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Discussion Starter #1
I'm considering purchasing a CNC Brakes hydraulic 'staging brake' handbrake. But to comply with federal safety standards, this brake must lock in place, right? Originally, I was going to hack something up and somehow lock the handle in place. But then I was directed to a hydraulic park lock device which does the same thing. Unfortunately, I don't have the link handy.

Question is, will this be enough to make the car street legal? And will it pass tech at an event?

See it's my understanding that the federal regs require a separate system from the hydraulics to act as an e-brake, thus why everything is cable operated.

So what have others who have hydraulic handbrakes done?
 

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One option is to leave the stock handbrake complete alone and build a hydraulic system "over" it, or slightly to the side. I think this is the only really legal way of doing it.

Skye
 

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Vincent - the question that I have is WHY you woudl want a hydraulic handbrake in a FWD car in any case ... The number of corners around here that need a handbrake to turn them is very small ...
 

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Discussion Starter #4
It's complicated. All the Saab rally guys in the US told me I should put in a hydraulic setup. Stock Saab e-brakes on the older 99s and 900s operated on the front calipers. I've since removed the front calipers in preference for a set of Wilwoods. Now I need something on the rear again. I may end up building just a cable operated parking brake with small calipers, but we'll see. And also I cut out all the stock handbrake hardware already...so I'm down this path and have to follow it now.
 

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I happen to have both a cable brake operating the rear mini-drums that are stock, plus a hydraulic. If you're relying on your hydraulic lever to act as a park brake you need a line lock for the hydraulic. You'll appreciate this at stage starts and other places where you want to idle the car and get out. But be careful of what has caught others off guard - as the brakes cool the fluid contracts and the brake releases!

I don't know of any highway act regs that say you need an independent system. If that exists you can add it to the host of other illegalities we perpetrate. Twin master circuits have saved me a couple of times.

I remember the legend that left foot braking was innovated when Saab moved the brakes to the front wheels and drivers couldn't use the handbrake.

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 

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>I don't know of any highway act regs that say you need an
>independent system. If that exists you can add it to the
>host of other illegalities we perpetrate. Twin master
>circuits have saved me a couple of times.

Actually, someone here in BC had to retrofit a cable operated system to a hydraulic handbrake only Toyota Corolla rally car when they imported it from Alberta. Apparently the guy doing the mechanical inspection (which is mandatory for all out-of-province vehicles) said it had to be there, so they put in one of those under dash units from a pick-up...go figure.

Bill Westhead
 

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>Vincent - the question that I have is WHY you woudl want a
>hydraulic handbrake in a FWD car in any case ...


Obviously you haven't winter rallied a FWD car in anger too much...trust me a Handbrake of any kind is well worth the "save your bacon" factor when pushing a FWD car to the limit in the winter..
 

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>>Vincent - the question that I have is WHY you would want a
>>hydraulic handbrake in a FWD car in any case ...
>
>
>Obviously you haven't winter rallied a FWD car in anger too
>much...trust me a Handbrake of any kind is well worth the
>"save your bacon" factor when pushing a FWD car to the limit
>in the winter..

Andrew,
My basic point was that just about every rally novice thinks that tey will be relying on the handbrake to make the car rotate ... and while I haven't rallied a FWD car in anger, I have played enough to know that with good LFB use you can rotate a FWD car virtually as tight as if you used a handbrake anyway.
Add to that that he's from Edmonton and I know most of the roads he's likely going to start on (and which roads are winter roads) and I think I am safe to mak e teh comment I did.
 

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>
>I happen to have both a cable brake operating the rear
>mini-drums that are stock, plus a hydraulic. If you're
>relying on your hydraulic lever to act as a park brake you
>need a line lock for the hydraulic.

ACP, I have done a number of handbrake conversions, as long as the ratchet mechanism is in place, the handbrake master alone will work just fine.
The 99 handbrake lever is well sited and the easiest lever I know to mod into a hydraulic and what I have done for snow events or events where I might want to use the handbrake, since having one car amonst all cars I drive backward is no good, is NOT gone to fly-off, but run a band of tape a few inches down the lever then firmly taped down the button and then wound a few more turns around that.
Now it will be 'pull and release'.
Afterwards I can slice the tape and I'm back to ratcheting, and locking handbrake.
My have held overnight.

You'll appreciate this
>at stage starts and other places where you want to idle the
>car and get out. But be careful of what has caught others
>off guard - as the brakes cool the fluid contracts and the
>brake releases!
Hmmmmmmmmm, not too sure that fluid expands and contracts sufficiently, rather that pressure slowly bleeeds back in the master cylinder.
>
>I don't know of any highway act regs that say you need an
>independent system. If that exists you can add it to the
>host of other illegalities we perpetrate. Twin master
>circuits have saved me a couple of times.

Many other countries I know of require 'a completely separate' system.
>
>I remember the legend that left foot braking was innovated
>when Saab moved the brakes to the front wheels and drivers
>couldn't use the handbrake.

Smoking that crack again in those night clubs you hang out with all those media moguls and stars?
The bizarre and pointless and very typical Engineer think idea of placing the parking brakes on the front wheels began with the 1969 model year Saab 99 where is was nearly useless,untill it siezed from rust.
BUT!! Saab wisely continued to use their superior V4 power 96 as their primary rally weapon untill mid 1976, and on the 96 the handbrake remained where God intended, on the back all the way till end of production in Feb.1980.
Your beloved left foot braking was well established and already made famous years before by Finnish drivers Rauno Aaltonen, and Simo M?kinen amongst others. See Video 'Rallymaster'.

And although the 99 sales began in early 1969, nobody bothered to waste any effort rallying one for quite a number of years, Saab themselves not thinking about it with ANY seriousness till the rules allowing a 'variant' cylinderhead, and the beautiful 'B motor 16v' head was the answer and finally the car could have some 'just OK power'.
They were still too heavy, and the gearboxes remained a problem, impossible to replace on event so any gearbox problem was a dnf.
>
>ACP
>Flirting with the laws of physics.





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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>>>Vincent - the question that I have is WHY you would want a
>>>hydraulic handbrake in a FWD car in any case ...
>>
>>
>>Obviously you haven't winter rallied a FWD car in anger too
>>much...trust me a Handbrake of any kind is well worth the
>>"save your bacon" factor when pushing a FWD car to the limit
>>in the winter..
>
>Andrew,
>My basic point was that just about every rally novice thinks
>that tey will be relying on the handbrake to make the car
>rotate ... and while I haven't rallied a FWD car in anger, I
>have played enough to know that with good LFB use you can
>rotate a FWD car virtually as tight as if you used a
>handbrake anyway.
>Add to that that he's from Edmonton and I know most of the
>roads he's likely going to start on (and which roads are
>winter roads) and I think I am safe to mak e teh comment I
>did.
Obviously you haven?t PLAYED witha rally car on snow events hard enough.
Or you would have found that , oddly enough, when you left foot brake, you apply the front brakes as well, and if they are going tpo lock, they will, and then you have little choice between plowing straight ahead (regardless of where the wheels are pointed) or releasing the brakes.
I have done whole sections of Tbird with hydraulic handbrake alone, any application of foot brake resulted in locking the fronts.

If Vincent does not change the rear calipers for some significantly larger, he will have the same problem.
But it is clear he prefers advice from fellows who have bought their cars done and have mainly second and third hand experience modding their Saabs.
Cutting out the easiest handbrake lever to mod and replacing it with a CNC shows that he is just following advice from somebody who can't fab, or bought it that way already and advises other about things they don't know.
Sorta like the driving advise.

By the way.
ACP who is a big advocate of the the indespensibility of LFB neglects to mention that for it to be worthwhile there needs to be an increase in brake power at the rear.
The old Minis and Saabs did this with the exact same part number:
a 3/4" cylinder for the brakes in place of the stock 5/8".
More brake effect, easier to lock the rears on the footbrake system.

Road cars and P crap have limiters in rear circuits, so playing with standard roadcars is just playing.




John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Well, whatever the situation, or the roads I'll run or the fact that I'll be a rookie rally driver, I am going to go with a hydraulic setup. The links below show the pieces I'm considering.

http://www.chassisshop.com/pdf/mcylinderscontrols.pdf
-staging brake, page 7
http://www.chassisshop.com/pdf/brakes.pdf
-parking lock, page 14

But I'm thinking I could probably snag a line-lock mechanism from one of the local shops where its mostly muscle car/dragster stuff.

Then again, I took a look around federal statutes and regs. Seems the Motor Vehicle Safety Act and its regulations were only recently updated. The following definitions show up in the regulation:

"emergency brake" means a mechanism designed to stop a vehicle after a failure of the service brake system; (frein de secours)

"parking brake" means a mechanism designed to prevent the movement of a stationary vehicle; (frein de stationnement)

"service brake" means the primary mechanism designed to stop a vehicle; (frein de service)

Oddly enough, emergency brake is only mentioned the one time, in the definitions section. Could be oversight in the drafting. Weird.

There is also reference to Techical Standards Ddocuments, which basically incorporate, with appropriate modifications by Canadian drafters, foreign (ie. US) technical documents.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/mvstm_tsd/tsd/1050rev2_e.pdf
-page 15

That's a link to one. This TSD and another one on passenger vehicles only specifies that parking brakes are to be operated by "solely mechanical" means. So I may require a cable operated brake. Or find a sympathetic mechanic who will allow the park lock/line lock to pass as a parking brake. Question still remains - will the lack of a cable operated parking brake be an issue for tech at an event?

I still have the stock front calipers with their cable operated parking mechanism, and I think I'll see if I can fit them in the rear. Either that or I believe some Slovo 240 calipers at the rear may work too.

By the way, ACP, I think I saw your Mom at HUB Cigar a while back, reading Grassroots. Oh, and I won't report you to your law society about your car illegalities if you won't report mine! :) (BTW, with any luck, I should be called in July/August).
 

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K... fine... whatever ...
John has spoken ... the truth is known.
The silly photographer that has been a hanger-on for only a week or two in 'Vanlandingham years' has beep appropriately put in his place ...
(for the record I never suggested that LFB was about locking the rears, cause it ain't)

Vincent - when do you think you'll be hitting the stages? If you are comng down to Rocky at the end of the month make sure to say hi!

if you have a chance I HIGHLY reccomend Jorge Dascollas' Rally School in the spring ... even after a couple of events you can probably pick-up a few pointers!
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Keith:

I will be crewing for Aaron Lim again at Rocky - he's in the NX2000. I hope to be out there myself at Big Horn in September, my 'home' event. Been far too long since I competed in any motorsports event - last run in a kart race was in '99 already. Kept going to Bighorn and saying "next year, we'll be out here" but kept getting sidetracked building up my street car.

So this summer is spent on the rally car build up. I'm aiming for most of the wiring to be finished by the end of the long weekend.

I was down at the VUB show in CowTown on the weekend, saw your red 2.5RS. Can't remember what you look like, so I'll look for the same car in service at Rocky! :)
 

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Tall, balding, glasses, beard ... driving a red 2.5RS ;-)

I hear Bighorn is looking at a buncg of new roads ... shoudl be a good fun! Aaron was hauling a$$ at Cochrane !!! he shopudl have a good time at Rocky! (unless of course, I'm wrong about that too :+)

see you in a bit less than a couple of weeks ...
 

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>K... fine... whatever ...
>John has spoken ... the truth is known.
>The silly photographer that has been a hanger-on for only a
>week or two in 'Vanlandingham years' has beep appropriately
>put in his place ...
>(for the record I never suggested that LFB was about locking
>the rears, cause it ain't)
Then I suggest you also look at the vid "Rallymasters", lots of it was shot in Canada, and maybe Aaltonen might know something more than the silly photog.
>

Where do Photographers get the idea that they know so much?
Ther seems to be a rash of it going around......


John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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KM opines...

>and while I haven't rallied a FWD car in anger, I
>have played enough to know that with good LFB use you can
>rotate a FWD car virtually as tight as if you used a
>handbrake anyway.

True properly set up and LFB'd a FWD car will rotate quite well...I refer to the situation where you have _very_ little traction and and are traveling too fast so that any aplication of the brakes causes 4 Wheel lock up...the Handbrake (hydralic or otherwise) allows one to selectively lock the rears and reorient the car in such a fashion that your ass end brushes the snowbank/ditch/tree first and you've got hope of recovery...

The handbrake is a "get your ass out of the bad situation you just put yourself in" emergency device...not a paticularly effective steering device...

On _rare_ ocasions its useful for a planed turn such as a tight hairpin...and your right, most of the roads out west I've seen do not require a handbrake for that situation...

gawd did I just agree with JV...damn...
 

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Ummm ... actually you are agreeing with me.

My point from the beginning was that handbrakes are rarely used and are certainly not used anywhere near as often as a lot of novices think.
 

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I guess I'm agreeing with both of you...

JV says (paraphrase) "A hadbrake is an important tool whislt pushing the limits of FWD vihicle"

KM says (paraphrase) "It doesn't get used much as you might think"

I try and sum it up....

A properly configured handbrake is a MUST for any rally car however it is only a second line of defence for changing the cars orientation and should only be used in extreme conditions such as emergency recovery or _very_ accute hairpin turns.
 
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