[Timmerman_Paul]

I heard a report that several, and perhaps many teams at
the Laughlin race experience tread separation on the high
speed stages. For those of you who have not been there,
they have dirt super hiways in the rally where 5th gear
and redline are held long enough to take a nap. I suspect
this have something to do with it. Any more info available
as teams get home and caught up on sleep?

paul t-

 

[Mad Kiwi]

yup the pirellis were delaminating due to the high speed, maybe we need to look into chicaines to keep speed down
Leon

 

[Timmerman_Paul]

Leon,

What kind of damage resulted from these failures?
Did people hurt their cars when they came apart?

I wonder what the fastest they run cars in WRC
on gravel tires these days... Kenya is out and
was a special situation for sure.

pt-

 

[rallytaff]

Buy some better tyres! Use Silverstones!

 

[Scott Peterson]

Also, what were the compounds used? Is soft vs. hard a factor in the failures?

 

[Mad Kiwi]

I saw a lot of fender damage, I really believe this is a serious issue, I would not want a tyre to do that at 130+ mpr on a corner
Leon

 

[Timmerman_Paul]

I agree, serious problem.

I think this one merits additional discussion.

Hopefully people will put together all the facts
so we can learn something.

pt-

 

[randyzimmer]

At STPR there were many Pirelli failures, I think Scheibel lost one and ruined his event.
rz

 

[John Vanlandingham]

>
>I heard a report that several, and perhaps many teams at
>the Laughlin race experience tread separation on the high
>speed stages. For those of you who have not been there,
>they have dirt super hiways in the rally where 5th gear
>and redline are held long enough to take a nap. I suspect
>this have something to do with it. Any more info available
>as teams get home and caught up on sleep?
>
>paul t-
I've heard about these and Prescott's 4 mile nearly arrow straight sections of road and I gotta ask: What's the point?

I'm a big weeenie at speeds above 90-95mph and tend to whimper and snivel, but when it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay staight like i've seen in Alberta, I begin to grumble and swear cause there just doesn't seem to be a point to it.

So are these straight things indespesible to the flow of stages? cause they sure don't prove much.


I have Pat Richard's WRX Sti motor after Prescott total melt down and even though he can say he had best time on the stage (I think) the motor died. He said 4 miles. straight.

Opinions?





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

 

[Foghorn]

Loooong straights would just seem to prove who has the most dollars to spend on ponies, not who is the best driver. Nothing really wrong with other forms of motorsport like drag racing, but it isn't the game we've traditionally been playing.

Kent Gardam
"master of the obvious" ;-)

 

[saywhat]

My guess would be to soft of compound, ad to that the longer than normal stage length the tires are designed for. We see this problem on WRC events also so it's not just here. People I talked with said they could feel the tire going away-over heating-and backed off so as not to boo-boo. The outside temp was warmer then was expected and the roads really dried out between recce and running. I think it was one of those things were the norm for the event didn't happen-had it, things would've been different.

I'm not sure if it is really an issue, it's more of a "this event can be so many different things." IMHO

 

[Roger Hull]

RE: Tim O'Neil and his Tire Failure

Having talked to Tim after the rally, I suspect he was the one that
people were thinking of that had the high speed delaminating problem. Actually, his problem started earlier with a bad off, from his description, at Timmerman's Right Over Crest, which is still not in the route book and several people didn't catch in the recce. It's deceptive because it's no big deal going one way. After his damage from the off he did have a tire come apart on the the high speed section which followed. No tire is failure proof after tackling the rocks of the Grand Canyon.

 

[Timmerman_Paul]

Roger, it's good to know that the teacher had the same problem
as the student. I always said that corner was not in the book,
but could never prove it even walking the course. I feel a little better, thanks.

But I heard a rumor of as many as five tires letting go, so
perhaps this was not an isolated event - but I was not there.

I do not like high speed very much. It is not taxing to the
driver, but is likely to fry a turbo motor or get somebody
killed if anything goes wrong. The fun / safety / challenge
equation is all wrong.

Prescott has high speeds, Laughlin as them, and STPR does too.
My impression is that we do it because the roads are available.

We could sit around and debate who's fault it is, but like
most things there is plenty to go around.

For the sake of competitors safety, I would like to see max
stage speeds enforced. My understanding is that both SCCA and
FIA have such rules. Perhaps we should start enforcing them.

Who would injured by transitting straight-aways?

paul t-

 

[John Vanlandingham]

>
>
>I do not like high speed very much. It is not taxing to the
>driver, but is likely to fry a turbo motor or get somebody
>killed if anything goes wrong. The fun / safety / challenge
>equation is all wrong.
>
>Prescott has high speeds, Laughlin as them, and STPR does
>too.
>My impression is that we do it because the roads are
>available.
>

>
>For the sake of competitors safety, I would like to see max
>stage speeds enforced. My understanding is that both SCCA
>and
>FIA have such rules. Perhaps we should start enforcing
>them.

I believe there are average mph/km per hr rules, not max per se.*
>
>Who would injured by transitting straight-aways?
>
>paul t-
Well put Paul.

But then when the roads get narrow and more interesting, they aren't pool table smooth, and then people bitterly complain about that like when Bill got so much grief.

But rules? What would you suggest?
I think a 1 mile straight is pretty long but my car can top out pretty quick to 105mph, AND I'm a sniveller at 90+.
So....

Maybe the only _meaningful_ series, the WESTERN STATES thang could work out a max length, or something for we "who aren't worthy"..



How about encouraging Routemasters to use their noodle and remember that 99.5% of the folks are happy amatures, and they maybe don't need to so this, if there is any realistic altertnative.

*I have seen English events with a "bogie time" where if you beat the bogie, ie you are say quicker than the 15 minutes on a given stage by say 14m20sec, you get 15 anyway.
This has the added nice effect of not wrecking the overall results of the guys in any but turbo cars.
This is easy to calculate, implement, and do.

So therefore I guess we can't even consider discussing it.



John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

 

[randyzimmer]

If there was a recce of that event, everyone knew what to expect so picking the right tire (tool) was a part of prep for that stage.
If you have a tire deal and your tire manufact. can't keep the tread on, you need to put some pressure on them to make a better tool or slow down.
I entered Rally NY '01 and the tarmac stages were secret and we had no idea when they were and couldn't put on special tires, they were correct in canceling some of the VERY fast stages in that case.
--
I helped build cars for an actor, we were worried about killing him but he said, "I have control of the pedal, just build the car and let me worry about how fast I want to go."
--
rz

 

[Bill Barfoot]

my memory is fading a bit, and I know that Prescott has some high speeds, but I don't remember ANY 4 mile straights in any recent years.. A few years ago the section was faster than most, (Dugas/Orm) but it did have turns all the way through.. Some very nice sweeping turns... Almost had one this year as a spectator stage though.. got canceled due to Forestry issues. I would rather see a few longish straights than have to split them into time controls. More people needed, more EMT's, more Radio, adds time, and it stops the racing momentum. I wouldn't want to see a lot of long ones, but sometimes it is what it is....

 

[Timmerman_Paul]

Bill,

Orm rings a bell. I remember sitting on the rev limiter for
some time, but nothing like some of the other rallies.

I'll bet you still have those multiple flat over crests...

I cannot recall every a spate of tire failures at prescott.
Still, some of those roads are damn fast, and the danger element
is very clearly present.

How about those roads north west of town I was drooling over?

pt-

 

[Ryan Allison]

The straight is long, very long. And over the years my dad and Ray have pondered different ways to slow down the speeds. Hay bails were thought of to put chicanes in the road, the draw back to this is you would have to have a crew out there to make sure the drivers used the chicanes instead of taking them straight.(Not that any would do such a thing.) We thought about hammering stakes into the ground and running caution tape from stake to stake, but you would have to put a team out there. The latter is probably the best solution considering the price of hay and the cost associated with trucking it up to the stage. The other problem is that the road has tour busses using it up to the day it is run in the rally, so you would have to set up the stakes or hay before that stage is run (early in the mourning). So if any of you would like to volunteer for the job of setting up the stakes or hay at the crack of dawn I'm sure my dad and Ray would appriciate it. But then again you are the ones driving the cars and no one is forcing you to keep the engine at the redline for the entire distance.

Ryan Allison
"Warning motorsports can be dangerous!"

 

[perodi]

Please don't change the long straight at Laughlin. If some
cars can't handle it, fix the car. I would rather have some
curves, but straight for a short while (4 miles) is good for
a change.

Patrick

 

[Ray Hocker]

There are couple of facts some may not know:

Tim O?Neil had two front tires coming apart at the end of the long stage (stage 11). Mark Nelson and Rhys Millen were going just as fast and had none.
I spoke to four teams regarding their tire problems and all of them including Tim reported hitting rocks and going off the road prior to the tire failures.
Tim continued driving the stage and not stoping to change the tires after his problem and this resulted in most, if not all, of the car damage. I?m sure Tim weighed the circumstances and made the right decision (he finished third).

I watched cars hit 130+ on straights at several Pro Rally events this year and been told there have been similar tire failures at other events. The long fast sections of the Ramada Express Rally will soon be a thing of the past. The sport is quickly evolving toward shorter and shorter sprint stages followed by a service where teams can change tires after each stage.

I beleve there is no safety issue here. The Ramada Rally?s fast open sections have 50 yard set backs to the trees and are far safer at 140 than events with 90 mph stages with trees only inches from the sides of the car. Secondly, the better funded teams have the resources to make tire choices between performance and durability. Sometimes people are going to make the wrong choice and this is just part of the sport.

We have done our best to make our rally unique. ISoon, we will only be able to tell stories about the ?good old days? of driving flat out for 20 or 30 miles through the open country side. Perhaps Paul is content to transit through these sections of wide open road and would prefers to run several short 5 and 6 mile stages. This is his prerogative and many share his opinion. I came to this sport because long tough events like the Safari Rally appealed to my since of adventure and that is the only explanation I can offer for the way we set up our event.

One can beat the safety drum until the cows come home but the fact remains that the only foot on the gas pedal belongs to the driver and no one makes him driver faster than his ability, the conditions, or equipment allow. (Please note the brilliant use of worn out clichés in that last sentence.)

Ray Hocker
Clerk of the Course, Ramada Express International Rally