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CR>R5 into L3- 100 Finish
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know this will create a lot of havoc, but maybe we can all get on the same wave length for the better of our sport.
So the question is...
What would it take to create one rule book and one national championship?
I have talked to other competitors and organizers (foreign) to find out what they do different than us.
Well, guess what! We have two championships in the US.
One comment was, "as long as you don't get your **** together nobody will take you serious". Other questions were, "why can't those two combine their efforts"?
I read in other "Rallye Magazines" about all kinds of series around the world, but the US is barely mentioned.
Ideally, have RA and NASA pick the best rallies from either "Body" and create ONE national championship. Wouldn't that make sense?
Would even be nice if CARS would be involved so us, that cross the border, wouldn't have to change anything to compete there.

Whiplash Rallye Sport
(Rallying is not a crime)
 

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I agree with you. If the two were to combine you could still keep the best of both worlds, i think it would be good to have a bigger organization, rally in North America would get more attention too.
 

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Dirt surfer
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Rally Utopia

You are talking about something so obvious and so logical that it's virtually impossible for it to happen.

Makes too much sense.

"Optimizing" sanctioning bodies would bring together larger fields, so that event/road rights/insurance costs could be spread over more entries, so costs would go down, so entry levels go up, and rallies might actually run at or (gasp!) ABOVE the break-even point!

There could be true regional "feeder" series that support the national events. One true North American championship.

After a couple seasons of running 2 different cars in 3 different series in 2 different countries, I know that our team for one would be totally supportive of this concept. I would be SO excited to trade in my current 3 rally licenses for ONE that worked wherever I showed up to race.

Yeah.

Dave G
www.lastditchracing.net




"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
 

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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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>Would even be nice if CARS would be involved so us, that cross
>the border, wouldn't have to change anything to compete
>there.

What do you have to change to compete across the border? Don't they accept RA logbooked cars that fit RA rules? What kind of things have you had to change competing over there?

?

Anders
 

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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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RE: Rally Utopia

Dave G wrote:
>I would be SO excited to trade in my current 3 rally licenses
>for ONE that worked wherever I showed up to race.

Hmmm... I'm curious... If the new, larger, combined organization had the exact same number of people running/organizing/doing it, such that the expenses were identical to now (only all going to one place) and your one license/membership fee equalled the sum of all your current fees, would you still be SO excited, or just a little excited?

I'm imagining (numbers made up)
NASA Rally license/membership $100 currently
RA Rally license/membership $100 currently
CARS Rally license/membership $100 currently

New universal organization license/membership $300

Still as exciting?

I'm trying to figure out if the "real" issue is cost, or if the "real" issue is the extra paperwork. (Of course I understand the hope that combining would remove redundancy which would remove some cost.)


Oh, I just had a new thought. Ok, say massive efficiency was gained, and there was a 33% removal of expenses. So now your universal license was $200. (again, all numbers just made up) So good, you saved some money. :)

But all the people who race only in Canada just had their expenses doubled. :(

So did all the people who race only in the Southeast (or pick any area where one sanctioning body generally does all the races)

Hmmmm, complicated.

Anders
 

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>I know this will create a lot of havoc, but maybe we can all
>get on the same wave length for the better of our sport.
>So the question is...
>What would it take to create one rule book and one national
>championship?

No havoc IMO; it's a good question.

>I have talked to other competitors and organizers (foreign) to
>find out what they do different than us.
>Well, guess what! We have two championships in the US.
>One comment was, "as long as you don't get your **** together
>nobody will take you serious". Other questions were, "why
>can't those two combine their efforts"?

Not being taken seriously by Europe personally does not bother me. But if it did, it would certainly take one organization to maximize the respect we might garner. But don't hold your breath IMO to be taken seriously by the European rally community; they seem to be doing quite well wihout the US being any part of their show. It might never happen even if we had a significantly different organizational structure here.

>Ideally, have RA and NASA pick the best rallies from either
>"Body" and create ONE national championship. Wouldn't that
>make sense?
Yes.

>Would even be nice if CARS would be involved so us, that cross
>the border, wouldn't have to change anything to compete
>there.
I vote to work on one problem at a time. I don't necessarily want to inflict our problems on Canada, when they seem to have their act together so darned well.

I think if you read Mike Hurst's recent post you will see that the vehicle rules are moving closer and closer together, and I think will more and more match FIA rules as far as safety equipment. NASA has accepted RA log-booked cars built to RA standards. I hope this becomes reciprocal. The only thing I see as a big difference in safety prep is the RA requirement for door sill bars. If that goes away, then the car safety rules are pretty identical.

Car classes are still a bit misaligned; dunno what is going to change that.

As far as one entry fee: Well, there has to be staff, materials, and other costs absorbed. If you cut the amount of license fees, the level of central organizational work will only go down, it seems to me. This could only currently be made up by Doug Havir's largess (which is the engine behind the RA organizational funding, I do believe). Beyond that, only a series sponsorship could make that up. (Sorry if I am stating the obvious.) Since none of this is clearly on the horizon, then I don't see how reducing license fees is a good thing in supporting overall organizations, although it might reduce a bit of the competitor inconvenience.

I also think that some very organizational diversity could be lost in a merger. I'll really get nailed for saying this, but I consider RA's strength to be in day-to-day organizational operations (a legacy IMO from the SCCA), but NASA has shown to me to be stronger in the area of new event 'site acquisition'. This is very reflective IMO in the talents of the lead individuals involved, and I can see us being worse off to lose either if a merger resulted in one lead group being shunted aside.

Will a merger take place that could keep both leadership sets intact and contributing in their area of strength? Right now, I would guess 'no'. IMO there is too much feeling of personal investment, ownership, and possibly difference in method of management on both sides. And maybe some ego too......remeber these are VERY small organizations, where individuals count for everyting. So unless, there is someone or soemthing beyond some vague 'overall good of the sport' that would make both leadership teams think that there is a good reason to merge, then I expect things to percolate along for a while yet as they are.

Regards,
Mark B.
 

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Faster Mabricator
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>Would even be nice if CARS would be involved so us, that cross
>the border, wouldn't have to change anything to compete
>there.

CARS has a good thing going. Lets not screw it up because of issues stateside. How about adopt their rules here.
 

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CR>R5 into L3- 100 Finish
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626 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I do not have any intent to screw things up for anyone.
Two sanctioning bodies is fine by me as well.
The only thing I really would like to see is that the "National Championship" could be run together.
It would mean that media and other countries, might get interested and maybe, just maybe, invest in some talent.
And not only that, competitors that only want to run the national, won't have to choose which one.

Whiplash Rallye Sport
(Rallying is not a crime)
 

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>I have talked to other competitors and organizers (foreign) to
>find out what they do different than us.
>Well, guess what! We have two championships in the US.
>One comment was, "as long as you don't get your **** together
>nobody will take you serious".

I sure wouldn't take us seriously if I was not from the US. We don't have many drivers that other folks from accross the sea are interested in.

Edit: Don't want to be misunderstood here...I think that in order for us to be taken seriously we need to build a talent pool from the ground up giving as many drivers a chance as possible. Since we have limited resources I think that the less we need to spend on our cars to make our cars competitive the more we could spend on getting to races.

I think that in regional rallies there should be a championship class like BRC and I think that that class should be Group F.

I think that as everyone races and improves they obviously do get faster but if they quit after a couple of years due to costs we have lost their talent and what it can bring to the seies.
 

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Dissenting Opinion

Dissenting opinion:

I think having two Santioning Bodies is a good thing. And having two Rally Championships is a tolerable consequence. (They could cooperate, but then.......... )

Not long ago there was only one Oganization with one Championship that couldn't satisfy the diverse opinions of a nationwide membership. It's was often chaos and some even said it became tyrannical.

Perhaps those pesky Free-Marketeers are correct and competion is a good thing all around. Eh, Comrades?

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
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RE: Opinion

Good if you think 24-car fields and 10 finishers with whole classes not represented is healthy.

We've accomplished a few things with two championships:
1. with no competition, everyone gets to win.
2. potential sponsors are staying away, waiting to see who prevails.
3. Kurt gets the 12-car rally he wanted.
4. serious competitors will burn out trying to cover both series.
5. organizers burn out trying to run events without enough competitors to break even.

If everyone would stand back and look at the whole picture instead of their own situation, it'd be clear the problem needs to be solved.
 

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RE: Opinion

>Good if you think 24-car fields and 10 finishers with whole
>classes not represented is healthy.
>
I wonder if the real problem is that each sanctioning body has it's own championship. There are three national championships in the US and Canada (and perhaps the fact that we have three sanctioning bodies could actually be managable if we had a more functional number of championships). Is there a doable way we can we uncouple the number of national championships from the number of sanctioning bodies?

It seems that each sanctioning body is trying to hype it's brand of a "championship", and everyone ignores the NARC, which IMHO should be the biggest prize (most hyped/covered). Quick quiz: Name the top 3 mexican rally teams? I have no idea who they are.

Is there any hope for a NARC-type North American championship that bridges all sanctioning bodies? Could a third body be formed to administer/market the NARC? This would crown true champions and have the best hope of attracting meaningful sponsorship. Is there a functional way we could select championship events (without bias/competitve pressure from vested interests). Maybe CARS, NASA, RA could agree to let the competitors or organizers vote on which events are are to be counted for NARC?

Lots of resources are being poured into the current redundant "national championships". Seems to me everyone would benefit if some of these resources could be re-directed toward the NA and regional championships. We said it during the SCCA years, and I think it's still true today: There are at least three tiers of competitors (based on thier ability to travel).

So how about this structure:

-A count-six NARC series made up of 8-12 of the "highest profile" event in NA. Number of events coudl be increased as sponsorship allowed more teams to compete at this level. Could be Group N-only (to bridge all three sanctioning bodies car prep rules). Making it GN-only wouldn't hurt the little teams (that can't afford a GN car) in this case since only big budgets could afford the travel costs/time costs to do such a series.

-Divide NA into 6 regions based loosely on geography and number of avalable events. All sanctioning bodies' evetns would count in regional championships. This would require rules standardization, but rules standardization should be doable if everyone agrees to grandfather curretn cars. Regions could be Canada-East, Canada-West, Mexico, US-West, US-Central, US-West. Any sanctioning bodies events would be included. Be sure to get these events enough incentive/media to incent the regional teams to stay regional and not burn-out trying to chase the NARC title. Maybe a invitational/funded run-off event at the end of the year at the final NARC event?

I'm not saying this would be easy, feel free to fire away,

Jim Cox
#558
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>
 

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>What would it take to create one rule book and one national
>championship?


What will it take? Hmmmm... Everyone crawls on their knees to Topeka and begs SCCA for forgiveness and to please take them back.
 

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>
>I sure wouldn't take us seriously if I was not from the US.
>We don't have many drivers that other folks from accross the
>sea are interested in.
>
>


They'll be interested in me.}(
 

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>
>>
>>I sure wouldn't take us seriously if I was not from the US.
>>We don't have many drivers that other folks from accross the
>>sea are interested in.
>>
>>
>
>
>They'll be interested in me.}(

Why? Do you have enough money to get their attention? And if you do are you worth noticing?
 

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don't cut
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>I sure wouldn't take us seriously if I was not from the US.
>We don't have many drivers that other folks from accross the
>sea are interested in.
>

Not true. The rest of the world is very interested in what goes on over here. The US is a HUGE untapped market for rally. If the sport gains a foothold over here, it will mean big bucks. The WRC and it's teams would like nothing better than to put an American in a WRC car (David Richard's words, not mine). So far no American has been able to put together the trifecta of youth, ability, and backing necessary to get into a WRC ride, but when he/she does, the ride will be there.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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>What would it take to create one rule book and one national
>championship?

It could happen today, just get all the event organizers to pick the same sanctioning body.

The organizers control which Championship their event is listed under. Different organizers have different ideas on what organizing rules they should have to follow and what goals they have for their events. They pick the sanctioning body that is the best fit for them.

Isn't that why we have two sanctioning bodies in the first place?
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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The reason there are two currently and while there will not be one without one body losing out is that they both think they are right and the other is wrong and I don't foresee either compromising. I've heard people say one or the other is better for one or another reason. But the fact is both have there methods, think they are right, and want the same thing. To be the premiere rally championship in the US. Now what would be great is if one would focus on grassroots and regional events and championships, while the other focuses on national championships. But they both want the glory. And we all are stuck in the middle either benefitting or not, depending on way too many factors.

So, no, there will not be one until one of the two falters.
 

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>
>>I sure wouldn't take us seriously if I was not from the US.
>>We don't have many drivers that other folks from accross the
>>sea are interested in.
>>
>
>Not true. The rest of the world is very interested in what
>goes on over here. The US is a HUGE untapped market for
>rally. If the sport gains a foothold over here, it will mean
>big bucks. The WRC and it's teams would like nothing better
>than to put an American in a WRC car (David Richard's words,
>not mine). So far no American has been able to put together
>the trifecta of youth, ability, and backing necessary to get
>into a WRC ride, but when he/she does, the ride will be
>there.

I'm sure they would love our market but we don't have the support for drivers who have talent.

I think that we need a low spec spec series like the 206 cup or something on the national level to groom talent and creat awareness (sound familiar eh)

I think that we need Group F on the regional level. Since costs are what are holding so many competitors back we need to address it. I have ideas I think would work. For the midwest we could do Sno Drift, Paris, 100 acre, Headwaters, Star, 10000 lakes, Paul Bunyan, Keewenaw and Ottawa Challenge. Just take your 7 or so best scores and drop the rest. That would get a lot of Lake States folks a chance to enter and also give the southern folks a good shot.

Regional Tow Fund - $1000 per event split amongst all Group F teams based on the mileage they towed.

Modest payouts - $300 for first, $200 for second, $100 for third place in Group F

And a little help with tires, lodging, fuel, or food would go a long way to bring folks back in.

I guess it's september again so we could hash out all over again. We could just cut and paste our posts from last year.
 
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