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don't cut
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This will probably get a few people riled up, but what the heck, I'm bored and the forum has been a bit slow lately. So here goes:

I recieved a lovely envelope in the mail today with info and an entry form to two rallies in TN coming up in March and May. Although it doesn't specifically say, I'm assuming that these rallies are sanctioned by NASA. I'm pretty sure they aren't sanctioned by the SCCA since I can't find one single reference anywhere. Anyways, I looked at the miliages and entry fees and decided to do a quick comparison.

Rally Tennessee $395, 75.66 miles 5.2 $/mile
Cherokee Trails $475, 96.56 miles 4.9 $/mile
CFR '03 Club $295, 70 miles 4.2 $/mile
100AW/TW '04 $475, 124 miles 3.8 $/mile

Hmmm, I thought NASA was being tauted as a lower cost alternative to the SCCA? I have not yet been to a NASA event, so perhaps the quality is higher? I am, afterall, comparing to a SCCA Club event. I realize the folks at NASA and Rally Promotions have worked incredibly hard at keeping costs down, but so has the SCCA. Have we as a community simply hit a floor in the $/mile of 4-5 bucks?


Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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>Hmmm, I thought NASA was being tauted as a lower cost
>alternative to the SCCA?

All of the NASA rallies include stage notes, which would generally go for $150 at a SCCA ProRally. So, if we imagine that these club rallies sold notes, and you bought them, the new numbers would be:
[pre]
[font FACE="Courier" size=3]
>Rally Tennessee $395, 75.66 miles 5.2 $/mile NASA
>Cherokee Trails $475, 96.56 miles 4.9 $/mile NASA
>CFR '03 Club $445, 70 miles 6.3 $/mile SCCA
>100AW/TW '04 $625, 124 miles 5.0 $/mile SCCA
[/font]
[/pre]

So, that's more of an apples to apples, for what that's worth. The events aren't the same (because of the notes) so comparison is difficult. Perhaps comparing prorally to nasa on a per mile basis?

>Have we as a community simply hit a floor in the $/mile of 4-5 bucks?

I watch my spreadsheets pretty closely. Fees have averaged about 10-13 percent of the overall budget. $50 or $100 up or down wouldn't be the deciding factor on whether I would attend a rally. Usually distance/vacation days needed, surface type, and overall mileage influence my decision more heavily.

Anders
 

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don't cut
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
>All of the NASA rallies include stage notes, which would
>generally go for $150 at a SCCA ProRally. So, if we imagine
>that these club rallies sold notes, and you bought them, the
>new numbers would be:

Actually, the entry form included a note order sheet which listed notes as $125. So I don't think the NASA events include free notes, but since I haven't been to one, I'm not 100% sure. It's still $25 cheaper than a SCCA Pro event, so perhaps a portion of the entry fee is subsidizing notes.

>I watch my spreadsheets pretty closely. Fees have averaged
>about 10-13 percent of the overall budget. $50 or $100 up or
>down wouldn't be the deciding factor on whether I would
>attend a rally. Usually distance/vacation days needed,
>surface type, and overall mileage influence my decision more
>heavily.
>
>Anders

Yup, me too. If NASCAR puts on a rally in the Midwest, I'll run it.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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the 2 NASA events (Gorman, Ramada) I went to I had to pay for notes and order directly from P-Sport.

Also I think if Pete had to make notes for events that are 2 days long and have more stage miles, the Notes cost would be a bit higher
as his cost would go up.

-george
 

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Faster Mabricator
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JeanGeorge Marcote scoring

The Eastern NASA events have also the benefit of JeanGeorge Marcote scoring. Besides being timely, the formats and graphs allow interesting analysis for post event comparaions. Not a cheap benefit considering having to import JeanGeorges from Canada each event but worth each penny regardless.
 

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For the NASA east events I believe that Cherokee Trails is the exception in that you pay extra for notes. The other NASA events in the east have been advertized as including notes. All caveated as to the best of my recollection. Still I am not jumping up and down insulted at the high cost of the NASA east events. Seem reasonable to me. I personally wish Cherokee was a little cheaper.
 

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don't cut
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
>Still I am not jumping up and down insulted at the high cost
>of the NASA east events. Seem reasonable to me. I
>personally wish Cherokee was a little cheaper.

I don't consider the NASA events "high cost", just higher in cost than a clubrally. I thought one of the initial rationalizations for going with NASA for sanction was lower costs, but apparently that hasn't been true.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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Arent' those Cherokee Trails roads super twisty and a bit slower? If so this would mean that your overall time on stage would actually be longer than a race where speeds were high.

Maybe the overall time spent with the beautiful red mist (my precious)bouncing around your brain should be considered as well as the mileage.
 

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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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>Arent' those Cherokee Trails roads super twisty and a bit
>slower? If so this would mean that your overall time on
>stage would actually be longer than a race where speeds were
>high.

Yes. The fastest average speeds on them when they were last run was 45 mph. Contrast that with some of the stages at STPR(73mph) or Maine (68mph).

So if you did a dollar per MINUTE comparison, Cherokee and Rally TN (which uses some of the same roads as the old Cherokee Trail Intl) you would have see costs reduce. Given the twistyness of the roads, it appears you would have a 35 to 40 percent cheaper dollar per minute of racing. (Assuming that initially, the dollars per mile were identical.)

I would enjoy if someone whipped up a spreadsheet that worked out the dollar cost per minute for various rallies, using a mid pack finisher, and the front runner. :)

On stage notes/NASA, the east and west coasts of NASA are doing things a little differently, as is their pervue. AFIAK, *all* events on the east coast include notes. I'm looking at the entry form for Cherokee right now, and there is no "buy notes" option.

But anyway, yeah, around $5 per stage mile is about what it is.

Anders
 

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Dennis,

This is a good question.
All I can tell you is our rational. As the year progresses and more ?Stand Only? ClubRallys are conducted you may be able to come to a different conclusion.

As far as Rally Promotions is concerned, without NASA Rally Sport we would not be able to afford the alternative sanction and insurance rates and keep the fees below $500. One caverate is Rally West Virginia. If you run both days for the total $500 entry fee, you will be getting about 150 stage miles at about $3.33 per mile.

Please note, at Eastern States Rally Championship events Stage Notes are not included in the entry fee. Sand Blast was the exception because of the very low operating cost of that event.

Thanks for the question

John K. Shirley
Rally Promotions, L.L.C.
Organizer and Promoter of the
Eastern States Rally Championship
 

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Faster Mabricator
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What ClubRallies?

>As the year progresses
>and more ?Stand Only? ClubRallys are conducted you may be
>able to come to a different conclusion.

The last stand alone ClubRally in NEDiv was in 2002 and there seem to be none on the upcoming schedule. Thanks to NASA for picking up the slack and providing a place to play.
 

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straight at T
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RE: What ClubRallies?

>The last stand alone ClubRally in NEDiv was in 2002 and

Except, of course, for the one that was in 2003. However unfortunate the circumstances, it was still a stand-alone ClubRally. Also, two were cancelled for reasons outside the organizer's control (change in landowner).

The 2004 NASA schedule seems to have one rally in NEDiv that would likely not have run otherwise (RNY).

Adrian
 

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Old Fart
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Playing the devils advocate here. }> }> If you deliberately go slower on each stage, does you time of enjoyment per dollar go up?

Paul Jaeger KC8YRY
PRIMO Stage Crews
For a Good Time, Call PRIMO!
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Cancelled rallies

>Except, of course, for the one that was in 2003. However
>unfortunate the circumstances, it was still a stand-alone
>ClubRally.

OK Adrian, if I have to be more specific, there were no rallies that ran without being cancelled in NEDiv. The end is still the same. No rallies.
On top of that, no awards for 2003 as of yet although the rulebook says they will awarded and no announcement of a new ClubRally Steward.
 

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straight at T
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>Playing the devils advocate here. }> }> If you deliberately
>go slower on each stage, does you time of enjoyment per
>dollar go up?

I don't know about that, but it does give us more time to appreciate the PRIMO sign at the finish controls :p.
 

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just another old phart
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It's a lot like golf. The worse you are the more strokes you get for your money.

Kent Gardam
 

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RE: Cancelled rallies

Well I think the 4-6 dollar range is what is to be expected on milage breakdowns. Now as for the NASA was going to be chepaer , well perhaps a few people got a little excited over new prospects.
In the end comparing NASA to SCCA misses the big picture. The sport as a whole has new events being put on , this is great for everyone from Organizers to comeptitors to sanctioning bodies. Look at it this way if club level rally grows to the point where our Rallysprint has 60 cars then we can offer an even chepaer fee than the $150 we charge now. We went with SCCA because we are part of the Las Vegas Region of SCCA and we recieve plenty of support from CRS (primarily SCCA events at the time)and SCCA National. So what if NASA didn't bring on huge savings as some predicted , club level Rally is growing.

My 0.02 , Tom Grossmann - SEED 9 Rallysprint
 

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RE: Cancelled rallies

Could it be that the introduction (re-introduction) of alternate sanctioning has made the SCCA pay attention to the clubrallies a little more than before? I'm sure having Sue heading the department(SCCA) hasn't hurt either. CRS now has 10 rally/rally sprint events (for a total of 29 'coefficients') on its calander up from 7 in 2003 and 6 in 2002(with 22/23 'coefficients'). I like the trend and think that CRS is actually approaching the 'enough rallies' point. If the events where spread evenly, we would only have a 2 month 'off season' at the befining of the year, with a rally every month after that. 3 weeks between rallies is not much time if you can only work on your car on the weekends.

I dont have a problem with more rallies, it makes the championship more meaningful if you not only have to save the car to last an entire event (no small task), but also only add as much wear or damage as you can repair in 3 weekends. At this level, most of us have families or social obligations which also must be met on those weekends.
 
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