" to charge everyone for them, when not everyone needs or wants them? Or should the expense be allocated to those who want, need AND CAN AFFORD them? If we charge everybody for notes, we get complaints about the higher entry fees. Is there a way for the organizers to do this correctly?

Bruce
 

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Dust windows is one issue...I agree. None of my statements are meant to pertain to that issue.

The stage notes is a completely seperate.

Everyone DOES have access to the stage notes...they just cost more.

For example: everyone has access to 100 octane race gas. This is a major performance advantage to a lot of cars. It only costs an extra 200 bucks to run race gas per event. The organizers make sure it is avalible on site and a lot of people DO buy it and get a performance increase in their times because of it. Does that mean that the organizers should give it to everyone else? No...

Stage notes are simply a performance enhancing tool...they ARE NOT critical for you to finish the rally...and ARE AVALIBLE to everyone at an extra cost. Just like race gas...new tires every stage...etc.

How fast do you want to go...how much do you want to spend. It really is that simple :)

Oh, and if you aren't used to your navigator rattling off instructions every 20 seconds or so...stage notes may not really be that much of a performance enhancing tool...so again...it is variable to each team...just like every other performance upgrade you can do for your team at a race.

john
 

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I think this is a timely discussion. I understand the sentement
that things should be fair the whole way along the line, but
it can never be. The guys in the back have a chewed up course,
different lighting, etc. The front of the line has to be EARNED.

When you get there and are competing for an overall win, perhaps
it makes more sense to be concerned with a more level playing field.
Especialy when the alternative is running until the middle of
the morning or perhaps having to cancel stages due to lateness.
Dust windows add running time to the event, and that is bad.
We all come to race not to wait in line.

Here is what I propose. The dust window is nominal 2 /1 minutes
with 2 mintues extended back to the back for bad conditions as
time allows.

The FIA stuff is coming. The biggest time eater is these
#$%&*! regrouping controls coming into service. I dont' like
it one little bit. It adds and hour every time you want to
service. My solution is similar, you only run the regroup back
part way, then let everyone else go in our old expeditious way,
not know just how long they will get? Fair, no. Better, yes!

So now the top teams with huge staffs of crack techs can work
there 1.5 minute shell swaps and us poor bastards in the back
can still have a shot at getting our hulk rolling on round tires
all pointed the same direction. If the 50th guy gets twice the
service time the front ten get, well, that's not strictly fair.
But a system like this is better for everyone. It gives FIA
type controls at the front end, our own more workable system
further back, and should piss off the minimum number of people.

paul timmerman
 

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Paul, I like your ideas in general, and you've clearly given this some thought. The problem, as always, is where your "splits" are. Wherever you make your changes, somebody will complain. A particularly fast backmarker moves up or somebody in the front falls back...poof! An "unfair advantage."

And as soon as you start changing procedures for various parts of the pack, the potential for things to go wrong increases.

Bruce
 

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Agreed, the first time I heard about the first n cars getting a 2 minute window, I could imagine things getting confusing when one or more of those first n cars drops out. Luckily the experience at Sno*Drift seemed to prove that was not the case.

Now, for something a little off topic. What I did observe were start and finish crews that really weren't quite as on the ball as I would have hoped. Now, yes, I know every one out there is a volunteer and they are all doing the best they can, and they don't neccesarily know the backgrounds of the workers around them (experience levels, etc.)

But, like I said, that's a little off topic. And definitely NOT a hack on ANYBODY. We (Brenda and I) didn't encounter an issue that we couldn't deal with.

jb
 

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As far as the 2 min. rule goes, I don?t really think that it is fair to all. Then again, not many people are going as fast as the top 10. I am more concerned with seeding procedures. Early in a rally, I am ALWAYS catching the cars in front of me until we regroup, or we arrange a change in order. (This is not intended to be bragging, but a true concern. This can create a more hazardous situation than almost any amount of dust)

Pace Notes??
I will start by saying that I agree with those that say ?the notes ARE available to everyone?. Being on a tighter budget than most, I would like to know if $150 is fair. By all means, pay those who create the notes, but I did not think that notes would cost so much to create. If I paid $150 for notes, I would hope that there would be a class, such as a typical Novice meeting, which would be available to competitors new to notes.

With that being said, I talked with someone who ran CT with a co-driver who was new to notes. It sounded very frustrating and it may have slowed them down. Listening to the pace of notes on WRC can be confusing, not to mention everyone calls the corners differently. Sometimes it is hard to keep up from the comfort of my own couch, let alone when I am strapped next to a co-driver who is barking 20 commands per mile. Sure it is something that we will get used to, but at this point, notes may not be an advantage at all. I am considering a new brand of tire that is available to all, and they may not be an advantage to me at all either. The same goes for fuel and any number of ?go-fast? bits that cost a lot of money. It is a gamble, just as everything is in racing. That is what it is all about! That is what makes racing fun, exciting and damn frustrating.

I will say that at this point, I will spend my money on tires and other goodies before I spend the money on notes. Maybe I will put the money I save on pace notes this season toward another drivers school this winter. I am SURE that will make me faster than trying to figure out notes.

Roger Jackman
Car #286
 

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Discussion Starter #11
>Dust windows is one issue...I agree. None of my statements
>are meant to pertain to that issue.
>
>The stage notes is a completely seperate.
>
>Everyone DOES have access to the stage notes...they just
>cost more.

Is this anything like local homolagation? Everyone has access to it, it just cost's more.
Organizer supplied route instructions should be given to all competitors not better notes sold to them. It is up to the competitor to choose if they wish to use them.
>
>For example: everyone has access to 100 octane race gas.
>This is a major performance advantage to a lot of cars. It
>only costs an extra 200 bucks to run race gas per event.
>The organizers make sure it is avalible on site and a lot of
>people DO buy it and get a performance increase in their
>times because of it. Does that mean that the organizers
>should give it to everyone else? No...
>

Race gas is not a performance advantage. High octane fuel may give a few turbo cars a bit more boost before the knock occures but does nothing for a stock Geo, infact it would probably reduce power slightly. High octane fuel is a requirement of the compression ratio to prevent pre ignition. The fuel itself does not give more power.
How this can be related to buying an advantage of reading the road unseen is not possible.


>Stage notes are simply a performance enhancing tool...they
>ARE NOT critical for you to finish the rally...and ARE
>AVALIBLE to everyone at an extra cost. Just like race
>gas...new tires every stage...etc.
>
Again race gas or new tires do not give information of the road ahead and out of sight.

>How fast do you want to go...how much do you want to spend.
>It really is that simple :)
>
>Oh, and if you aren't used to your navigator rattling off
>instructions every 20 seconds or so...stage notes may not
>really be that much of a performance enhancing tool...so
>again...it is variable to each team...just like every other
>performance upgrade you can do for your team at a race.
>
>john
 

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Discussion Starter #12
>Two comments:
>
>In WRC events, the top 20 cars get two-minute windows, the
>rest one minute. Doesn't necessarily make it "right", but
>there's precedent for such a thing.

WRC does a lot of silly things, don't they? For instance FIA has greatly shortend WRC events, kept them near major population centers and put it on TV, now they're complaining about to many spectators. Go figure.

>Somebody has to pay to have the course notes made, and it's
>not an insignificant amount. Is it "fair" to charge
>everyone for them, when not everyone needs or wants them?
>Or should the expense be allocated to those who want, need
>AND CAN AFFORD them? If we charge everybody for notes, we
>get complaints about the higher entry fees. Is there a way
>for the organizers to do this correctly?
>
>Bruce

Bruce; I understand the dilema. If the push is to go to descriptive notes why have a conventional route book at all? Couldn't the transits be in normal Alpine/Tulip instructions and the special stages be in descriptive form? Just a thought.
 

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OK, so the entry fee goes up for everyone by about $200.00. The teams that don't want the notes still have to pay for them, even if they don't use them. Doesn't seem fair to me. Making notes is an additional $7-10 THOUSAND dollars, NOT including printing costs. The price of competing is only going up, I want to keep it down any way possible. You don't want to pay for it, but you want EVERYONE to have to pay for it. I don't understand...


> Organizer supplied route instructions should be given to
>all competitors not better notes sold to them. It is up to
>the competitor to choose if they wish to use them.
>>
 

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About paying for the notes, I think it is normal. You always going to have the rich guy who buy the best equipment etc... that's racing. There is nothing you can do about it. I think the way to look at it is, why you enter a rally. For the fun of it and you don't really care about the result or because you want to win. If you do it for the win I don't think 100 $ is goint to hurt you budget, compare to all the $$ you spend in tires, after market parts etc.. And if you enter for the fun of it, you don't need the notes. That way you can have a cheaper entry fee.
I think it give a little more safety to the people who go really fast, and need more precise notes.
Stephan
 

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> Organizer supplied route instructions should be given to
>all competitors not better notes sold to them. It is up to
>the competitor to choose if they wish to use them.

Organizer supplied route instructions are given to all. The route book. And it is usually a damm fine one in the Oregon and NW Region I might add :)

competitors don't have to buy the notes. professional note writers charge a lot of money...that is fact...undesputable. why should the person who doesn't want to use the notes have to pay extra for them? Is that "fair."

>
> Race gas is not a performance advantage. High octane
>fuel may give a few turbo cars a bit more boost before the
>knock occures but does nothing for a stock Geo, infact it
>would probably reduce power slightly. High octane fuel is a
>requirement of the compression ratio to prevent pre
>ignition. The fuel itself does not give more power.
> How this can be related to buying an advantage of reading
>the road unseen is not possible.

Your statement should be "Race gas is not a performance advantage to everyone."

In your very next statement you say that it gives turbo cars more boost...i.e. power...and allows NA high compression engines to run healthly. Please tell me how that can't be considered a performance advantage.

I think the analogy still holds.

Some people go faster with race gas...some people go faster with stage notes.

Some people it makes no difference in their performance with race gas...some people it makes no difference in their performance with stage notes.

Or put another way...Should the people who get a performance boost insist that the people who don't get a performance boost help subsidize the cost of the performance boost? Is that "fair."

that's really what you would be asking the organizers to do if everyone got a copy of the notes. EVERYONE...whether they wanted the boost or not would HAVE to pay some amount of money for the really fast guys who WANT and can use the stage notes.

stage notes cost money...organizers get zero of that money. Actually...organizers have to do more work because of the stage notes.

john
 

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Discussion Starter #16
>
>> Organizer supplied route instructions should be given to
>>all competitors not better notes sold to them. It is up to
>>the competitor to choose if they wish to use them.
>
>Organizer supplied route instructions are given to all. The
>route book. And it is usually a damm fine one in the Oregon
>and NW Region I might add :)
>
>competitors don't have to buy the notes. professional note
>writers charge a lot of money...that is fact...undesputable.
> why should the person who doesn't want to use the notes
>have to pay extra for them? Is that "fair."
>
Why should the person who does want to use the notes have to pay extra for them ? is that fair?
>>
>> Race gas is not a performance advantage. High octane
>>fuel may give a few turbo cars a bit more boost before the
>>knock occures but does nothing for a stock Geo, infact it
>>would probably reduce power slightly. High octane fuel is a
>>requirement of the compression ratio to prevent pre
>>ignition. The fuel itself does not give more power.
>> How this can be related to buying an advantage of reading
>>the road unseen is not possible.
>
>Your statement should be "Race gas is not a performance
>advantage to everyone."
>
>In your very next statement you say that it gives turbo cars
>more boost...i.e. power...and allows NA high compression
>engines to run healthly. Please tell me how that can't be
>considered a performance advantage.
>
No< I said it may. Do you understand what higher octane does?
>I think the analogy still holds.
>
Think it over again, if you do understand it won't!

>Some people go faster with race gas...some people go faster
>with stage notes.

Again with the race gas to Oranges thing, huh?

>Some people it makes no difference in their performance with
>race gas...some people it makes no difference in their
>performance with stage notes.
>
>Or put another way...Should the people who get a performance
>boost insist that the people who don't get a performance
>boost help subsidize the cost of the performance boost? Is
>that "fair."
>
>that's really what you would be asking the organizers to do
>if everyone got a copy of the notes. EVERYONE...whether
>they wanted the boost or not would HAVE to pay some amount
>of money for the really fast guys who WANT and can use the
>stage notes.

No, everyone would be supplied the same view of the unseen road at the same price, that is what I'm saying. Your the one that said it is a boost, not me!
>
>stage notes cost money...organizers get zero of that money.
>Actually...organizers have to do more work because of the
>stage notes.
>
I totally agree with you John, oh and I'm not arguing the point of using notes just to be clear. I'm asking what competitors think of the added co$t.
>john
:) :)

So what you are saying is that in your opinion, a competitor should pay money for what may or may not be an advantage that is being sold by the organizer, if of course that competitor chooses.
That also means that the $900 spent to enter "Pro" and $150 to take "advantage" of "full disclosure of organiser supplied descriptive notes". $1050 to be given as equal a chance at the route as other competitors.:) ;-)
 

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John Vanlandingham
If they are worth having, and if they are any good, they are worth having without a doubt, then there is NO OPTION to having them, they are not just a little teeny help, they are an enormous advantage.

One more thing shifting the emphasis to PURCHASING all the things needed for a result.
Doubt this? I'm a privateer and I don't like working on my car so when I come to a little kink that I can't see around, I lift a bit maybe, OR NOT, as I can read the terrain/tree line and grip/spin.

What skill is shown when the guy with the notes gets a call 'flat left' and he keeps the foot planted down? hearing? Obedience? maybe but judgement about car driving on gravel?

Truisms about 'that's the way racing always has been' are just that truism as in clichés, platitudes.
We make rules to make the competition and thereby the result have some significance.
We make rules about engine sizes, levels of preparation, level of modification.
This is soley a question of 'spending' and nothing more.And a must if the next guy does it, thereby not an option, just added cost.


TWO minute window is utter and complete BS. BOOOOOLE SHEEEEET! What's the supposed reason or explanation (other than lack of ?? or perhaps perversity) that the rulemakers gave for explanation?
THe well funded top whatever teams, who no doubt have the aforemention notes they bought, could be construed as having less need of them from one point of view.
BS.

I'm sorry to see it at all.


Who make the notes?
 

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recce vs. route book

Let me throw out another question regarding pace notes. My understanding is that those who buy the notes get to recce the course a day or so ahead of time. Will those who use the route book get this opportunity too?
 

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RE: recce vs. route book

Pete Morris (building "Son of CoROLLa.) Lots of arguements for and against out there. HOWEVER, my concern is for the Club rally guys who run on a minimum budget like I do. If I had my way, no practice, no pace notes, no maps, no extra expense=lower entry fees. If you can drive a car, you drive blind. You rely on your navigator to call the route book instructions. We are trying to keep the costs down in rallying for ALL concerned.Rallying in the US needs to be split up.I am currently working on a project to make Treeline a 2 day event, tarmac on Fri night and dirt on Sat. If I am charged a reasonable amount, if any, for Fri night, my entry fee will be as low as I can manage to cover my expenses. I will not make my competitors pay for pace notes, nor will I make any. Rallying is man and machine against nature.Club rallying has been around for a long, long time and will continue to do so. Lets change the name to Hobbyrally. Any supporters out there?
 
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