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codriveur
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1,385 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I think there is a lot of confusion over the word/process of "Reconnaissance" in the context of what is available for the average amature American competitor.

The old Recce as I understand it was driving the road several times and making your notes from scratch. For the people with the experiance and the skills this was safer & faster than running truly blind. I have no experiance with this form and have no idea how to do this properly. I do not think this is for anyone but the top people .

I think modern Recce for the amature rallyist is taking the notes you bought and going over the course. I would call this Modified Recce. I checked our note books from the 2 RNY conducted this year. I made @ the suggestion of my driver 38 modifications to the notes (Not just highlighting as that is for me. We had actual "No I want that called a L3 not a L4+" or lots of "No cut!" or "Cut! & Hook it!" additions, etc. Not to mention the numerous additions of landmarks and features I made so I could find my place if needed.) There was not enough time to truly run every stage more than once and write your own notes unless your crazy or truly that good. Since your made to buy the notes why would you start from scratch?

We added our own vernacular so that we could better communicate, as a result run safer, see our kids @ the end of the day, and yes, go faster. In that order.

Did I miss something? What is wrong with that?

Bernie
 

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straight at T
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2,472 Posts
>I think there is a lot of confusion over the word/process of
>"Reconnaissance" in the context of what is available for the
>average amature American competitor.
>
>The old Recce as I understand it was driving the road several
>times and making your notes from scratch. For the people with
>the experiance and the skills this was safer & faster than
>running truly blind. I have no experiance with this form and
>have no idea how to do this properly. I do not think this is
>for anyone but the top people .

Reconnaissance is still multiple passes over the road. Typically a limited number for all sorts of organizational, PR, safety, etc... reasons. You can make your own notes from scratch or base them on an existing set of notes (stage notes, other competitors' pace notes, your pace notes from previous events...). However, if you don't get at least two passes (one to make the notes and the other to check/refine them), making your own notes from scratch is probably more dangerous than running the stage notes blind.

>I think modern Recce for the amature rallyist is taking the
>notes you bought and going over the course. I would call this
>Modified Recce. I checked our note books from the 2 RNY
>conducted this year. I made @ the suggestion of my driver 38
>modifications to the notes (Not just highlighting as that is
>for me. We had actual "No I want that called a L3 not a L4+"
>or lots of "No cut!" or "Cut! & Hook it!" additions, etc. Not
>to mention the numerous additions of landmarks and features I
>made so I could find my place if needed.) There was not enough
>time to truly run every stage more than once and write your
>own notes unless your crazy or truly that good.

Then what you did was more of a familiarization rather than a reconnaissance. If the schedule didn't allow enough time to get two relaxed passes over all the stage roads then I wouldn't consider it to truly be reconnaissance. (I don't know how tight the RNY schedule was - i.e. whether the problem was on the schedule end or the competitor end.)

>Since your
>made to buy the notes why would you start from scratch?

Most events don't force you to buy stage notes. I would probably buy notes of some form if they were available for an event I hadn't run before, but if I had notes from a previous running of the event (and there wasn't a substantial amount of new stage road), I probably would just start from my previous notes. In answer to your question, the modifications to the stage notes to suit what your driver wants might take more effort than making pace notes from scratch

Adrian
 

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codriveur
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1,385 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I agree what we did was more of a familiarization. The point I was trying to make is with all the conjecture about the benefits of recce in the other current thread and in the past, very few if anyone actually is doing "REAL" recce given the chance in the events I've had the chance to compete in that allowed it. (Last 2 RNY). So much of the discussion about recce is moot.

The reality of what I've seen in 2 RNY events is as I described, teams run the stage to check and make ammendments in the notes they must purchase/are included. I do not think there is anything wrong with it as most teams do not have the ability to make pace notes. I think it improves safety because the driver and co driver actually feel they can trust the notes. Some in the discussion are doing just this and think they are doing recce.

There needs to be a better term for this process as what people are doing is being confused by some with what recce really is.

Bernie
 

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Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
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2,953 Posts
Bernie,
If you wanted to just familiarize yourselves, fine.
If you hustle, make a movement plan and schedule, you CAN write your own notes and check them at RNY.
This does not require speeding but just rambling around from ss1 to ss2 to ss3 to ss4 won't make it, it takes planning.
---
I'd like to remind everyone that Ivan isn't trying to go faster... he's not competeing but trying to keep his rally safe and the competitors comfortable. He does that by making all information available and you can do what you want with it.
---
Anyone who tries to fudge and speed at RNY will be caught - just plan on it. The State Police know the roads and where to be.
---
Mark,
Olga may be available. She said she'd leave Ivan if he ran two events in one year again.

rz
 

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straight at T
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2,472 Posts
RE: What Reconnaissance was and what Reconnaissance is.

>I agree what we did was more of a familiarization. The point
>I was trying to make is with all the conjecture about the
>benefits of recce in the other current thread and in the past,
>very few if anyone actually is doing "REAL" recce given the
>chance in the events I've had the chance to compete in that
>allowed it. (Last 2 RNY). So much of the discussion about
>recce is moot.

The competitors at Baie, Defi, Pacific Forest, the western Canadian regional events, Charlevoix (when it existed), Quebec (ditto) and Cherokee (at least when I ran it in 2001) were doing real recce - making their own notes - there weren't always organizer notes to start from. There are a reasonable number of competitors in North America with experience in 'real' recce.

Adrian
 

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codriveur
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1,385 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
->Bernie,
->If you wanted to just familiarize yourselves, fine.
->If you hustle, make a movement plan and schedule, you CAN write your own notes and check them at RNY.
This does not require speeding but just rambling around from ss1 to ss2 to ss3 to ss4 won't make it, it takes planning.

Short of going the wrong way early, I think it would be hard to go over the stages 2 times @ a relaxed pace as Adrian has suggested. I'm somewhat local, so we took several roads I know to make better time from stage to stage without speeding and it was still very tight.

I do not think many, if any, middle on pack to rear marker guy's who account for 2/3's or more of the field can do proper recce. I think there is still much to be gained by doing what I am sure most everyone else was doing. Familiarization as Adrian called it. I also am on Ivan's side on this as the front runners like yourself and the rides Adrian takes should have the oppertunity to do real recce. I think there is no question it is safer for professionals going @ your clip.

But for people to think that everyone on the regular "Club" level are attempting, doing, able, or wanting to anything more than familiarization is just not true and I think much of the discussion has been muddled with fear of "Club" level guys trying to do real recce. That is not what is happening. THAT would be less safe. (But the process of familiarization does give a good look inside of what it would really take.)

I guess I'm trying to say everyone should get there knickers untwisted. Recce is safer for the people who can & should do it, the rest of us are safer for being able to get familiar with what we are going to see and not running blind.


Bernie


ps

Did you guy's write your own notes or use the supplied notes? The audio to the video I chose to view a couple of months ago was dead on the notes supplied with a few changes just like I described.
 

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RE: What Reconnaissance was and what Reconnaissance is.

when i was learning how to do recce in the uk when I started I often didn't get 2 passes because i sucked at making notes. THe pressure to make them right and fast enough forced me to learn how to do it properly. If there was no pressure to do it properly, then i might have never learned. In other words, if you dumb something down to the lowest common denominator then no one ever steps beyond it. Why would you, if you can make recce take three days and only do it from 10 am to 4pm with a siesta for lunch. The point is, "over there", the "if you want 2 passes you'd better get up at 5 and not stop till 8 and have a plan and not mess up" is how you learn how to do it so it is NOT a pain (for the organizers), except you might have to miss a few drinks at the bar the night before. And the philosophy is that if you don't make it, well, you should have. I'm not trying to be harsh, just presenting another point of view.
 

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codriveur
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
RE: What Reconnaissance was and what Reconnaissance is.

I get your point, and agree.

But, the time window @ the RNY event is not so generous as 5am-8pm. If we had that I would make my driver do it for my benefit if for no other reason. It doesn't mean we would use them, but to learn.


Bernie
 

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RE: What Reconnaissance was and what Reconnaissance is.

Pat I have to agree with you that is the proper way of doing it, that being said there is just too much opposition from people in the states against it for it ever to really happen save a few events. Now that being said I do think we should use Recce, I htink everyone should be using notes and not jsut the safety factor. At least out west and I have heard comments from people in other parts of the country that since the introduction of Stage notes less attention to detail is being put into Route books. In the views of others there are a few events that have never had very good route books. IF you folks want to argue against notes and recce in any form as some people would like then we need to go back and take a long look at a lot of route books and the way they are being written. Just my .02
 

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Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
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2,953 Posts
RE: Reconnaissance

Bernie,
With Rusty at RNYUSA, we went over the supplied notes and checked them on pass #2 (we did them all twice and made it).
On the earlier RNY, we had to drop the 2nd pass on some of the easier stages.
If Shindle was there, we may have made our own notes.
---
Making your own from scratch scares me because I need to take the responsibility - but doing it makes you better for the next time so the practice is good. I've gotten "pretty" good at it but it is very stessful for me.
If time were unlimited, or nobody needed sleep, it'd be fun to make notes, compare against the book and merge them, but again, Shindle could do it a lot easier than Rusty.

rz
 

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RE: Reconnaissance

yeah ok so maybe my "get up at 5 and do it till 8" example is bad, but a better example is the cdn Regionals where its "get up at 6 and do it till 2 or 4pm" (or whatever) and start that night or whatever.
 

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www.christianedstrom.com
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RE: What Reconnaissance was and what Reconnaissance is.

Jeff,

Who do you think is opposed to recce? I think organizers don't like it because it _seems_ like more work to them. I think most drivers are ready to take the step, if the cost/time challenges are resolved.

I think the sanctioning bodies don't have an official opinion either way.

- Christian

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
 

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Road books are for transits.
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RE: What Reconnaissance was and what Reconnaissance is.

There are a reasonable
>number of competitors in North America with experience in
>'real' recce.
>
>Adrian
>

With all the respect, but I can only think of about 5, maybe 6 codrivers in N.A. that have the knowledge to make GOOD notes and even a smaller number of drivers...

Alex Gelsomino
www.alexgelsomino.com
 

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Dirt surfer
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Recce Rules!

There are dozens of teams in North America doing their own notes...mostly north of the border. Many of the Canadian Championship events give 2-pass recce. There's real pressure here, cause there are no organizer-supplied notes to base things on. For the codriver, recce day is often more tiring that the race itself.

You learn the hard way, by running recce in time allotted, being efficient, making the best notes you can and living with what you got when you're flying down the hot stages. A couple of scares, an minor off or 3 (hopefully not a big one) will sharpen your focus and make you better.

You learn to read the road more accurately, be more concise, focus on the details that mean most to your driver, learn pacing and phrasing and calm delivery and all of a sudden you're flying like never before. The trust learned and earned between pilote and copilote thru recce makes for a highly satisfying experience.

I did a recce/notes course at Team O'Neil, where Marc Goldfarb's guidance shortened the learning curve significantly. We adapted Jemba terminology for our own note-writing, which really helps cut confusion when you go back to running Jemba notes.

The recce-on-stage-notes style events like Rally NY seem like great learning opportunities for those without the time and/or opportunity to learn recce elsewhere.

Having done recce at two seasons' worth of CRC events as a codriver and a couple runs at RNY as a driver, all I can say is that Recce Rules, no matter how ya do it.

cheers,

Dave G
www.lastditchracing.net
 

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Faster Mabricator
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3,611 Posts
RE: What Reconnaissance was and what Reconnaissance is.

>With all the respect, but I can only think of about 5, maybe 6
>codrivers in N.A. that have the knowledge to make GOOD notes
>and even a smaller number of drivers...

I disagree. Recce has been a part of the Canadian championship for years and most National Canadian teams are fairly well experienced. Charlevoix had 3 long days dedicated to recce. It ain't rocket science.

I was surprised watching the incar Pike's Peak coverage last year at how poorly US teams handled the pacenote opportunity.
 

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RE: What Reconnaissance was and what Reconnaissance is.

May I Ask the question who is aposed to using recce/pacenotes? Is it because of time or a fear of lack of skill on behalf of co-drivers or just another hassle for the organizers of an event. So far I dont see any good points on the behalf of those who are gainst it.


As if my opinion mattered:p
 

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don't cut
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RE: What Reconnaissance was and what Reconnaissance is.

>With all the respect, but I can only think of about 5, maybe 6
>codrivers in N.A. that have the knowledge to make GOOD notes
>and even a smaller number of drivers...
>
>Alex Gelsomino
>www.alexgelsomino.com


I'm pretty sure I can't, and I'd be scared about going to a national and trying to make my own notes for the first time. I'd like to see a few club rallies offer recce so it can be learned in a lower pressure environment. I guess the other option is to go to our own respective "top secret" test roads and start practicing there, but that's dangerous, possibly irresponsible, and potentially bad for the sport.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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RE: What Reconnaissance was and what Reconnaissance is.

>I was surprised watching the incar Pike's Peak coverage last
>year at how poorly US teams handled the pacenote opportunity.


How can you watch the incar from one competitor and lump all US teams into that category? I was also surprised at how terrible the pacenotes were until I realized that we were watching Doug Shepard, who (I think) raced against General Palmer in the first ever Hill Climb in 1916.

Doug, that last comment was to emphasize experience, not age :7
 

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Faster Mabricator
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3,611 Posts
RE: What Reconnaissance was and what Reconnaissance is.

>May I Ask the question who is opposed to using
>recce/pacenotes? Is it because of time or a fear of lack of
>skill on behalf of co-drivers or just another hassle for the
>organizers of an event. So far I dont see any good points on
>the behalf of those who are gainst it.

It is mostly a time and $ thing.

A long event has multiple days set aside just for recce. Since there are no real pro teams here, competitors must use our vacation or other leave from their day jobs.

The money issue is worse. With entry fees already skyrocketing, to add to it the cost the organizer has to include a recce (control workers to check the teams into and out of the stages, perhaps a reccebook, stagecards, car # decals for the reccecar, having registration open for recce,...) is going to be a fianancial burden for the low budget teams. Thanks to a competitor's anonymous donation (you know who you are (as do I) and I thank you), these cost were not passed on to Canadian competitors last season at the events that offered a recce.
Then you have gas $, perhaps a rental car and if you don't, expect a bunch of wear and tear and more-often-than-not a total beating on whose-ever car you use. I'm am still finding mud from Defi in my reccecar after the recce in the hurricane rain driving thru practically beaverponds last summer, extra days of hotel rooms,...And you can spend in recce loads more by having a dedicated equipped reccecar (skidplate, rallytires, odo, rally suspension,...).

And its a lot of work and for codrivers usually meaning staying up most the night re-writing the notes and little sleep.

I enjoy a good recce every once in awhile, but am not opposed to forking out a meager $250 for Jemba notes than having to recce every event.
What I don't understand is the people posting here lobbying for the opportunity to recce in the US who have never participated in a recce elsewhere, understand the work involved or associated cost but think they have to have it. And its the people who already complain about costs and those who miss events citing lack of funding as the reason. Duh.

Biases aside, Jemba is a bargain.
 

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RZ,

Thanks you pointing out my opportunity! This is the only real reason I am in this discussion. I think I will tell Ivan he should put on 3 events this year!

Regards,
Mark B. :7
 
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