[robm]

Forgive my ignorance on this, but what makes a PRO event "PRO"?
I know there is a really big Organizers document as to what it takes to put on a rally, but I couldn't find it on the SCCA website (if you have a link, please post it).

Just wondering what it takes to change a Club event to a Pro event - do you need to invite manufacturers? Is it the entry fees? Special permission from someplace? Crew license level? Club events running with Pro events suggests there is only a subtle difference someplace, just wondering if it could be exploited legally to keep events going.

NOTE: Please don't take this to mean I don't think safety is paramount - I do. However, the current course of action does not make sense to me (the "temporary" cancellation of all Club events while Pro/Club events continue??).
I actually think that ClubRally organizers who have recently lost events will go to never before seen extremes to ensure the safety of all involved after this latest incident (it's their money, time, and reputations on the line). They should be allowed to proceed. These are the "go to" people, they should be given the option to improve the process - I'm pretty sure they fully understand the risks. (hence my question)

Rob

 

[Ray]

Nothing is different!
I've been to "Club" events that were more professional than some "Pro" events.

Whiplash RallyeSport

 

[Widget Codriver]

Summary:
[ul]
[li]More stage miles (although two Club events like Dryad's Quest/Shitepoke can match or exceed one Pro event.)
[li]Higher sanction/entry fees
[li]Score national points instead of divisional points
[li]Part of Manufacturer championship
[li]Typically many more spectators, workers, SCCA officials
[li]Overall a bigger National-office presence, e.g., Nat'l steward, National Tech, Rally Director, Media Guy, etc, to support the Manufacturers.
[li]Stage notes instead of route books (some ClubRallies are considering Stage Notes)
[/ul]
The question on everyone's mind is: Are Pro events "safer" than Club events?

[hr]

[p align=right]John Dillon
John @ WidgetRacing.com
www.WidgetRacing.com

 

[Kartwheel]

The difference is the stickers on the cars that say either "Pro" or "Club".

 

[Glenn Wallace]

The SCCA Chairman said: "It was decided that the ProRally events, including any concurrent ClubRallys, could continue because of a higher degree of national-level control and oversight. However, prior to each ProRally event during the period of the suspension, a formal event-specific safety assessment will be conducted by the PRB and additional senior oversight of the event will be in place. "

re the "differences" from Widget CoDriver:

> Higher sanction/entry fees

not by much. I paid $350 for Rim and I think $300 for Doo ****.

> Score national points instead of divisional points

Not for the club rally entrants in pro rallies that are still allowed to run.

> Part of Manufacturer championship

Not for the club rally entrants in pro rallies that are still allowed to run.

> Typically many more spectators, workers, SCCA officials

This is debatable. I saw more spectators *on stage* at Doo **** than Rim, though I suspect this was due to the weather.

> Overall a bigger National-office presence, e.g., Nat'l steward, National Tech, Rally Director, Media Guy, etc, to support the Manufacturers.

I don't see how these guys can make the stages safer?

> Stage notes instead of route books (some ClubRallies are considering Stage Notes)

Also not true, below Seed 6 at Rim had to run the Route Book (which I consider unsafe, they have so little detail compared to the NW routebooks).

Glenn

 

[Gravel Spray]

The difference is that in "PRO", two manufacturer's have MILLIONS invested in their "PROgram", so the "SHOW" must go on.

I agree with Ray.

Pro events are the same roads, same organizers, same workers, just twice as many cars, going twice as fast, with twice as many spectators. Pro events are usually more chaotic.


_________________________________________________
But, I still feel very sorry for all the families involved, very sorry. A terrible thing has happened, and when an organization like the SCCA(or any company with a accident on company property, or time)that experiances a fatality must at least put forth the image that they are:

1. Investigating the accident to find a cause.

2. Outline a stragity to prevent further injuries/fatalities

3. Impliment safety plan

4. Varify effectiveness of safety plan.

This is a minimum that should be expected from the SCCA.



pete:-(

 

[Bee Driver]

How can Dryad/Shitepoke be turned into a "PRO" Rally in the next couple of weeks to keep it on the schedule?

 

[Glenn Wallace]

The entire year's pro events typically scheduled before the beginning of the season.

 

[Widget Codriver]

I think Glenn and I are agreeing that the differences between Club and Pro aren't that much different. Obviously I didn't make this clear in my earlier post. Sorry!

 

[Rich Smith]

Rob,

It's just MONEY. If you pay a LOT they let you in the ProRally club. If you don't have much there used to be something called ClubRally, but oh, that's been suspended. Competance and experience has nothing to do with it.

I am not personally aware of any Rallies organized by SCCA National. All rallies are Regionally organized and PRIVATELY funded.

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"

 

[Steven D Perret]

Which brings up another question. How many national SCCA people have been out and about at NW events like Doo Woops or Dryad/Shitepoke?
(I ask because I really do not know)
Do they really have a sense for what goes on at a NW Club event?
I do not believe that all events are created equal. NW events are put on by an exceptional bunch of very focused people and the events reflect that!!




Steven Perret
Car# 226
Driftin4 Racing
[email protected]

If you want to maim the fastest growing motor-sport in the SCCA, continue to crucify the entry level.

 

[jprowland]

Entry fees alone don't differentiate b/tw Pro and Club...Rally New York (RNY) last year (coeff 3 Club Rally) was $600 to enter.

- Pro events must have over 100 stage miles, Club events must have less than 100.
- A Club event must be observed for one year by the PRB for inclusion in the ProRally series (as was RNY, but I doubt it has what it takes yet, if it even returns).
- The Pro series is limited to 12 events annually (currently there are 8), but I'm sure the rules can be changed if they want more than 12.

Just a few of my observations on Pro vs. Club in addition to those already mentioned by others...

--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
Visit my boring web page: http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland

 

[rallytaff]

Great points made by all! Now we have to make it clear to SCCA that we need to get rid of the distinction between Pro and Club. There is virtually none. Let's simplify things for those that think there is. Let's declare that "Rally" is the sport for all concerned. I'll say it again until my dying day, it's the grass roots that promote and keep this sport going regardless of the opinions of those that say otherwise. Which organizer wants to put on a Pro rally and NO Club rally guys show up? I think NONE. Just when is SCCA going to recognize this and get rid of this distinction, once and for all. Rallying is a BIG family, why are they creating the division between us? As long as this continues, we lowly, yet very humble Club guys, will continue to grow and grow and grow, because we do it for fun and the enjoyment for all. Do we have a discrimination suit here? Just thought I'd ask. Come on all you lawyers out there, give us some input.

 

[ProRallyPix]

>- Pro events must have over 100 stage miles, Club events
>must have less than 100.

Before the suspension, we planned the Dryad with 80 stage miles and the Shitepoke with 65, making them both c3 events. The total milage looks a lot like a two day ProRally.

I think the big difference is the insurance. I heard the explanation at the last NWR organizers meeting, I think the ClubRally insurance is (was) per-car based, and the ProRally insurance is a flat rate.

I'm not familiar with other areas, but in the Northwest Region there is no differrence between ProRally and ClubRally. We have the one organizing team, and the stage roads, routebooks, spectator locations, radio teams, EMTs, marshalls, stage captains, etc. are the same at the Dryad as they are at the Wild West.

The only real difference for organizers is the stress level. The Dryad is fun, the Wild West is work. The same organizing team has to put all the of same pieces together so that the rally works, but at the Wild West we also have to deal with assorted SCCA experts who fly in at the last minute and change things (because they know more than the local organizers but they can't tell us what they know in advance). I think Mr. Campbell calls this oversight. We also have various FIA visitors and official observers (the Wild West is an FIA demonstration event), assorted manufacturers dignataries, and hoards of people the SCCA calls "press" (most of them don't publish in print or on the web, but that's another topic).

This year is really going to be fun, because the SCCA officials have this new suspension stick to beat us with. Read the ProRally paragraph in Mr. Campbell's letter. [http://www.scca.com/news/press03_36.html] We could spend thousands of dollars on the Wild West and have it "suspended" at the last minute because we are out of compliance with some unspecified SCCA "operational protocols" that may be unique to our event. Remember that FIA listing? The FIA rules we're trying to follow and the SCCA "protocols" may well be in conflict, and we won't know until the last minute. Maybe our FIA observers and SCCA oversighters can resolve their differences with duelling swords.

Jim Culp
prorallypix.com

 

[Widget Codriver]

>This year is really going to be fun, because the SCCA
>officials have this new suspension stick to beat us with.
>Read the ProRally paragraph in Mr. Campbell's letter.
>[http://www.scca.com/news/press03_36.html] We could spend
>thousands of dollars on the Wild West and have it
>"suspended" at the last minute because we are out of
>compliance with some unspecified SCCA "operational
>protocols" that may be unique to our event. Remember that
>FIA listing? The FIA rules we're trying to follow and the
>SCCA "protocols" may well be in conflict, and we won't know
>until the last minute. Maybe our FIA observers and SCCA
>oversighters can resolve their differences with duelling
>swords.

At the risk of sounding crazy, why even bother making it a "pro" event? It's in my own best interest to have pro events to compete in, but I'm still amazed and pleased that you guys work so hard for all that. I could be really quizzical and ask why go with an SCCA sanction but I know that the Northwest has a wonderful and strong SCCA base that cares passionately about rally.

I admire all the organizers who make the incredible effort to put on any sort of rally, let alone one labeled "pro." And wading through the FIA pile of regulations is an additional stack of hoops you deal with at Wild West, Cherokee, and Ramada Express.

Again, kudos to you all for making it all happen.

[hr]

[p align=right]John Dillon
John @ WidgetRacing.com
www.WidgetRacing.com

 

[jprowland]

Which organizer wants to put on a Pro rally and
>NO Club rally guys show up? I think NONE.

Actually, STPR and Maine come to mind. Apparently none of the NE organizers want Club guys to show up at their events. And unfortunately, they're not doing too bad, fielding some of the largest entry lists in the series.

--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
Visit my boring web page: http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland

 

[Don Kennedy]

I don't think it's that STPR and Maine don't want club, they just don't need them. They used to run club with the pro but then the pro field got so big that the club guy couldn't even get in the field so they dropped club.

 

[John Vanlandingham]

>Which organizer wants to put on a Pro rally and
>>NO Club rally guys show up? I think NONE.
>
>Actually, STPR and Maine come to mind. Apparently none of
>the NE organizers want Club guys to show up at their events.
>And unfortunately, they're not doing too bad, fielding some
>of the largest entry lists in the series........
filled with guys who have maybe just completed Ski Saw Mill school just a convenient month before or maybe the year before and have done juist a couple of events, MASYBE
I am not scolding the poor sods who have lost an event but rather the to me obviously cynical ploy of somebody deciding to make it BS so called Pro, and filling with what are clearly rank amatuer beginners, who now have the right to buy the V(ery) I(diotic) P(oo) sticker package and, and AND....
Pay a "Pro" entry fee.

Nawwww, what a bästard I am suggesting that could have anything to do with it.

>
>--
>JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
>Visit my boring web page:
>http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/

 

[Steven D Perret]

JV you are around...

I was starting to think that someone had come to your place and chopped off your typing fingers }>

 

[Bruce]

Anyone who would suggest that a Pro event is the same as a Club event has clearly never been an organizer. While there are certainly Club events that approach Pro status in planning and execution (else where would new Pro events come from) there are others that do not. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I don't think anybody would suggest that Mike Halley's Hallett Triples takes the same amount of preparation and planning as, say, Rim of the World. (Sorry to make you a low common denominator, Mike, but there you are.)

Bruce
"Done both kinds"