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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
OK, some have said in a different post that many things are wrong. They didn't want to stray on that topic, so here is a new one.

As a Club Rally Steward (in training), an organizer, a competitor, spectator and crew, I am interested to know what is so wrong with CLUB (not Pro, CLUB) Rally.

Please put your specific gripe in the subject to keep things tidy for this topic.

I want specifics, AND a solution as you see it. A problem with no solution is just that - a problem. We all need to be part of the solution.

[FONT COLOR="FF0000"]NOTE: THIS IS NOT TO BE AN OFFICIAL THREAD THAT WILL BE ACTED ON, THIS IS JUST CONVERSATION. IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING THAT YOU FEEL NEEDS IMMEDIATE ATTENTION PLEASE E-MAIL, CALL, OR DEAD TREE MAIL YOUR PRB PRD OR STEWARD[/FONT]
 

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I'm not as many things as Bill is (where does he find the TIME?) but I'm a ClubRally Steward, too. I look forward to some good discussions in this thread. The folks I talk to think that ClubRally is coming along just fine, thank you...but they might just be humoring me.

There have been a lot of general gripes - let's get specific. If you don't tell us, we can't fix it.

Bruce
 

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As a NewEngland driver who is looking at two of the larger co-events of the summer (STPR/Maine) going pro only this year, it's upsetting to know it will be a few years before they are replaced. And it's enough to light the fire under at least 1/2 dozen driver's tails in the area to do something about it and investigate starting a new event or two. Trouble is, there is very, very little in the way of assistance to help make this happen.

Shooting from the hip, these are some of the things I see that are needed to help regional folks set up more rallies and "fix" Club:

SCCA resource (a human) who has a big picture view of all US club events that is avail to answer questions.

National Parks contracts/contacts. If the scca is serious about making club the farm team for pro, and knowing many events are held on US Park/Forest land, let's see the SCCA set up an arangement, understanding, etc...whatever, with the National park service and get us those contacts to give the little, regional guy a leg to stand on when he/she approaches Ranger Rick about bombing down his forest roads.

Demographics information from past events, and how to use/spin/pitch it to a town/champer of commerce etc. With the number of depressed communities in NE, pitching a rally as a way to inject ***,***.00 into the local econ would be a great icebreaker at the town meeting...trouble is, what is the range of that number?

ClubRally is broken because the wheel has to be reinvented every single time a new event is brought into the fray. The density exists in NE for more club events, but ClubRally needs the SCCA and all it's money/power (no laughing!) to help make it happen.
 

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Sepreation of National & Club events

I myself feel that we should be moving towards the seperation of Pro and club cars at dual events. Some events run both a National and regional at the same event. Same roads, same stages, same cars. Lately some organisers have been making it so that National cars cannot compete in the regional portion of the event. For example: It used to be that you could run Maine Forest or STPR National, pay $50 more and be entered in the regionals. These events have become too big to continue this. But I believe some US events still alow competitors to double enter.
This makes it real hard for the Club guy to get anyware at the regional level, because they are running a club event but competing against National cars.
The idea of getting points for two events by running just one event is very appealing, I myself am guilty of doing this. but It is frustrating for the new guy trying to do their best.
Recently I have run a couple events in Canada that have been seperated, (as a club car) and it works out very well. And the club guy can still compare times against the national cars.
I say no more dual entries !
Brian
http://www.glhracing.com
 

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>As a NewEngland driver who is looking at two of the larger
>co-events of the summer (STPR/Maine) going pro only this
>year, it's upsetting to know it will be a few years before
>they are replaced.

Well, there are seven ClubRallies scheduled for NEDiv this season, I hear...

>SCCA resource (a human) who has a big picture view of all US
>club events that is avail to answer questions.

Do you envision this as a paid position? Your ClubRally Steward should be available, and should have access to the information you need...he IS a volunteer, however...the CRSs meet monthly to compare notes and problems.

>
>National Parks contracts/contacts. If the scca is serious
>about making club the farm team for pro, and knowing many
>events are held on US Park/Forest land, let's see the SCCA
>set up an arangement, understanding, etc...whatever, with
>the National park service and get us those contacts to give
>the little, regional guy a leg to stand on when he/she
>approaches Ranger Rick about bombing down his forest roads.
>

This sounds like a good idea in theory, but in practice we've found that all USFS decisions are made LOCALLY, and many local USFS folks don't take well to directives from above. OTOH, there are several ClubRally organizers who have dealt successfully with their local folks...maybe we should have them put some things together that would help.


>Demographics information from past events, and how to
>use/spin/pitch it to a town/champer of commerce etc. With
>the number of depressed communities in NE, pitching a rally
>as a way to inject ***,***.00 into the local econ would be a
>great icebreaker at the town meeting...trouble is, what is
>the range of that number?
>

This IS a good idea, and has worked well already, but most of the information we have is from ProRallies. Information gathering is the key here...someone needs to get it together.

>ClubRally is broken because the wheel has to be reinvented
>every single time a new event is brought into the fray. The
>density exists in NE for more club events, but ClubRally
>needs the SCCA and all it's money/power (no laughing!) to
>help make it happen.

I think there's more help available than you believe. Your ClubRally Steward has access to a LOT of information on putting on new events...you should never have to reinvent the wheel. Someone needs to put this stuff together in a package and make it available.

Do you sense a pattern here? Sounds like more work for already overworked volunteers :)

Good thoughts.

Bruce
 

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In reply to the comment by RALLYHO (mike?)
I agree.. It would be very helpful to have this info.
Some may fire back that SCCA has compiled a site acquisition package.
DON'T believe them. I have this package, and there is not anything that answers your VERY REAL questions.
just a sample letter stating how great SCCA is, demographics and a insurance declaration sheet.

There are a lot of people willing to lend a hand,
But like myself they are overwhelmed by the HUGE task of approaching potential land owners/managers.

Brian
 

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Comments on Rallyho ideas.

Like Bill I am a Club Rally Steward (in training), a competitor (driver and co-driver), spectator and crew. This is a great thread idea lets make it valuable. Take arguemnts onto another thread and lets keep this one to the point.

Rallyho wrote:
>SCCA resource (a human) who has a big picture view of all US
>club events that is avail to answer questions.
>
>National Parks contracts/contacts. If the scca is serious
>about making club the farm team for pro, and knowing many
>events are held on US Park/Forest land, let's see the SCCA
>set up an arangement, understanding, etc...whatever, with
>the National park service and get us those contacts to give
>the little, regional guy a leg to stand on when he/she
>approaches Ranger Rick about bombing down his forest roads.

This sounds like a great idea but like Bruce said there are some serious limitations (local control issues). Perhaps this should be addressed a little differently. Rally needs a number of things to grow successfully in the USA. We need exposure (we are getting that) we need many more new participants (sort of getting that) we need access to areas to race (not really happening). Each of these three things are hugely important.

Having someone at the national office take on a position of lobbyist might make sense. The support and knowlege that this person produces would be avaliable to all rally organizers not just Club or Pro. The person would work to gather information from organizers who have had success and help formulate a method that would help those who have not had success. The person could premptivly work with varoius agencies and localities to create a positive relationship prior to even trying to organize an event, sort of identifying cooperative agencies and localities and laying the ground work.

I see this person as a part time to full time person that in the near future should be able to be funded by our growth. Sanction fees just went up, I'm not sure exactly why but that money IS going to further the sport and this type of position will absolutly further the sport.

Bradney A. Boli
Over Exposure Racing
Honda Accord #311
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
>As a NewEngland driver who is looking at two of the larger
>co-events of the summer (STPR/Maine) going pro only this
>year, it's upsetting to know it will be a few years before
>they are replaced. And it's enough to light the fire under
>at least 1/2 dozen driver's tails in the area to do
>something about it and investigate starting a new event or
>two. Trouble is, there is very, very little in the way of
>assistance to help make this happen.

who have you asked for help? I have found other organizers to be a far greater asset than 'Denver', and rightly so, as we are the ones with the knowledge you seek...

>
>SCCA resource (a human) who has a big picture view of all US
>club events that is avail to answer questions.
>

Not sure if that is possible. I know the Stewards are all available, and we do meet monthly, with almost daily e-mail discussions. That might be an incredible source to hit up for some info.


>National Parks contracts/contacts. If the scca is serious
>about making club the farm team for pro, and knowing many
>events are held on US Park/Forest land, let's see the SCCA
>set up an arangement, understanding, etc...whatever, with
>the National park service and get us those contacts to give
>the little, regional guy a leg to stand on when he/she
>approaches Ranger Rick about bombing down his forest roads.

That is not such a great idea. Local rangers do their own thing, and do not like to be guided through the process. Ranger Rick is going to be the final say, we just need to know how to present it to Rick correctly. Some won't ever like what we do, though.


>
>Demographics information from past events, and how to
>use/spin/pitch it to a town/champer of commerce etc. With
>the number of depressed communities in NE, pitching a rally
>as a way to inject ***,***.00 into the local econ would be a
>great icebreaker at the town meeting...trouble is, what is
>the range of that number?
>

BULLY IDEA!!! I know from the Pro standpoint it averages to about 2 Million Dollars (Prescott), when multiplied by the economic factor (and could be higher depending on the area). I would think a Club event to be about 1/5 of that. Give some specifics on what exactly you are looking for here and maybe I can throw together a questionaire...

>ClubRally is broken because the wheel has to be reinvented
>every single time a new event is brought into the fray. The
>density exists in NE for more club events, but ClubRally
>needs the SCCA and all it's money/power (no laughing!) to
>help make it happen.

I disagree. AZ has few competitors, and we will have 12+ events this year (mostly rallycrosses) with 3 more club rallies scheduled to come online in the next 2 years. Very few people in Az have been on the organizing part of this ball, and none of the SCCA's power or money came into play. It has been a labor of love from the locals. It is a full time job, and someone must step up to the plate (of which it sounds like they are up there). Again, ask other organizers to help out, even us on the West coast, we are all full of it!!! (help that is) :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
new person in Denver

>Having someone at the national office take on a position of
>lobbyist might make sense. The support and knowlege that
>this person produces would be avaliable to all rally
>organizers not just Club or Pro. The person would work to
>gather information from organizers who have had success and
>help formulate a method that would help those who have not
>had success. The person could premptivly work with varoius
>agencies and localities to create a positive relationship
>prior to even trying to organize an event, sort of
>identifying cooperative agencies and localities and laying
>the ground work.
>
>I see this person as a part time to full time person that in
>the near future should be able to be funded by our growth.
>Sanction fees just went up, I'm not sure exactly why but
>that money IS going to further the sport and this type of
>position will absolutly further the sport.


This would be an incredible asset!!! A liason between events, stewards, and all other aspects of the sport..
 

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Separation of Club and Pro

I guess I want to start with some positive points. There have been a couple things done that I think have really helped ClubRally over the past year. First of all, being in CenDiv, the number and quality of events is great this year. Headwaters and the clubrallies supporting Ojibwe and LSPR, and Sno-Drift have always been great. And hats off to the organizers of the Arkasaw, Gold Rush, and Magnum Opus for giving us a place to run. I know there are regions that don't have this variety of events, so I sympathize with them... but I wanted to recognize the great work in CenDiv. One improvement I can suggest, though, is to market the ClubRallies a bit better. Get the towns involved, a bit more exposure, etc.

Second, the separation of Club and Pro fields at the joint events has been great. It has really helped identify who are the true club and true pro competitors, and leveled the playing field. However, I believe that instead of just raising the price for dual entries, we should eliminate it altogether. In addition, allowing Pro competitors to run in the second clubrally after a DNF on the first day should be banned. I agree with letting them run as "also-rans" (ie, Cherokee Trails last year), but not score them in the clubrallies. That way, DNF'd pro entries will not affect the divisional club championships that are being contested.

However, I do like the combined seeding and running order. It provides a safer run order, and gives club competitors better exposure that if they were stuck 5 minutes behind the rest of the field. This method also elminiates the problem of club guys running dual entries at pro events just to get road position.

But what really needs to be fixed is the separation of Club and Pro teams. On one hand, you have club teams entering ProRallies - either becuase there is a lack of true clubrallies in their area, or they just want to run with the big boys. On the other hand, we regularly see pro teams with killer cars enter clubrallies and beat the snot out of the local boys. The problem is that there are very few true pro teams out there, and it costs a great deal of money to run a full pro schedule. So, you end up having semi-pro teams (with great equipment and drivers) running a few ProRallies per year, and then running ClubRallies because they can't travel cross-country. That's why I was always in favor of a Super-D type championship on each coast. Let the true clubbies compete for the Divisional titles, the semi-pro teams can do the Super-D, and the big boys can run the national series.
 

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RE: Separation of Club and Pro

Once upon a time, Divisional(now Club) rallies were limited to competitors Seed 2 and lower. If this has been stopped, it should be reestablished. We did occasionally allow a high seed competitor to "audit" a Divisional rally for testing purposes.(i.e., not included in the scoring, but paid to run).
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
RE: Separation of Club and Pro

I would like to get more insight to the 'also ran' theory. I heard it went well, but was a bit of a logistics work. If road position is not a factor, why else would you dual enter. The 2 reasons I can see is points for the guy running at the Pro in their region, and going after the club championship... and seat time.

Are there other reasons to dual enter?
 

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Why Dual Entry?

I believe the discussion about combined seeding shed some light on this. It looks as though it is easier to get seed 4 and seed 3 running a PRO event (top 50% finisher) as opposed to a Club event, where you must finish top 3. As previously stated, when a bunch of EVOs show up at a club event, it's not easy moving up in seed.
 

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RE: Separation of Club and Pro

The rule is still in existence, but it should be changed to seed 3 and lower. We've got several people who finish in the top 10 in a ProRally , and even a ProRally national class champion, coming in a taking ClubRally Divisional championships at the same time, or at least running an occasional Club event, messing up the championship picture for the true Club guys.
 

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RE: Separation of Club and Pro

>The rule is still in existence, but it should be changed to
>seed 3 and lower. We've got several people who finish in the
>top 10 in a ProRally , and even a ProRally national class
>champion, coming in a taking ClubRally Divisional
>championships at the same time, or at least running an
>occasional Club event, messing up the championship picture
>for the true Club guys.

A couple of other options:

- Allowing Seed 2 and higher to enter but "opt out" of the event for points. Some ClubRally folks like to compare themselves against the "big boys" - they just don't like to lose points to them. And many events - especially new ones - need the entries.

- Making a driver ineligible for a ClubRally Championship when he/she has a certain number of Pro points in a season...or perhaps a number of Pro events.

- A simple, "No person shall win both a Pro and a Club Championship in the same year." On second thought, better make that"...on the same side of the car."

Bruce
 

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Lack of information for newbies

I'm an aspiring co-driver in Michigan and I don't know if I just haven't looked hard enough, but I'm really having a hard time finding a clubrally schedule for my division. I'd like to know how many events we could theoretically enter in a given season.

Adam
 

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Car Inflation in Open

The various hi-performance non-U.S. cars are starting to trickle down from ProRally to ClubRally. I can understand (if not agree) that one of the goals of the NWO is internationalizing ProRally and encouraging the proliferation of EVOs and WRXs. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to allow $50,000 cars in the entry-level "club" form of the sport.

The proposed three-tier system could have addressed that easily, but now we are faced with the beginnings of a real crisis for the club competitor. You have to let the purpose-built supercars run somewhere, but putting them in a class with aging Audis, Imprezas and Talons seriously disrupts the quality of competition.

I don't have a solution to suggest short of actual lists of cars eligable for each class, but this problem is just going to get worse.
 

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RE: Car Inflation in Open

If you read the Rule Book - Chapter 1, I believe - you'll see what the PRB and SCCA define as the goals of ClubRally. Interestinly, only one bullet point relates to the concept of creating an environment that is fun and affordable for the masses. The PRB's vision of Club is to provide a feeder system for new events, workers, sponsors, and SCCA members.

(Yes, I realize that the list presented in the rule book is not weighted and the bullet points may not be considered equal.)
 
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