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Discussion Starter #1
Question about trannies for Group F. The rules say H-pattern only, but the rules do not elimiate automatic transmissions specifically. You know which car I'm talking about. I still have the old underpowered, overweight, G5 Citation with the automatic transmission. That car is certainly within the spirit of Group F, but I would hate to spend time getting it back on the stages and find out it isn't legal. What say folks?
 

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As Chief Theoretician and Technical Confessor, I say there's no rule forbidding it.
Just common sense.
Can't save people from themselves.

(And just to make a small correction, the car's with the RULES, but not the spirit, the spirit of the class is about (relatively) cheap solid EASILY UP-gradable car which can be made FAST and EXCITING to drive and watch.... a slush-o-magic thing doesn't seem to be in that spirit)
But knock yourself out.
Oafish-ally



John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

janvanvurpa (at) f4 (dot) ca

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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>Question about trannies for Group F. The rules say H-pattern
>only, but the rules do not elimiate automatic transmissions
>specifically. You know which car I'm talking about. I still
>have the old underpowered, overweight, G5 Citation with the
>automatic transmission. That car is certainly within the
>spirit of Group F, but I would hate to spend time getting it
>back on the stages and find out it isn't legal. What say
>folks?

Your not alone in this one, I was wondering the same. I am also running an automajic 3-speeds of fury. Seems that the group f chief technical officer has given the OK, since it will be to our disadvantage to run the slushboxes. I will hopefully be running Group F in my non-boosted G5 Neon this year.
 

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don't cut
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>(And just to make a small correction, the car's with the
>RULES, but not the spirit, the spirit of the class is about
>(relatively) cheap solid EASILY UP-gradable car which can be
>made FAST and EXCITING to drive and watch....

You've never seen Jerry drive. He can tear an axle out that car better than anyone. I can't speak to how fast he is cuz I don't normally check his times, but seeing the car after a rally I can tell that whatever he did was most definatly exciting!

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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I too am interested in this. H pattern only? Would a TH350 with a B&M slap stick work? (that is a simple back & forth stick, not H pattern)

JC
#595
www.gnimotorsports.com
 

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Discussion Starter #7
JVL doesn't like my slushbox because it's an old Guy Light piece. }(

Anyway, your THM350 with a B&M slapstick is very close to what this is. It is a THM125 with a manual valve body and B&M Quick Click shifter. It's a poor man's dogbox. It will not shift either up or down on its own, and only takes a bump of the shifter to change gears. It originally had some non-obtainium gears, too, but the tranny shop threw them away when they rebuilt it after we broke the case in Maine. It's a fun car to drive. I've got to get to work putting the axle back under it...
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Of course, John, you know you've offended me, but I suppose that's your purpose in life. This silly car of mine with the automagic transmission and an underpowered V6 carried us to a 2nd place tie with Mike Hurst for 2001 G5 honors in Cendiv. Cheap and durable and fast enough to scare ourselves. That's a pretty good Group F formula, isn't it?
 

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You and your car are welcome in GpF.

Thin skin and snivelling isn't.

That's for "Pee" class, as in Pissin and moaning.

If you're offended by a little silly joke, all I can say is grow up.

I'm getting tired of all the "offense" that people _seem to be looking to find_ in comments made just like you were here in front of me, joking and poking FUN cause what we are doing IS ESSENTIALLY SILLY, therefore I will sometime write a comment that is ribbing people.
What we do is not "responsible", and is not "Mature" and the choice to do it at all is cause we want to have fun.

You guys who take offense, especially MattB, Angry Man Halley, maybe you too,
f***ing lighten up.

(Now in real seriousness, all joking aside I'll tell you something to help you guys out, real serious go fast info more important than any other thing you _could_ do:
You guys will NEVER be fast unless you loosen up your whole way of being, and looking at the world.
But the operative word is _could_ do.
Can you?

If you can't read silly comments as very gentle jokes without getting all Harrrruuumpphh-y, how can you read unforgiving road surfaces?)






John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

janvanvurpa (at) f4 (dot) ca

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
You are right, John. I am pretty immature. But at least I don't take unprovoked pot shots at people I don't even know. "You can't save people from themselves" -- tell me that was not meant to offend me.

I'm not some newbie trying to build a rally car thinking an automtic transmission is the secret weapon that is going to make me the ruler of the forest. Cripes! You might even find a couple people out here in (former) CenDiv who respect the fact that I can peddle a Chevy Citation as well as I do. Fun -- I think that was supposed to be the main criterion for Group F. I think this car DOES fit the spirit pretty well.

Me grow up? Seems like a retired rally god like yourself could act a little more maturely at times.
 

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>You are right, John. I am pretty immature. But at least I
>don't take unprovoked pot shots at people I don't even know.
>"You can't save people from themselves" -- tell me that was
>not meant to offend me.

No, it was not intended to offend you.
It is a serious comment about life, applied in a _humorous_ way.
ALL OF US ARE CRAZY to be doing what we do, all of us are beyond help.

I say it again, EVERYTHING is not about YOU.
I don't know you so why would I give YOU sheet?
If YOU would give the next person the respect that YOU expect, then THINKING that they are insulting you unprovoked shows something about what you think yourself, that it somehow makes sense.
It does not make sense.
When something doesn't make sense, maybe there is a misunderstanding.



The subject was a question on legality or not for a automatic, it was answered, YOU were not the subject, and the comments were not about YOU.

Man you guys sure LOOK FOR OFFENSE.
Are you all dainty-like in person?

Makes the crap and they way we talk and work out here seem like we're SAVAGES!
(Gawd I wonder what they say about the use of baseball bats on Volvo rally guys that goes on routinely here...............................
Which nobody takes offense at (they just plead)
"pleeeeeeeze Master don't beeeeeet me master!!!!!"
[http://www.threemoviebuffs.com/miscreview/youngfrankenstein2.jpg]







>
>I'm not some newbie trying to build a rally car thinking an
>automtic transmission is the secret weapon that is going to
>make me the ruler of the forest. Cripes! You might even find a
>couple people out here in (former) CenDiv who respect the fact
>that I can peddle a Chevy Citation as well as I do. Fun -- I
>think that was supposed to be the main criterion for Group F.
>I think this car DOES fit the spirit pretty well.

Fine, I said knock yourself out.
Have fun.
That's what US GpF stands for.
>
>Me grow up? Seems like a retired rally god like yourself could
>act a little more maturely at times.

What's with all you guys telling others to "act maturely" and 'show proper decorum" (I've asked 6-7 people when the last time they used to word "decorum" was and they all burst out laughing, go figure, eh)

Again, you guys need to loosen up, act sillier, smile more, eat less, drink and screw more, live life and quit being so thin skinned about YOUR POSSESSIONS, which are not YOU, thety're mere things, and since here the subject is cars (To quote a fellowmidwesterner so you can't say I'm "denigratin' ya")
ALL CARS ARE JUNK
M.Hurst

just depends on what SORT of junk they are.
 

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>No, it was not intended to offend you.
>It is a serious comment about life, applied in a _humorous_
>way.
>

John, you have the strangest sense of humor I've ever seen. But hey, can't change who we are. Perhaps you should preface your "humorous" text with a :) so that the rest of us will understand that you are joking and not take offense to seemingly offensive comments. Or I guess we could simply take EVERYTHING you say to be fun and silliness, and not as serious or usefull information... just to be safe.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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>>No, it was not intended to offend you.
>>It is a serious comment about life, applied in a _humorous_
>>way.
>>
>
>John, you have the strangest sense of humor I've ever seen.
>But hey, can't change who we are. Perhaps you should preface
>your "humorous" text with a :) so that the rest of us will
>understand that you are joking and not take offense to
>seemingly offensive comments. Or I guess we could simply take
>EVERYTHING you say to be fun and silliness, and not as serious
>or usefull information... just to be safe.

You just figuring out that this is ALL _supposed to be_ fun and silly??
But just because things are said in joking (or for that matter in, to some people, annoying) tone, doesn't mean there is useful and often valuable specific information.

And conversely, just because something is said in a staid and ponderous and faux-decourous way, doesn't mean there is anything useful at all in it.

I don't get paid enough to _act_ serious.

And when I was paid to be a professional, we all laughed all the way to the bar!
>
>Dennis Martin
>[email protected]
>920-432-4845

It does seem that many only want information in one way, and that way is the exact language and idiom that they speak.
I can't help people with that sort of problem.
I may speak a bunch of languages and dialects, but I can't speak "Stuffed shirt".

Again, I gently suggest that a whole bunch of "youse guys" lighten up.


And since Group F is in fact a bit of a "filosofikal" excercise, maybe a word from a Saint might be useful, and not draw criticism (or hurt feelings).

"The world is a book, and those who do not travel, read only a page." -- Saint Augustine --





John "Fie-Fan" Vanlandingham,
Seattle, WA. 98168

janvanvurpa (at) f4 (dot) ca

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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Trannies :

What are you guys ?

All a bunch of perverts ?

Didn't a Tranny star in the Rocky Horror Picture Show ?

Go post your Gay Pride "dogbox" smut on a different site !

:)

Edit :

The preceeding post is an attempt to relieve some of the obvious tension present in this thread, with some light hearted humour.
 

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Hmm... so, aside from the pump that robs like 1/3 of your HP, how is a slushbox with a shifter and manual valve body different from a sequential gearbox? I'm not accusing or anything, because I really don't know enough, but to my untrained ear, they do kinda sound like the wound basically have the same effect.
IMO, this presents a possible "loophole" and should probably be clarified, especially since it is possible to fit a dummy torque converter and potentially "eliminate" the hydraulic losses.
Again, I don't REALLY know what I'm talking about, which is why I'm ASKING the question.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I agree that there should be some clarification, otherwise someone will come up with some trick tranny that is light and powerful and get away with it.

As for this specific tranny, it is an advantage in the fact that I can shift up or down anytime I want without clutching, but overall it is certainly a disadvantage in that it weights about 100 lbs. more than a manual and only has three gears. I'm not sure about the 1/3 power loss you speak of. That may be true during the shift, but I can't believe it is true after the shift.

Another problem with an automatic is the fact that it relies on there being fluid. Crack a hydraulic line and your rally is over. You can't even limp home. We also used to have problems with the fluid sloshing to one side when I would throw the car into an acute turn, despite baffling we had in the pan. Once I became a smoother driver, that problem went away, but it is certainly something to think about.
 

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oooo... I hadnt thought of that...

hmmm... I think I will use a remote electric pump then, ala dry sump & increase the capacity with a can...

JC
#595
www.gnimotorsports.com
 

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Oh, and the weioght is a big diasadvantage. ALso, in an auto there is ALWAYS slippage, hence the heat issue. Unless the TC is locked.

JC
#595
www.gnimotorsports.com
 

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Some maybe-useful opinion from a non-F auto user:

IMHO I see only two "advantages" to my auto, it's easier to drive and handles a lot of torque for very few $$$. I think overall, it is technically a performance disadvanatage (for a good driver) because of the following:

-a lot of power loss
-shifts aren't much quicker, and may actually be slower, than a regular H-pattern manual
-weight, especially with all the fluid and cooler figured in
-heat that must be disposed of

Jim Cox
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>
>-a lot of power loss
>-shifts aren't much quicker, and may actually be slower, than
>a regular H-pattern manual

But with a properly configured torque converter, you don't have to worry about a lack of low-end torque, or the fact that the gears are probably 2.45/1.45/1.0. The torque converter also multiplies torque when you are below the stall speed, it doesn't just slip.

The shifts on a proper automatic are *very* fast. The only thing faster is a drag-only split-slider doxbox (which will actually momentarily have two gears engaged at the same time!). Shifts are pretty much instantaneous and *will* spin or at least chirp the tires on pavement, even at light throttle.

>-weight, especially with all the fluid and cooler figured in
>-heat that must be disposed of

Don't forget the "ATF rule" - anything that requires ATF to function will stop functioning if a line blows.

And then there is cost. A proper torque converter can run nearly $1000 in and of itself.

I expect that automatics only really would have a place in larger-engined cars, where the power lost to the hydraulic pump (this loss is ALWAYS there, it's hydraulic pressure that keeps the bands/clutches engaged) is less of a Big Deal, and the additional weight would just sorta get lost in the weight necessary to get up to spec anyway.
 
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