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Premium Member
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Discussion Starter #1
Hey,

What do you guys thinks about a handicap system (similar to what they use at boat races or other types of competition where mismatched levels of equipment are used) to help level the playing field, and make for more meaningful competition?

Obviously, it would take some thought and experimentation to get the handicap levels right, but for instance if there was a 10 sec/mile handicap for Open 4WD vs. Group 2, then by my calculations Chris Duplessis would have taken the overall win at Olympus over TP by about a minute and a half (97 stage miles * 10 secs/mile / 60 secs/min = just over 16 minutes, so CD's time of 1:38:32 would have been 1:22:22 with handicap vs. TP's 1:23:50). If the handicap for G2 was 9 secs/mile, CD's handicap time would have been about 1:23:59, so TP would still have won, but only by about 8 seconds.

If handicap factors in secs/mile could be worked out for all the various classes e.g. 4 secs/mile for SP etc., then it would be more exciting since someone from any class could potentially win overall. And there would be less incentive to spend a lot of money on an Open Class car, making things more budget friendly. Granted, then people might start spending cubic dollars on a G2 car, but that could be brought back in line by reducing the G2 handicap to 8 sec/mile etc.

The idea is to make things more budget friendly, since a reasonably well prepared car from any class, with a great driver, could potentially win overall.
 

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Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
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2,953 Posts
I was talking to Anders about things and came up with
ideas like:
EZ Up tent, -30 seconds
No trailer, driven to rally = +2 minutes
crazy stuff like that,
so cheapness and sacrifice turned into time
and expense and comfort would add time.

You'd need a judge like at the Lemons races to just
rule on the spot with no published guidelines
and just take your chances.
 

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straight at T
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2,472 Posts
Hey,

What do you guys thinks about a handicap system (similar to what they use at boat races or other types of competition where mismatched levels of equipment are used) to help level the playing field, and make for more meaningful competition?
We don't have mismatched levels of equipment, we have different classes, and cars prepared to different rules. You don't handicap Lasers so they can be competitive with I-14s - they race in their own class (apologies to those who don't talk sailboat).

You seem to be trying to invent a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Why should a P car have a chance to win overall (total fluke excepted)?

Adrian
 

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just another old phart
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2,258 Posts
You seem to be trying to invent a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Why should a P car have a chance to win overall (total fluke excepted)?

Adrian
Well, not saying that I agree with the handicap concept for rallying (although I race my sailboat under a handicap system) but I think the rationale for having a P car have a chance to win overall would be that the driver of the P car (or whatever class) did the best job of getting the most out of his equipment at that event. In other words, that driver drove the best rally, and didn't just necessarily have the most capable car.
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Starting to sound like Autocross (Solo2) where there are endless classes and then a 'PAX' adjustment for overall competition. The effort that goes into maintaining the handicap factors would be huge, I suspect, and the factor would have to account for FAR too many factors to be practical.
2wd is at a far less disadvantage on tarmac, so if you have a tarmac section for a certain length it would change the effective factor. Ice, Snow, Mud, all different impacts ...

A simple handicap would be a huge disservice, a fair handicap would be too difficult to maintain.
 

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straight at T
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2,472 Posts
Well, not saying that I agree with the handicap concept for rallying (although I race my sailboat under a handicap system) but I think the rationale for having a P car have a chance to win overall would be that the driver of the P car (or whatever class) did the best job of getting the most out of his equipment at that event. In other words, that driver drove the best rally, and didn't just necessarily have the most capable car.
The real question would be... How would the results of a handicap rally make any sense at all to a casual spectator or journalist? How would confusing the growth audience help the sport?

Driver P (well known to the spectators) didn't win because driver X, in a visibly slower car and taking a longer time to finish every stage, had a better handicap... explain that in words that a typical spectator would understand.

If you are a good enough driver that you could win on handicap in a slow car, then you should be fast enough to make your mark on the event without a handicap. Frank Sprongl proved that running the Suzuki in the CARS championship, and probably set the handicap bar so high that most drivers would be well off the pace even with a realistic handicap.

Adrian
 

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just another old phart
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I've never paid very much attention to drag racing but they have some sort of handicap system with staggered starts in that, don't they? And apparently drag racing has a continuing spectator base so I guess they are able to understand it.

Again: not supporting the idea, just responding to points made or questions asked.
 

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straight at T
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I've never paid very much attention to drag racing but they have some sort of handicap system with staggered starts in that, don't they? And apparently drag racing has a continuing spectator base so I guess they are able to understand it.
Yes, but that tends to be at the amateur level (bracket racing). The top guys run head-to-head, and in class.

Adrian
 

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<catchy rally phrase>
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1,261 Posts
It would be an interesting experiment for sure.

run an event w/no classes...just a handicap system.


If I were to do it, make it part of a super special...about 1 mile of twists and straights. The time you get in the SS is your '1 mile handicap'.

Lets say pastrana/block/whoever does it the fastest in 60 seconds for the 1 mile course. That's the fastest time...that's 'par'. everyone slower than that, gets a handicap equal to the number of seconds they were slower.

70 seconds = 10 second handicap.

So for the rest of the stages, you know how long each stage is, you automatically get 10 seconds times X miles subtracted off your time.


I can already think of a few flaws with that system, ie people sandbagging so they get a better handicap throughout the rally....but it would still be interesting.
 

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PAX times - and then blood shoots out of my nose...

OMG Autocross PAX times...
I totally forgot about that craziness!

Just like the drag race guys hate the guys that show up in stock 1990 automatic Honda Civics and bracket race. Crowning a Production car the overall winner of the rally because he pedaled just a bit harder then all the G2 cars and wound up 8th is not the spirit of the sport.

Wait - why don't I like this? :p
- Kris
 

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What do you guys thinks about a handicap system (similar to what they use at boat races or other types of competition where mismatched levels of equipment are used) to help level the playing field, and make for more meaningful competition?
I think it is a bad idea. They do this at Target Newfoundland, and I think it's confusing to casual observers and frustrating to the teams who spend a lot of money and effort to bring out the really impressive cars.

Here is the problem: Under this system, tamer cars will usually beat the fire-breathers, because it is easier to drive a tame car at its limit (and thereby maximize points).

I think there are other strategies out there to help people save money that don't come at the cost of the spirit of the sport.
 

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I have a cat.
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In my opinion, brackets have ruined drag racing. Pro level is straight up head to head.

Amateurs use these stupid delay boxes on transmission brakes and just dial their number. There is no sport to it at all.

If you go to an amateur drag race, prepare to be bored. When they run them at the nationals, it's beer and brat gopher time. The stands empty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay_box

OTOH, if you haven't been to a top fuel or funny car (nitromethane) race, you need to go! 300mph in 440 yds is pretty amazing and the associative thump in your chest is truly incredible!
 
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