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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Who is running what next year? I have choosen to run the USRC in an open class STI and being that there were alot of GrN guys last year just wondering who is going to run what in what.Also to maybe get some talk going about the 2 series. I hope we will see more open cars this year as I think the 2 classes are getting too close in performance and cost. What do you think? Also I think the 30.7 mil restrictor needed to run in Rally America with a 2.5 is a joke.


Rallymeister #96
 

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>
> Who is running what next year? I have choosen to run the
>USRC in an open class STI and being that there were alot of
>GrN guys last year just wondering who is going to run what in
>what.

Nice to see you running more events.

Also to maybe get some talk going about the 2 series. I
>hope we will see more open cars this year as I think the 2
>classes are getting too close in performance and cost.

I think the close performance of GN and Open is good. We NEED the top 5 to 10 cars to be closer, and this can only help. But the drivers talent is still the biggest factor.

With both national series RUSHING(i presume to out do each other) to make their schdules bigger, I fear the fields will be smaller at each event, and each event will have less competition making rally even more boring on TV.... This is the wrong way to go in my personal opinion, we need fewer events, and better quality ones w/recce, and real promotion on the national level. More events? we need more club events.


What do
>you think?

flame on




Also I think the 30.7 mil restrictor needed to run
>in Rally America with a 2.5 is a joke.
>
>
> Rallymeister #96


I'm hardly qualified in engine calibration, but in my limited experiance, a 2.5L X 30.7mm is a waste of time, the 2.0 is already dialed, and available. Why mess with a bastard engine, and all the development work?



Peter:7
 

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>With both national series RUSHING(i presume to out do each
>other) to make their schdules bigger, I fear the fields will
>be smaller at each event, and each event will have less
>competition making rally even more boring on TV.... This is
>the wrong way to go in my personal opinion, we need fewer
>events, and better quality ones w/recce, and real promotion on
>the national level. More events? we need more club events.

Quoted for complete agreement. Any US rally championship should have an absolute maximum of six events. Look at any other country, particularly large ones, and most of them have a six (or less) event series. Usually the only ones that don't are tiny compared to the US.
 

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don't cut
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>I think the close performance of GN and Open is good. We NEED
>the top 5 to 10 cars to be closer, and this can only help. But
>the drivers talent is still the biggest factor.

Yup, you basically have GrN, and then GrN for guys who don't wanna screw around with homologation.

>
>With both national series RUSHING(i presume to out do each
>other) to make their schdules bigger, I fear the fields will
>be smaller at each event, and each event will have less
>competition making rally even more boring on TV.... This is
>the wrong way to go in my personal opinion, we need fewer
>events, and better quality ones w/recce, and real promotion on
>the national level. More events? we need more club events.
>

Right on brother Pete! Except you forgot the part about the sponsors staying away until the whole thing either sorts itself or tanks.


>I'm hardly qualified in engine calibration, but in my limited
>experiance, a 2.5L X 30.7mm is a waste of time, the 2.0 is
>already dialed, and available. Why mess with a bastard
>engine, and all the development work?

Cuz it comes with the car. Blame Subaru on this one. I just don't understand why they goof around with an oddball engine for only one market. Same with putting the 2.5 in the new WRX. People will buy the car regardless of which engine it has.

Now Rallymeister, as to who is going to run what, search the forum archives for a poll I did a while back. You'll see that the majority of guys are gonna run whatever is closest, followed by whatever is cheapest, followed by whatever has the best TV.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 
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< I am hrdly qualified in engine calibration, but in my limited
< experiance, a 2.5L X 30.7mm is a waste of time, the 2.0 is already
< dialed, and available. Why mess with a bastard engine, and all the
< development work..

Very true, plus strangling the 2.5 liter motor with the 30.7 mm
restrictor will make the 2.5 liter motor a real dog. Even the 32 mm
restrictor does the same as it was proven throughout this season in
comparison to 2.0 liter motors. There is a limit on how much you
can strangle the intake and still keep the motor in the useful range
of power and torque.

Ivan Orisek
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Dennis I didnt see your poll but most of us who play in the forest do it on our owne dime so Im not sure that TV has anything to do with it. I think when you look at both schedules there is no doubt the USRC will be cheaper for teams to run more events than RA. Not to mention the line up of events is pretty dam good. I have run all that RA has to offer and this will be a nice change. I only mentioned the restrictor size because USRC allows a 34mil for a 2.5 and was wondering why they chose to allow it not RA. Also does anyone know if the Subaru truck and Sube money will be in RA series or USRC?

Rallymeister #96
 

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>>With both national series RUSHING(i presume to out do each
>>other) to make their schdules bigger, I fear the fields will
>>be smaller at each event, and each event will have less
>>competition making rally even more boring on TV.... This is
>>the wrong way to go in my personal opinion, we need fewer
>>events, and better quality ones w/recce, and real promotion
>on
>>the national level. More events? we need more club events.
>
>Quoted for complete agreement. Any US rally championship
>should have an absolute maximum of six events. Look at any
>other country, particularly large ones, and most of them have
>a six (or less) event series. Usually the only ones that don't
>are tiny compared to the US.

Adding one event is hardly "RUSHING" to make the schedule bigger.

They are ALL tiny compared to the US (except for Canada). Of course the British/Irish championships require multiple overseas crossings, so even six rallies are a hardship). The PRO Rally series once contained 14 events (count your best X). This would be the ideal situation, as it would allow competitors to contend for the Championship with minimum travel (and minimum budget). I believe that any national series must count enough events to be meaningful. I'm personnaly glad to see NASA expand its series, as a 4 event "Championship" is no championship at all, IMO.
 

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>
> I think when you look at both
>schedules there is no doubt the USRC will be cheaper for teams
>to run more events than RA. >
> Rallymeister #96

Eagerly awaiting your spreadsheet beeakdown on that one.
 

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don't cut
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>
> Dennis I didnt see your poll but most of us who play in
>the forest do it on our owne dime so Im not sure that TV has
>anything to do with it.

Well, according to the poll it does. TV was a distant third to proximity and cost. I don't make the results, I just report them.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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>All mileage R.T. from Seattle.
>
>
>Rally America
>
>9 events, 32,929 miles. Average event tow 3658miles
>______________________________
>
>USRC
>
>8 events, 30800 miles. Average event tow 3850miles

I don't plan on running either national series but, here are the numbers from the Washington DC area:

Average Round Trip:
NASA=3045 miles and 54 hours of towing
RA=2824 miles and 52 hours of towing

Not a huge difference considering.

Now, the NASA ESRC from here averages about
1035 miles and 21 hours of towing round trip.

I am working on a spreadsheet to figure out if the low Canadian entry fees are worth the extra towing...
 

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Of
>course the British/Irish championships require multiple
>overseas crossings, so even six rallies are a hardship).

I would rather sit in a nice comfy seat in a bar or restraunt looking out at the water view as it zips by at 30 Knots then drive extra distance. I found my crossings between Ireland and the UK to be very nice and fun trips, hardly a hard ship compaired to towing 1000's of miles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Heres the deal you guys are adding up the miles as if you will tow home after each event. The USRC schedule has only a few weeks in between each event on which ever side of the country you are. all you have to do is find a place to keep your rig and car for a few weeks and fly home.If you run 2 events across country and 4 in your back yard you only have to do this once.6 out of 8 events makes a pretty good run at a championship. Explain to me how you can do that with RA?

Rallymeister
 

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Faster Mabricator
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>I am working on a spreadsheet to figure out if the low
>Canadian entry fees are worth the extra towing...

Don't know if its been confirmed for next season or not, but the past several seasons in Canada have offered free rail service coast to coast for rallycars and most-sized servicevans.

Why the US sanctioning bodies haven't arranged such an agreement with a freight/rail company, I don't know.
 
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<Don't know if its been confirmed for next season or not, but the
<past several seasons in Canada have offered free rail service coast
<to coast for rallycars and most-sized servicevans.

<Why the US sanctioning bodies haven't arranged such an agreement
<with a freight/rail company, I don't know.

<Dave Shindle

We have looked into the rail transport: The transit time, which was
in weeks one way and over one month for the round trip, was totally
unacceptable.

We are working on a different plan that would transport the cars
from coast to coast in a matter of days. It would not be free but
it would significantly cut the cost in comparison to going
individually on your own.

Ivan Orisek
USRC
 

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SURF!!! I'll cover you myself!
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>
> Heres the deal you guys are adding up the miles as if you
>will tow home after each event. The USRC schedule has only a
>few weeks in between each event on which ever side of the
>country you are. all you have to do is find a place to keep
>your rig and car for a few weeks and fly home.If you run 2
>events across country and 4 in your back yard you only have to
>do this once.6 out of 8 events makes a pretty good run at a
>championship. Explain to me how you can do that with RA?
>
> Rallymeister
>
>

Same deal with RA. You could run STPR, Maine, Ojibwe, and even COG without return trips to the west coast...if you have no reason to return home. This would kill a large amount of miles.

I always budget RT to make worst case senario visable, you never know, crash damage etc.

Between flights and hotels for the mechanics during reprep it's almost a wash between coming home and leaving the rig.


pete
 

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Joe, I gathered up some data for comparison. Here are the 10 largest countries in the World, their size comparison to the US (from CIA World fact book) and the number of events in their rally championship. Number of events are from whatever the most recent source I could find on the internet.

1. Russia - "approximately 1.8 times the size of the US" - 5 events
2. Canada - "somewhat larger than the US" - 6 events
3. United States - Two championships - 8 and 9 events
4. China - "slightly smaller than the US" - 5 events
5. Brazil - "slightly smaller than the US" - 8 events
6. Australia - "slightly smaller than the US contiguous 48 states" - 6 events
7. India - "slightly more than one-third the size of the US" - 9 events
8. Argentina - "slightly less than three-tenths the size of the US" - 9 events
9. Kazakhstan - Unable to determine existence of rally championship
10. Sudan - Unable to determine existence of rally championship

So you can see that in the same size category as the US, or larger, only one country has a rally championship with more than 6 events. I believe that the Brazilian rally championship is mainly for very rich people. Is the idea for the US rally championship(s) to be only for very rich people as well?
 

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straight at T
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>Joe, I gathered up some data for comparison. Here are the 10
>largest countries in the World, their size comparison to the
>US (from CIA World fact book) and the number of events in
>their rally championship.

Not particularly valid, since population, income, and culture would probably have more effect than more than land area.

>Number of events are from whatever
>the most recent source I could find on the internet.
>
>1. Russia - "approximately 1.8 times the size of the US" - 5
>events

However, compare the more densely populated area (which is probably where the rallies are concentrated) and the size is probably a lot closer, while the percentage of the population with discretionary money (to be able to engage in expensive hobbies) is much lower. Population about 60% of the USA.

>2. Canada - "somewhat larger than the US" - 6 events

Has been 8 in the recent past. Much smaller population (approx 10% of the USA), thus much smaller potential competitor base. Also, population (and events) are localized within a fairly small percentage of the land area. You could say that if Canada has 6 events, then the US shold have 60...

>3. United States - Two championships - 8 and 9 events
>4. China - "slightly smaller than the US" - 5 events

Just starting to embrace the culture of the car...

>5. Brazil - "slightly smaller than the US" - 8 events
>6. Australia - "slightly smaller than the US contiguous 48
>states" - 6 events
>7. India - "slightly more than one-third the size of the US" -
>9 events
>8. Argentina - "slightly less than three-tenths the size of
>the US" - 9 events

How many National Championships are there in the UK? (which is about the size of NY and PA put together, and has a fifth of the population of the USA).

Adrian
 

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>Not particularly valid, since population, income, and culture
>would probably have more effect than more than land area.

Adrian, population is not the most valid either. I think number of licensed competitors and rally fans would be more applicable. And sure, income and culture are important factors too, but culture at least is probably on the side of these other countries. Still, I think the US championships are stretched thin. Also take into consideration the amount of vacation most other countries get.

I think Canada and Australia in particular are good points of comparison because of similar sizes to the US, and somewhat similar standard of living.

>Has been 8 in the recent past. Much smaller population (approx
>10% of the USA), thus much smaller potential competitor base.
>Also, population (and events) are localized within a fairly
>small percentage of the land area. You could say that if
>Canada has 6 events, then the US shold have 60...

Again, how many licensed competitors vs. US? How many rally fans? I would guess both are more than in the US.

>How many National Championships are there in the UK? (which is
>about the size of NY and PA put together, and has a fifth of
>the population of the USA).

But that's what I'm saying. If you have an area "slightly smaller than Oregon" (that's the size of the UK), wealth, and you have the rally fan and competitor base, you can have 15 championships with 679 rallies a year. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
>>
>> I think when you look at both
>>schedules there is no doubt the USRC will be cheaper for
>teams
>>to run more events than RA. >
>> Rallymeister #96
>
>Eagerly awaiting your spreadsheet beeakdown on that one.


Look for sake of argument the USRC works best for me. All I was trying to find out is how many people have made a commitment to run for a championship in 2006 which I though was a pretty legitimate question, and as usual I ended up with more opinions and no awnsers. I guess I should have left the restrictor out. So are any of you responders doing the series or not. If so then maybe we can get the real facts of why you chose one series over the other.

Rallymeister #96
 
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