[Jim Robison]

Here’s the rough idea. All is subject to change, and I would REALLY like to include as many ideas from this forum as I can. I want this to be a bottom-up rather than a top-down organization. PLEASE give me your thought, criticisms, and ideas, so I can include them in the final program. The Championship will be officially unveiled this summer, when I’m done grading final exam papers.

My vision: The Vintage Rally Car Championship (VRCC) will be an “active celebration” of historic rally cars in modern competitive events. The objective is to encourage participation rather than determine the one best team in North America, so there will be lots of classes, lots of winners, and no overall champion.

I choose “vintage” rather than “historic” for the championship name to avoid any confusion with the Historic Class offered by Rally America. VRCC classes are not the same as the Rally America Historic class and I don’t want anyone confused as to “which historic class” we are talking about.

Only “registered” drivers and co-drivers (members) may compete in the Championship, but registration will be simple and free for 2010. A nominal ($10, $20?) annual registration fee will be charged in future years. Registered 2010 members will vote on the 2011 fee and any changes to the 2010 rules. Remember, this will be a bottom-up organization.

The VRCC will be an “overlay” series, with no physical presence at rallies and minimal expenses. All revenue will go toward awards, stickers, and a no-frills web site. A year-end financial report will be posted on the VRCC web site. Want an Internet forum? You’re looking at it right now.

VRCC classes (based on FIA historic classes as found in FIA Sporting Code, Appendix K, Section 3) are A: before 1905, B: 1905 to 1919, C: 1919 to 1931, D: 1931 to 1947, E: 1947 to 1962, F: 1962 to 1966, G1: 1966 to 1970, G2: 1970 to 1972, H1: 1972 to 1976, H2: 1976 to 1977, I: 1977 to 1982, and J: 1982 to 1991. In addition to fitting into one of these age categories, VRCC cars must compete in one of the following sanctioning body classes: Rally America, Production, Production GT, Super Production, Rally Truck and, of course, Historic; NASA Rally Sport, Stock, Stock GT, Super Stock, and SUV; and CARS, Production Sport and Production GT.

The VRCC will be an annual championship for registered drivers and co-drivers. Winners will be determined by most points earned. Regional rallies will be worth 3 points for starting, plus 1 point for each VRCC car in your class you beat. For example, if three cars in VRCC class J started the rally, the highest scoring of the three would get 5 points (3 for starting plus 2 for beating 2 other VRCC cars), the next would get 4 points (3+1) and the final car would get 3 points. National events would be worth twice the points of a regional, so the above cars would get 10, 8 and 6 points if the event was a national. Driver and co-drivers will each earn points and they need not stayed paired together throughout the season. Three regions, east, central, and west, will include both the United States and Canada. Driver and co-driver will compete for both regional and North American recognition, with the requirement that a contestant must earn points in all three regions to be in contention for the North America title.

Rally organizers and sanctioning bodies will have no VRCC responsibilities. They need not even be aware of the Championship. All they need to do is continue to ensure that cars are entered in their correct class based on the rules of the sanctioning body and post final results after the rally.

What do you think?

 

[modernbeat]

I think that sticking to the Production categories is a bad idea. You'll lose at least half of the Historic cars that now compete.

When we built the SAAB, our "historic theme" was to build a 1963 car as if it were a retired factory car that's been in privateer hands for four years. He had a self imposed cutoff year of 1970 for technology and appearance. But some of the repairs, updates and modifications are beyond the Production rules.

 

[Adrian Wintle]

See my comment in the other thread re the compatibility of Production/Stock and historic rally cars/modifications.

I also think the points system is going to be a nightmare to administer, and unfairly disadvantages competitors who are based in areas where there are few other Vintage competitors. It also means that the competitor who can afford to go to the most events could win the championship by just showing up to more events than anyone else, whithout having to finish any of them. It might be a better idea to look at the MaxAttack model, and specify some particular events in each region as poins events, and to awward a higher percentage of points for finishing/winning.

If you want to keep the all events score model, how about 1 point for starting, 1 point for finishing, and 1 point per competitor beaten. This way there would be an incentive to finish, and there would be a higher relative gain for doing well.

Adrian

 

[Rallycat66]

Random thoughts...

Why stick to the FIA classes? Honestly, you will never see a pre-war vehicle entering into a modern stage rally - simply getting them to be "legal" to compete would completely destroy the value of the car. And get rid of the period appropriate requirements of the FIA rules. Any "reasonable" changes to the vehicle should be allowed - i.e. a complete Subaru STi drivetrain stuffed into a 1970's vehicle is not reasonable, but a 1990's transmission in a 1980's car or making modifications to the suspension to make it more reliable should be allowed.

Make it "in the spirit of historic rallying" as far as the modifications allowed. If someone shows up and starts running something that other competitors feel is not in the spirit of the VRCC, then have the group discuss and vote on the legality of the car.

I'd also be concerned that there will be few competitors in each "class".

How about something simpler? Say Pre-1970, 1970 to 1980, and 1981 to 1991 (or a rolling 20 years old)?

I agree with Adrian that you should reward finishing events more heavily. Setting my goal as finishing is worth twice as much as just starting and beating someone else in the VRCC class is important, but shouldn't penalize other competitors who didn't get someone to run against at their events...

How about 5 points for taking the start, 10 points for finishing the event, 2 points for each competitor in your class you beat?

I think all sanctioned events should count and you should count the regional events - not the nationals presuming that there are always regional support events going on in conjunction with the nationals. If a competitor entered only the "national" (say STPR), then they would essentially get scored with "double" points because you would count it as if they had entered the dual regionals (Sherwood Forest and Finger Lakes).

That said, I think there may be an issue with the number of events in a given area - for instance the North East RA Championship has a LOT of events in a relatively close geographic area because they have included hillclimbs as part of the regional championship this year. Maybe a multiplier based on the co-efficients of the event or a restriction that the event must be a minimum of a co-efficient 2 event (or X # of stage miles)?

Tim

 

[Jim Robison]

Great comments so far. Keep it up. Let's let this run a few days and then I'll try to include as much as I can in a revised draft. Thanks all.

 

[Glenn Wallace]

VRCC classes (based on FIA historic classes as found in FIA Sporting Code, Appendix K, Section 3) are A: before 1905, B: 1905 to 1919, C: 1919 to 1931, D: 1931 to 1947, E: 1947 to 1962, F: 1962 to 1966, G1: 1966 to 1970, G2: 1970 to 1972, H1: 1972 to 1976, H2: 1976 to 1977, I: 1977 to 1982, and J: 1982 to 1991.

We don't have enough entrants to sub-divide.... this seems like a non starter.
Including 1982 to 1991 includes a bunch of newer cars....

In addition to fitting into one of these age categories, VRCC cars must compete in one of the following sanctioning body classes: Rally America, Production, Production GT, Super Production, Rally Truck and, of course, Historic; NASA Rally Sport, Stock, Stock GT, Super Stock, and SUV; and CARS, Production Sport and Production GT.

Why limit the classes? Historic in RA is effectively "open" ---- e.g. I have twin DCOEs and a hot cam, quaiffe gear set and a LSD.

How would you decide which cars are eligible?

The VRCC will be an annual championship for registered drivers and co-drivers. Winners will be determined by most points earned. Regional rallies will be worth 3 points for starting, plus 1 point for each VRCC car in your class you beat. For example, if three cars

Why not score relative to fastest 2WD (VRCC or not), like a speed factor?
Couldn't someone "buy the championship" by entering more events? Why not nominate 2-4 national (CARS, RA, NASA) events and say these will be the events that count, and it will cause entrants to target those events, getting more historic cars together in one place.

There are some basic things that should be addressed by any proposal:

- how are historic cars identified on stage and in the results? I like Max Attack, but it has a different goal (competition between drivers). I've never said "ooh look, a Max Attack car". Overlay series just don't run that way.
- how does it promote the spirit of historic competition and encourage new entrants to build cars?
- what vehicles (in terms of age, drivetrain configuration and prep level) are the target?
- how do we get more historic vehicles together at a given event to demonstrate the level of participation and interest?

 

[johnhuebbe]

If anything have 3 events (West, Central, East) as nominated events to try and get the most cars to enter those. Count best 2 out of 3 events. I MIGHT be able to get to one of the coasts, but not both during a single year. Realistically I'm almost never going to travel to the coasts for rallies. It would blow my budget in it's current form. (but that's just me)

Trying to assign points to all events I enter, where almost all events would only have 1 historic car, mine, makes no sense.

 

[Greasecar]

My car is a '79 VW with '98 diesel engine and transmission, would I qualify?

I suppose the real question is: What makes a car historic/ vintage? Is it period correct, production year of shell or drivetrain?

I would agree that many of the vintage cars I've seen in current competition have been modernized to some degree but there are still period spec cars that are running competitive times ( I can think of a few Mazdas, Datsuns and VWs running at the top of G2 and G5.

 

[johnhuebbe]

I think just because you have an old shell doesn't automatically make your car historic. If you started with an old shell and said "my goal is to build a car that would have competed during '77~'81" and used the common mods, parts, engine then that would be fine by me.

For your specific situation, did a '79 VW use a diesel engine & transmission? If yes and the '98 engine & transmission are similar then I'd say it would be ok.

For instance with my bug, if I'd have a engine with an ECU, fuel injection, custom aftermarket transmission case & 5 or 6 speeds, etc... then I doubt I'm in the spirit of historic for what would be run in the early 70' for which my car is modeled after.

 

[Anders Green]

The Vintage Rally Car Championship (VRCC) will be an “active celebration” of historic rally cars in modern competitive events. The objective is to encourage participation

If the goal is to encourage participation (which I think is a fine goal) then every single person who has commented on the points structure so far is missing the point. You trapping yourselves in a mindset of "fair" and "winning" and "competition". Open your minds, folks. Getting a bunch of cool old rally cars out on stage is a great thing to do. With the goal of encouraging participation, OF COURSE someone can "buy" the "championship"! That's the whole point, they participated more.

Without people to race against, like, at the same race, there's no "fair". Since the historic ecosystem does not currently support that in very many places at all, why force it? Try something else, like participation. You don't have to fix everything at once. Do this, wait five years as participation builds, _then_ try for some racing between the cars as you shift the focus of the championship.

Good luck, and I'll be happy to add this class to any results for rallies I'm scoring once there are competitors. It's easy enough.

Cheers,
Anders

 

[Glenn Wallace]

Try something else, like participation. You don't have to fix everything at once. Do this, wait five years as participation builds, _then_ try for some racing between the cars as you shift the focus of the championship.

I agree with you, there aren't enough cars entered to worry about the points or the classes or the structure or the eligibility, the real issue is: not enough entrants.

I really think the next thing we change ought to focus the current entrants on one or two events and get several of the cars in one place.

Speaking of that, any other historic cars entering Oregon Trail? Garth and I will be there.

Good luck, and I'll be happy to add this class to any results for rallies I'm scoring once there are competitors. It's easy enough.

Thanks!

 

[CrashCorrigan]

As many of you know, I've just shipped in a Honda-powered Mk1 Escort in which to enter Targa Newfoundland. As far as I see it, forget for a moment what make of motor is in the vehicle, I have 235hp on tap in an otherwise standard Escort setup (13 inch wheels, Bilstein suspension, Atlas Axle, Ford/Wilwood brakes). Now it's possible to extract that kind of power from a "period correct" lump, but the build costs would rise considerably (A motor like that will make over $30k today as opposed to say $2k for a good used Honda).

Because of this, it's quite common in Europe for guys to swap out motors in classic cars. In fact, you'll find Escorts/Chevettes/Fiestas running GM Redtops, Cossie lumps, Toyota units, V8's, the list goes on and on. The reason for this is simple...It keeps the costs affordable for the average man in the street.

Now think about it...Does my Honda lump give me any advantage over the rich guy with the expensive 245hp BDA or, the 270hp BDG? Oh yes, I won't cry and have to sell my house if I blow the thing up, and parts are readily available, but that's the only real differences.

Someone mentioned the lack of classic competitors today, could that have something to do with the fact that to run a known period rally car with any kind of competitive power nowadays, you need access to Ken Block's wallet? (No offense Ken, good on you for helping to promote the classics, and that Mk2 of yours is an awesome machine!)

As far as competitive classes go, if a guy really wants to be "competitive", then I suggest that they go out and buy a modern Subaru or Mitsubishi (Or Ford, yes Ken?). Most classic car guys simply want to have fun driving a piece of history. In fact, the truly collectible classic rally cars are making ridicules money nowadays (A Mk1 Zakspeed Escort recently sold for over 1/4 Million dollars in Europe and fairly basic ones often fetch in excess of $100k). How many of you would, or, could afford to rally a vehicle costing that much?

Which of course brings us to "what is a classic"? Well as I see it, in classic rallying there are basically two divisions...Any car which is old enough to qualify, and perhaps holds some sort of personal attachment to its owner, and then there are the ones which the fans want to see in action...The Audi Quattros, the Escorts, the Lancias, Cosworth Sierras, Mini Coopers, cars from the glory years of rallying etc. Now most of the later are out of reach for a lot of guys, but, if we allow a few "modifications" for afford-ability reasons, we just might see a few more appear on the scene.

If you really think about it, it's not the make of motor which matters, it's the overall hp combined with the available suspension/brakes etc. In fact, in Targa, although I'll be competing in Open Class, I could be running a 270hp BDG with much more expensive brakes than I do now, and yet still be eligible for the lower times of the classic division.

Speaking of Targa, this event is the perfect example of what classic rallying could be. Yes, there are a few with deep pockets who try to buy themselves around the rule book, but most simply want to have fun competing in their car of choice. How many do you think really care about being "Competitive"? It's not about prize money or trophies, it's about taking part and making it through to the end. That's why you'll see everything from Audi Quattros, to modern production vehicles, to Austin Healys competing. It's a huge draw for the fans and does more to promote Motor-sports than any other rally event in North America.

Personally, I'd love to head south of the border and run a few events. I'm not worried in the slightest about being "competitive", and I don't give a dam about awards. Just point me to an event which is affordable and fun. Yes, my old Escort might sound slightly different, but it still looks like a 70's Escort, and it still likes to go sideways

I say, "let's use a bit of common sense with the rule book and get a few more of the oldies out there" (Both cars and their owners

 

[Jim Robison]

Revised VRCC rules

Thanks to all of you for the great suggestions. Based on your input, below are some suggested revisions for your further review, comments, bashing and brainstorming.

Classes: Remember that there will be no VRCC staff at the events. We can rely on the organizers to follow the rules of the sanctioning bodies, but we can’t ask them to do anything special for us. Therefore vehicle preparation and modification rules, other than model year, must fall within the sanctioning body class structures. Special thanks to Glenn for arguing to expand the classes to get more entrants. Here’s a revised VRCC class plan.

Production 60 (P6): Production, stock or historic with model years prior to 1970
Modified 60 (M6): Modified, open, G2, G5, etc. with model years prior to 1970
Production 70 (P7): Production, stock or historic with model years 1970 thru 1979
Modified 70 (M7): Modified, open, G2, G5, etc. with model years 1970 thru 1979
Production 80 (P8): Production, stock or historic with model years 1980 thru 1989
Modified 80 (M8): Modified, open, G2, G5, etc. with model years 1980 thru 1989​

The “youngest age” has been dropped from 1991, per current FIA, to 1989, which is closer to the current Rally America age of 1985. VRCC class ages would not change like R-A, but we could add “90” classes in five or ten years if we wanted.

Points: One for starting a rally, one for finishing, and one for each VRCC class car beaten. Call this the 1-1-1 formula. Other formulas might be 2-1-3 or 5-2-10 (thanks Tim), which would favor starting and finishing even if you are the only car in your class.

North American champions would require at least one finish in each region. National events would be worth double points. Hillclimbs and rally crosses would not count. There would be no limit on the number of events a contestant could enter. Should there be a coefficient multiplier as Tim suggests? I don’t know.

VRCC Identification: VRCC stickers would be optional. Our cars should identify themselves by their age and condition. I would like people to say “Look at that cool old rally car” (thanks Anders) rather than “Look at that VRCC car.”

 

[markhuebbe]

Now think about it...Does my Honda lump give me any advantage over the rich guy with the expensive 245hp BDA or, the 270hp BDG? Oh yes, I won't cry and have to sell my house if I blow the thing up, and parts are readily available, but that's the only real differences.

Maybe or maybe not, but it's still not historic in my view.

 

[Glenn Wallace]

Thanks for the changes!

Production 60 (P6): Production, stock or historic with model years prior to 1970
Modified 60 (M6): Modified, open, G2, G5, etc. with model years prior to 1970
Production 70 (P7): Production, stock or historic with model years 1970 thru 1979
Modified 70 (M7): Modified, open, G2, G5, etc. with model years 1970 thru 1979
Production 80 (P8): Production, stock or historic with model years 1980 thru 1989
Modified 80 (M8): Modified, open, G2, G5, etc. with model years 1980 thru 1989​

I don't think we have enough vehicles/entrants to support a class structure that has product/modified and three age ranges..... what problem is this structure solving?
We'll wind up with one champion in each class who beat out..... no one else.

I don't know of a single historic car that would qualify as "production"....

Points: One for starting a rally, one for finishing, and one for each VRCC class car beaten. Call this the 1-1-1 formula. Other formulas might be 2-1-3 or 5-2-10 (thanks Tim), which would favor starting and finishing even if you are the only car in your class.

I'd like points for beating G2/G5 cars.

 

[rallymeister]

KISS keep it simple stupid, thats my model. I am entered in Pikes Peak this year in a 240 Z I have been building for a few years. My entry was accepted by the Rocky Mountain Vintage Racing association because I couldnt find a class that I felt was worthy of the 1970s works Z cars that I built this to replicate. RMVR said this after looking at my pictures and recognizing the short and rare history of the car we will take you. They have 2 classes Vintage and Vintage modified thats all. If you truly have a vintage rally car you dont give a rats *** if you win points or not, if you do then you are in it for the wrong reason. We just want a place to sport them in some form of competition with others who have the same passion for vintage racing. Just my 2 cents worth.

Rallymeister/ Brian Scott

 

[Kim 100AW]

I've nudged the 100AW committee for a couple of years to run a Vintage or Historic "exhibition class"...don't care if they race....charge what it takes to cover sanction and insurance and let them go out and have fun as a "warm up act". Send another "0" and then Pastrana (or whoever). The point is to get the cars on the road in front of crowds having fun and looking sexy. Will they break? Yup. Will they slide off? Yup. And for this purpose I don't really care what's under the hood. People like the Huebbes build cars to historic specs because it's what they LOVE to do....but there are 510s running around with rear discs and 2400cc engines too. As far as I'm concerned if it looks like a 1972 Dodge Colt, then that's what it is. Until we start paying out money or stroking egos what possible difference does it make?

After a couple of years of this, maybe some class distinction will start to emerge. Until then, let's run old cars that are safe, sanctioned and insured.

My $.03.....after this long I'm entitled to a little inflation.

 

[gphcomp]

Here, here to those of you who just want to play. In the Z, we've had see-saw battles with everything from 510's to Evo 5's, and enjoyed them all. We compare times with everyone near us, and friends that may be far ahead or behind. Seat time and fun for the $ is what we're shooting for. Is my car 'legal' for Historic? I think so, but others might not. Run what ya brung, I say, if it looks like a duck, call it one!
By the way Brian, I'd love to see the specs on your build...and put 'em up against ours on the stages!
Greg

 

[modernbeat]

There's no '30s Production class. Where do I compete with my '20 Model A Ford?

 

[BFast]

I've nudged the 100AW committee for a couple of years to run a Vintage or Historic "exhibition class"...don't care if they race....charge what it takes to cover sanction and insurance and let them go out and have fun as a "warm up act". Send another "0" and then Pastrana (or whoever). The point is to get the cars on the road in front of crowds having fun and looking sexy. Will they break? Yup. Will they slide off? Yup. And for this purpose I don't really care what's under the hood. People like the Huebbes build cars to historic specs because it's what they LOVE to do....but there are 510s running around with rear discs and 2400cc engines too. As far as I'm concerned if it looks like a 1972 Dodge Colt, then that's what it is. Until we start paying out money or stroking egos what possible difference does it make?

After a couple of years of this, maybe some class distinction will start to emerge. Until then, let's run old cars that are safe, sanctioned and insured.

My $.03.....after this long I'm entitled to a little inflation.

+ $.01
Who in the world would do that to a 510? (All bits are Datsun/Nissan) Probably a little over powered but if you want your garden tilled we can do it.
We will continue in G2 untill it breaks, then reconsider on the next build. To please all and confuse some, we would be willing to put G2 on the drivers side and H on the co-drivers side, since I & the shell are of Historic age. Bradley would get G2 pts and I would get H pts, because I don't care.
Rallye for Fun!
Brad Fast
#727 Datsun 510