Uh- oh , STi = 2.5
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Anyone care to translate?
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>Anyone care to translate?
visst, ingen problem grab. om jag är inte mistagen, jag tror han sa nåt ungefär så här:
What a stupid blunder making a STi 2.5l so they can have the most JIS pferdstärke (aussi connu comme PS ou Be hache Pe), but making the prospective rallyistas who want to prep a car heave the 2.5 and shove in a 2.0t if they are going to fit in the customary world wide standard 2 liter class which adding turbo co-efficients make the car in 3.0 to 3.5l adjusted displacement. there are min weights and wheel widths that normal go up if one is larger than corrected 3.5, if I recall correctly the old GpB Quattros were sleeved down to some screwy size so they would be in the max 3.5 class corrected.
I thought the same thing but since I don't give a hoot what sort of trashy junk street cars anybody is selling, this being a rally forum and all, I didn't comment on what was clearly a stupid, for us rallyist,anyway, move.
It's just more race one thing and sell something bearing no resemblance at all to what you are getting byour headlines with which the Japanese, and for that matter most of the high end German schrott mfg do.
What a blunder, or translated: vilket dum skit, va?
That do
?
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
visst, ingen problem grab. om jag är inte mistagen, jag tror han sa nåt ungefär så här:
What a stupid blunder making a STi 2.5l so they can have the most JIS pferdstärke (aussi connu comme PS ou Be hache Pe), but making the prospective rallyistas who want to prep a car heave the 2.5 and shove in a 2.0t if they are going to fit in the customary world wide standard 2 liter class which adding turbo co-efficients make the car in 3.0 to 3.5l adjusted displacement. there are min weights and wheel widths that normal go up if one is larger than corrected 3.5, if I recall correctly the old GpB Quattros were sleeved down to some screwy size so they would be in the max 3.5 class corrected.
I thought the same thing but since I don't give a hoot what sort of trashy junk street cars anybody is selling, this being a rally forum and all, I didn't comment on what was clearly a stupid, for us rallyist,anyway, move.
It's just more race one thing and sell something bearing no resemblance at all to what you are getting byour headlines with which the Japanese, and for that matter most of the high end German schrott mfg do.
What a blunder, or translated: vilket dum skit, va?
That do
?John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
The Car is a 2.0 litre everywhere else in the world except in the US where it is supposedly a 2.5 litre for some reason. Maybe to help with the turbo lag by giving it better bottom end power? Having driven it in Japan, the car has nothing until about 3500 rpm where it comes on in full and hard, not quite civilised for American consumption. Subaru Japan also sells a stripped out "C" version that is ready to go with roof vents and all.
Hey Morgan!!!
How was your trip to the True Rally Car Heaven of Japan ?
And before Mr. Vanlandingham gets upset I would gladly ship one of his prepped Xratty`s if I could get parts for it in Japan.
I would even gladly buy one of the Escort Bible`s if John can remember whom he lent it to.
From talking to the Subaru Rally Team managers "the majority of the USA market prefer the 2.5 over the 2.0"
Don`t worry I told them of the desires of the frustrated Ralliest`s of America and of their desire to keep the 2.0 Turbo`s.
Robert VanLane
How was your trip to the True Rally Car Heaven of Japan ?
And before Mr. Vanlandingham gets upset I would gladly ship one of his prepped Xratty`s if I could get parts for it in Japan.
I would even gladly buy one of the Escort Bible`s if John can remember whom he lent it to.
From talking to the Subaru Rally Team managers "the majority of the USA market prefer the 2.5 over the 2.0"
Don`t worry I told them of the desires of the frustrated Ralliest`s of America and of their desire to keep the 2.0 Turbo`s.
Robert VanLane
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83 Posts
2500 x 1.7 = 4250cc adjusted ---> 36 mm turbo restrictor in Open
That should take some of the bloom off the 300hp rose.
Ken Hawley
Silenus Motorsports
Kalamazoo, MI
That should take some of the bloom off the 300hp rose.
Ken Hawley
Silenus Motorsports
Kalamazoo, MI
Joined
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5,777 Posts
>Yep. They'll sell a few thousand of the things, make a
>gazillion $$$ in the process, & laugh all the way to the
>bank. What a blunder!!!!
In the context of this forum which is about gravel rally in USA, yeah.
As much as I think the Sub-a-rat is well, sub a rat ie lower than a rat, not just from certain limitations in the engine design and materials (restricted deck height(since it has to have room for _two block head combos between the inner fender wells_), which leads to reduced conrod center to center lenght which results in crappy rod/stroke ratio; an incredibly flimsy crankshaft,junk con rods, and in the past anyway truly trashy cast, not forged, pistons, with cheap weak design: slotted oil return rather than drilled., the piston crowns with the truly bizzzare rectangular dish is plain stupid, and attempt to do something differently for the sake of difference, and finally the packaging restrictions that led to the short block height has a knock on effect of dictating a very short piston compression height, making it difficult to move the ring pack away from the crown.)(All this was just from rebuilding a dead Sti,so it is not merely my personal opinion, it is measurable, verifiable and obvious if you go into the motors)
but that isn't important IN THIS CONTEXT.
Joe, most of the people I know starting out in rally don't have the money to run out and buy a new car, strip it prep it and the crash it.
So most the people I know look for USED cars.
And , as the general trend in North America rallying is toward accepting certain class sizes which predominate worldwide, this decision to sell a 2.5l means that these cars will be useless as potential rally car starter projects when they reach the 3rd and 4th hand markets.
I think it can be read one way: In their rally program they will continue to import drivers and cars and prep things sold elsewhere, not here.
I read this as indicating the same sort of contempt for the concept of competitior support, and in the same vein as the first hand reports of their behavior in MFG council meetings and their arrogant and dismissive responses to suggestion they say Slow down on transits and in the service areas.
In short, for the Japanese who have tradionally had such good long term 10+ year planning in marketing, they have shot themselves in the foot with respect to the longer term results, press, and goodwill which could continue to benifit them were these thing 2 liter and thereby have a second life as viable rally cars.
OK?
Maybe they know they're junk and will be worthless and completely shagged by then?
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>gazillion $$$ in the process, & laugh all the way to the
>bank. What a blunder!!!!
In the context of this forum which is about gravel rally in USA, yeah.
As much as I think the Sub-a-rat is well, sub a rat ie lower than a rat, not just from certain limitations in the engine design and materials (restricted deck height(since it has to have room for _two block head combos between the inner fender wells_), which leads to reduced conrod center to center lenght which results in crappy rod/stroke ratio; an incredibly flimsy crankshaft,junk con rods, and in the past anyway truly trashy cast, not forged, pistons, with cheap weak design: slotted oil return rather than drilled., the piston crowns with the truly bizzzare rectangular dish is plain stupid, and attempt to do something differently for the sake of difference, and finally the packaging restrictions that led to the short block height has a knock on effect of dictating a very short piston compression height, making it difficult to move the ring pack away from the crown.)(All this was just from rebuilding a dead Sti,so it is not merely my personal opinion, it is measurable, verifiable and obvious if you go into the motors)
but that isn't important IN THIS CONTEXT.
Joe, most of the people I know starting out in rally don't have the money to run out and buy a new car, strip it prep it and the crash it.
So most the people I know look for USED cars.
And , as the general trend in North America rallying is toward accepting certain class sizes which predominate worldwide, this decision to sell a 2.5l means that these cars will be useless as potential rally car starter projects when they reach the 3rd and 4th hand markets.
I think it can be read one way: In their rally program they will continue to import drivers and cars and prep things sold elsewhere, not here.
I read this as indicating the same sort of contempt for the concept of competitior support, and in the same vein as the first hand reports of their behavior in MFG council meetings and their arrogant and dismissive responses to suggestion they say Slow down on transits and in the service areas.
In short, for the Japanese who have tradionally had such good long term 10+ year planning in marketing, they have shot themselves in the foot with respect to the longer term results, press, and goodwill which could continue to benifit them were these thing 2 liter and thereby have a second life as viable rally cars.
OK?
Maybe they know they're junk and will be worthless and completely shagged by then?
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
John,
While I agree with you, I dont think Subaru cares one bit about if anyone uses the car for a rally car, they want to sell to the "bling, bling, I have a triple deck wing" crowd. That crowd couldnt care less what size the engine is, and they are the ones who will make money for Subaru, not us.
While I agree with you, I dont think Subaru cares one bit about if anyone uses the car for a rally car, they want to sell to the "bling, bling, I have a triple deck wing" crowd. That crowd couldnt care less what size the engine is, and they are the ones who will make money for Subaru, not us.
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344 Posts
I see the real problem being SOA's refusal to bring the Type C (formerly the RA) to the US. That would be a useful car for lots of racing applciations, but I'm sure US government regulations would take all the profitability out of bringing it over. The STI with the 2.5L will still sell like hotcakes, but not to the "triple deck wing" crowd as impled above, it's too expensive for most of them. I'd love one as a daily driver and Auto-X car!
Alex
Alex
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11 Posts
John,
Could it simply be that their marketing research and other economic factors have determined that a 2.5l STi would sell very well in the US, Rather than a personal insult to those of us that want them to make their cars the way we want them made?
Your points may be valid, but have little substantive value in the sales of cars anywhere in the world. Excepting of course those manufacturers that see there delivered product as incomplete versions of what far more skilled race crews can build from their poorly concieved and constructed finish product.
I rather think they want to sell what they make, and support racing that can fit their products rather than the other way around.
But then what the hell do I know, I am building a Justy rally car.
Troy Peterson
If you can't take the speed
Stay out of the Justy
Could it simply be that their marketing research and other economic factors have determined that a 2.5l STi would sell very well in the US, Rather than a personal insult to those of us that want them to make their cars the way we want them made?
Your points may be valid, but have little substantive value in the sales of cars anywhere in the world. Excepting of course those manufacturers that see there delivered product as incomplete versions of what far more skilled race crews can build from their poorly concieved and constructed finish product.
I rather think they want to sell what they make, and support racing that can fit their products rather than the other way around.
But then what the hell do I know, I am building a Justy rally car.
Troy Peterson
If you can't take the speed
Stay out of the Justy
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5 Posts
Just an FYI thing. Almost 40,000 2 liter WRXs have been sold in the US to date. The 2 liter WRX will continue to be sold in 2003. This should give a nice "reserve" of inexpensive AWD rally car possibilities as the years pass. As the WRX is attractivly priced at about $24,000 new, the higher mileage ones in a few years should be quite reasonable. I might add there is a ton of available modification parts available from many sources. Engines are available from Japan used at very good prices, ditto many other NOS and performance components. There has sprung up a lot of tuning and modification specialists of all sorts with lots of experience and tricks. The WRX is available in a sedan and wagon body with switching possibilities with the earlier coupe version. Two early transmission options, a 5 speed and a 4 speed auto. The newer 6 speed will also enterchange. Knight Racing has used the modified auto in rally and a number of 500++ HP drag race Subys are doing the same.
The 2.5 liter STI version will be sold in ADDITION to the 2.5 liter NA Impreza and 2 liter turbo WRX models. The abbreviated specs (again) on the STI are below. You may note that there are a LOT of new to the US performance components to the STI package that makes it an outstanding performance sports sedan for many purposes.
300 HP @6,000 rpm, 300 ft-lb of torque @ 4,000 rpm (out of the box)
2.5 liter top mount intercooler, with AVCS (variable cam timing)
6 speed manual
AWD with DCCD driver controlled center diff.
Viscous front limited slip diff
Mechanical rear limited slip
Sport tuned suspension with inverted struts
side air bags
Brembo brakes
ABS with EBD electronic brake force distribution
There is a lot more in the package if your curious.
I would guess the new semi closed deck 2.5 liter turbo block will be the genisis of other US turbo offerings coming up down the road.
So in way too many words you have a lot of choices. If you want cheap we will be there. If you want 1.8, 2.0, 2.2, 2.5 NA or turbo or bi turbo we will be there. If you like restrictors you can do that too. If you like to highway drive in a spirited fashion we will be there with choices. If granma needs a great safe fuel efficient car to get around in the snow or slippery Beverly Hills we will be there as well.
Enjoy!
The 2.5 liter STI version will be sold in ADDITION to the 2.5 liter NA Impreza and 2 liter turbo WRX models. The abbreviated specs (again) on the STI are below. You may note that there are a LOT of new to the US performance components to the STI package that makes it an outstanding performance sports sedan for many purposes.
300 HP @6,000 rpm, 300 ft-lb of torque @ 4,000 rpm (out of the box)
2.5 liter top mount intercooler, with AVCS (variable cam timing)
6 speed manual
AWD with DCCD driver controlled center diff.
Viscous front limited slip diff
Mechanical rear limited slip
Sport tuned suspension with inverted struts
side air bags
Brembo brakes
ABS with EBD electronic brake force distribution
There is a lot more in the package if your curious.
I would guess the new semi closed deck 2.5 liter turbo block will be the genisis of other US turbo offerings coming up down the road.
So in way too many words you have a lot of choices. If you want cheap we will be there. If you want 1.8, 2.0, 2.2, 2.5 NA or turbo or bi turbo we will be there. If you like restrictors you can do that too. If you like to highway drive in a spirited fashion we will be there with choices. If granma needs a great safe fuel efficient car to get around in the snow or slippery Beverly Hills we will be there as well.
Enjoy!
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3,258 Posts
John, why don't you tell us how you really feel about Subaru. Don't hold back and don't let the actions of some Subaru drivers affect your opinions }> My 220,000 mile Subaru experience (for one example) doesn't agree. But what do I know. I'm from the right coast.
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124 Posts
You mean it's NOT a conspiracey?
Thanks for the straight poop uncle Phil,
it sounds like a great car - I can't wait!
20,000 huh! I guess the american market has
gotten Japans attention for performance cars.
Now, for a website link with more details....
paul timmerman
Thanks for the straight poop uncle Phil,
it sounds like a great car - I can't wait!
20,000 huh! I guess the american market has
gotten Japans attention for performance cars.
Now, for a website link with more details....
paul timmerman
Joined
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946 Posts
>2500 x 1.7 = 4250cc adjusted ---> 36 mm turbo restrictor in
>Open
>
>That should take some of the bloom off the 300hp rose.
>
>Ken Hawley
>Silenus Motorsports
>Kalamazoo, MI
Does PGT have a restricter?
>Open
>
>That should take some of the bloom off the 300hp rose.
>
>Ken Hawley
>Silenus Motorsports
>Kalamazoo, MI
Does PGT have a restricter?
Joined
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1,275 Posts
> an incredibly flimsy crankshaft,junk con rods, and in the past anyway truly trashy cast, not forged, pistons, with cheap weak design: slotted oil return rather than drilled., the piston crowns with the truly bizzzare rectangular dish is plain stupid, and attempt to do something differently for the sake of difference,
The new engine has high carbon content rods, new forged pistons, semi-closed deck block, etc. This might not be the same technology you are referring to...
Their reasons for releasing were to counter the release of the EVO in the US, and of course introduce an STi product line to the US.
> I see the real problem being SOA's refusal to bring the Type C (formerly the RA) to the US. That would be a useful car for lots of racing applciations
Actually the US model gets a lot of Spec C components on it:
* spec C wheels/tires
* spec C front control arms (wheels 15mm forward, more castor)
* DCCA as standard
etc.
The Brits and Japanese are already jealous. We are getting one hell of a road car. I am not sure what is has to do with rallying. I am sure someone could build up an Open class car based on it (they won't be Grp N legal unless homologated), but it seems like an expensive route.
Glenn
The new engine has high carbon content rods, new forged pistons, semi-closed deck block, etc. This might not be the same technology you are referring to...
Their reasons for releasing were to counter the release of the EVO in the US, and of course introduce an STi product line to the US.
> I see the real problem being SOA's refusal to bring the Type C (formerly the RA) to the US. That would be a useful car for lots of racing applciations
Actually the US model gets a lot of Spec C components on it:
* spec C wheels/tires
* spec C front control arms (wheels 15mm forward, more castor)
* DCCA as standard
etc.
The Brits and Japanese are already jealous. We are getting one hell of a road car. I am not sure what is has to do with rallying. I am sure someone could build up an Open class car based on it (they won't be Grp N legal unless homologated), but it seems like an expensive route.
Glenn
I understand that the STI might be a good street car, but it seems that the marketing department at subaru and reality are heading in different directions. They adverise the WRX and the sti as a "street legal rally car". (Kinda redundant since all rally cars are street legal, but that's not my point.) The STI is intended to steal the thunder from the release of the EVO, but selling it as a "rally car" is not accurate. Someone will undoubtedly build one for rally use over here, but that person will "pay the price" both competitively and financially.
Competitively the STI will suffer a large price from that extra 0.5 liter of displacement that requires it to breathe through a smaller restrictor. Financially you will suffer because there are relatively few "go fast goodies" for the 2.5 liter turbo engine as compared to the 2.0t. Everywhere else in the world the 2.0t is the standard, and there are huge knowledge resources avaiable. The initial devlopment costs of these parts will be borne by the first individuals that wish to give it a shot.
The STI will be a fun street machine, but I don't see it being the dominant threat that some people think it will be.
P.S. If anyone has one, or is getting on in the Seattle area, I wouldn't mind taking it for a spin... }>
phone # is in my profile.
Greg,
Crew Chief
1989 GTX #291
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!!!
Competitively the STI will suffer a large price from that extra 0.5 liter of displacement that requires it to breathe through a smaller restrictor. Financially you will suffer because there are relatively few "go fast goodies" for the 2.5 liter turbo engine as compared to the 2.0t. Everywhere else in the world the 2.0t is the standard, and there are huge knowledge resources avaiable. The initial devlopment costs of these parts will be borne by the first individuals that wish to give it a shot.
The STI will be a fun street machine, but I don't see it being the dominant threat that some people think it will be.
P.S. If anyone has one, or is getting on in the Seattle area, I wouldn't mind taking it for a spin... }>
phone # is in my profile.
Greg,
Crew Chief
1989 GTX #291
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!!!
Here is the Japan Spec car (hopefully these links will work)
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze2j5nz/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/front-view.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze2j5nz/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/back.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze2j5nz/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/interior.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze2j5nz/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/front-view.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze2j5nz/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/back.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze2j5nz/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/interior.jpg
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5 Posts
Greg, the Impreza body type has been rallied for years worldwide obviously. That does not mean Grama's older grocery getter 1.8 or 2.0 Impreza automatic is nessarily a rally car, the same with the STI in the same body type/series. The STI marketing is towards the street performance car buyer and quite obviously not toward the rally user though as you pointed out it may well be there. It's basic, the numbers are hardly in rally car purchases. It will also be true that ANY new vehicle will be more costly to prep and rally than an older vehicle, that's a given.
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