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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey what with so called Pro costing absurd amounts to compete for nothing ,
And club events 50% higher than a National event 2 years ago,

Is it time for a Third Tier placed BELOW the exsisting Club?

How about Sub-Club. Entries limited to max $1 a stage mile. Or approx a buck a minute.

I'm sure this could be f****ked with enough so it could escalte in price to the old previous club price, then we could invent Sub-sub-club. Or maybe sub-club club?
Ad infinitum.














John Vanlandingham
 

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or how about those that are bitching about the cost of a rally get off their asses and organize one so they can see how freaking expensive it really is to play in the woods. $1.00 a stage mile... PUHLEASE!!!!


[edit] my curiosity... how much did an event, any event, cost in 1990, that is still being ran today, and how much did it cost in 2002? talking Club dollars here.
 

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>[edit] my curiosity... how much did an event, any event,
>cost in 1990, that is still being ran today, and how much
>did it cost in 2002? talking Club dollars here.

Do you want entry fees, or how much it cost to PUT ON the rally? I can probably dig out the numbers...but IIRC, Club entry fees have just about doubled. Rally budget is about 4X in that time period.

Bruce
 

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just entry fees... I know inflation will cover a 37.2% increase, WITH EVERYTHING BEING EQUAL, which I know it is not, but if numbers are close, maybe, just maybe people will understand the reasoning behind entry fees... :) I know, but I can hope can't I.... :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
>or how about those that are bitching about the cost of a
>rally get off their asses and organize one

HEY BILL, et all,I'm getting pretty fed up with the constant complaints and _CHANGING OF THE DISCUSSION_ to 'NYA, NYA, WHY DON*T YOU put on a rally' from a whole lot of people.

Since it such a fundemental thing, perhaps you have forgotten that there are other things that go into making a rally happen.

Some of us import nice affordable parts for the non-leagacy endowed or Internet rich sorts which is 98% of the field.
Even in the midst of closing down shop, packing and moving back to Seattle from that nest of thieves and criminals Boston, I have been supplying 12+ cages to guys building cars, welded in 4 of them.

Have you supplied anybody a cage or welded one in, lately?

Built engines for rallyist Graham Cullen's SAAB V4, John Lane Volvo V6 turbo, Patrick Richard WRX STi, Kevin Hawkinson Volvo Volvo 240 Turbo, myself Cosworth 4x4,Mike Tirpaks Cosworth 4x4, and supplied all the cometition engine parts for Dave Dunn's FJ20 Nissan,Mike White SAAB 99, and Mike Ryan SAAB V4.

Have you built a rally motor for anybody lately?

I have found nice starter cars for 5 or 6 guys beginning prep.

Have you gone out and found a starter car for anybody lately?

I have help Patrick Richard get his car running(24 hour straight last minute push BS) for your event; helped Eugene Wong with his 323; rebuilt the gearbox for Eric Eatons 323 stepping directly from the van, after towing from Boston to Tacoma, right to the bench; explained and showed and then Loaned proper rear springs to Derek Bottles prior to his first event; then designed and fabricated a big brake kit for 4 piston calipers on the OEM 4 bolt hubs for Derek Bottles 323 Mazda, and did some long overdue repairs and strengthening to the car which nobody else could bother to notice.
Just spent 10 hours helping newbie Brian Pakidar get the dual carb set-up on his RX7 actually running, and running better than ever before, so he could be at the first event, Shitpoke.

Organised a group expedition of 6 newbies from Spokane and 4-5 from Seattle to go and watch and get jazzed last years Wild Waste, and this years Shitepoke. 2 are building cars right now.

Advised Ranger Rick where to find a fresh shell after his exciting rally debut when he could find none. He was out for Shitepoke.

Just showed beginners Neil and James that 3 out of the 4 struts they just bought for their 2nd gen RX7 used were bent, showed in the course of demonstrating what the springs they had been supplied were wrongwith barley 3" of movement before coil bind.
This saved them what? A wasted enrty and a crash probably.

Just sold my old friend Paul Morgan's waaaay beechin Dodge Colt to newbie Jim Thomson after spending several hours explaining background
of what's needed, the current class structure, long range planning, etc. He's an off road motorcycle guy so we could talk, even know mutual acquaintences from 16 yeras ago.

And this is while moving back to Seattle and setting up house and business and making a bunch of street cars go.

Oh, and this while between 40 and 85% disabled, though it's only a flesh wound and it's getting better.

So Bill, and others who may think that some of us might complain too much and say to us to 'shut up and quit your bitching' (Hey Burmeister, this is what others have said, this does not violate your rude note to 'never say Bitch again on SS', I as yet havn't, so relax)

While we all appreciate beyond words the organisinal efforts, we come to events for the roads and the competition and the cameraderie, the spectators come to see the action and the suspense of competition, and while it couldn't happen without what you do, it couldn't happen without a lot of what I do, too.

So why don't you just quit with this changing the subject and attacking the people questioning costs.









so they can see
>how freaking expensive it really is to play in the woods.
>$1.00 a stage mile... PUHLEASE!!!!


>
>
>[edit] my curiosity... how much did an event, any event,
>cost in 1990, that is still being ran today, and how much
>did it cost in 2002? talking Club dollars here.

The typical Co3Sat,Co2 Sunday event here in the NW in 1990 or 1992 cost for late entry (always late!) right at $200 for the weekend, usually run in conjunction with a National. Which cost aroud $350 to $400.

That same event in 1984 cost $85.

And Bill remember that this is not attack on you or your efforts, just pointing out that there are other ways that people contribute to making things happen.

Agitation is one legitimate thing, too.

We all do what we think we're best at, and all think that that is the most vital thing.

Jeeze if you love Honkus













John Vanlandingham
 

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>>or how about those that are bitching about the cost of a
>>rally get off their asses and organize one
>
>HEY BILL, et all,I'm getting pretty fed up with the constant
>complaints and _CHANGING OF THE DISCUSSION_ to 'NYA, NYA,
>WHY DON*T YOU put on a rally' from a whole lot of people.

hmmm... if it is from a whole lot of people, maybe it has merrit...

>
>Since it such a fundemental thing, perhaps you have
>forgotten that there are other things that go into making a
>rally happen.

not forgotten it at all...

>
>Some of us import nice affordable parts for the non-leagacy
>endowed or Internet rich sorts which is 98% of the field.
>Even in the midst of closing down shop, packing and moving
>back to Seattle from that nest of thieves and criminals
>Boston, I have been supplying 12+ cages to guys building
>cars, welded in 4 of them.


SELLING parts to people HARDLY qualifies as helping rally in my book. GIVING advice does, but SELLING is a business, and don't count, sorry. I know you GIVE advice, and that is great, but you also SELL stuff. So just because you SELL stuff, you are making the rally world better??? well shoot, then so is Hyundai, cause the sell a heck of alot of Tiburons, and those are rallied right?

>
>Have you supplied anybody a cage or welded one in, lately?

nope, cause it's not MY BUSINESS to do so.. (there goes that selling thing again)

>
>Built engines for rallyist Graham Cullen's SAAB V4, John
>Lane Volvo V6 turbo, Patrick Richard WRX STi, Kevin
>Hawkinson Volvo Volvo 240 Turbo, myself Cosworth 4x4,Mike
>Tirpaks Cosworth 4x4, and supplied all the cometition
>engine parts for Dave Dunn's FJ20 Nissan,Mike White SAAB
>99, and Mike Ryan SAAB V4.
>
>Have you built a rally motor for anybody lately?

and you did all that for free? NO, oh well then....

SELLING parts to people HARDLY qualifies as helping rally in my book. GIVING advice does, but SELLING is a business, and don't count, sorry.


>
>I have found nice starter cars for 5 or 6 guys beginning
>prep.

not hard to do in this day and age, but thanks for the effort.

>
>Have you gone out and found a starter car for anybody
>lately?

actually, yes, cause it's not hard to do...

>
>I have help Patrick Richard get his car running(24 hour
>straight last minute push BS) for your event; helped Eugene
>Wong with his 323; rebuilt the gearbox for Eric Eatons 323
>stepping directly from the van, after towing from Boston to
>Tacoma, right to the bench; explained and showed and then
>Loaned proper rear springs to Derek Bottles prior to his
>first event; then designed and fabricated a big brake kit
>for 4 piston calipers on the OEM 4 bolt hubs for Derek
>Bottles 323 Mazda, and did some long overdue repairs and
>strengthening to the car which nobody else could bother to
>notice.
>Just spent 10 hours helping newbie Brian Pakidar get the
>dual carb set-up on his RX7 actually running, and running
>better than ever before, so he could be at the first event,
>Shitpoke.

great, thanks for being crew person, done that myself as well... was all that for free?

>
>Organised a group expedition of 6 newbies from Spokane and
>4-5 from Seattle to go and watch and get jazzed last years
>Wild Waste, and this years Shitepoke. 2 are building cars
>right now.

awesome, thanks for that.. might have gotten the rest more involved if you didn't WATCH the rally, but WORKED it...

>
>Advised Ranger Rick where to find a fresh shell after his
>exciting rally debut when he could find none. He was out for
>Shitepoke.

I know you GIVE advice, and that is great....

>
>Just showed beginners Neil and James that 3 out of the 4
>struts they just bought for their 2nd gen RX7 used were
>bent, showed in the course of demonstrating what the springs
>they had been supplied were wrongwith barley 3" of movement
>before coil bind.
>This saved them what? A wasted enrty and a crash probably.

I know you GIVE advice, and that is great

>
>Just sold my old friend Paul Morgan's waaaay beechin Dodge
>Colt to newbie Jim Thomson after spending several hours
>explaining background
>of what's needed, the current class structure, long range
>planning, etc. He's an off road motorcycle guy so we could
>talk, even know mutual acquaintences from 16 yeras ago.

SELLING parts to people HARDLY qualifies as helping rally in my book. GIVING advice does, but SELLING is a business, and don't count, sorry.

>
>And this is while moving back to Seattle and setting up
>house and business and making a bunch of street cars go.

SELLING parts to people HARDLY qualifies as helping rally in my book. GIVING advice does, but SELLING is a business, and don't count, sorry.

>
>Oh, and this while between 40 and 85% disabled, though it's
>only a flesh wound and it's getting better.
>
>So Bill, and others who may think that some of us might
>complain too much and say to us to 'shut up and quit your
>bitching' (Hey Burmeister, this is what others have said,
>this does not violate your rude note to 'never say Bitch
>again on SS', I as yet havn't, so relax)

ok, then I'll just start complaining that your parts are too darned expensive, even though they do come from overseas, or whatever.. heck that part used to be $20.00 in 85, why is it now $60 in 2002?

>
>While we all appreciate beyond words the organisinal
>efforts, we come to events for the roads and the competition
>and the cameraderie, the spectators come to see the action
>and the suspense of competition, and while it couldn't
>happen without what you do, it couldn't happen without a lot
>of what I do, too.

yes, quite franlkly it could. Thinking that many people would not be in rally if you didn't SELL them parts is just a weee bit egotistical. Oh, and yeah, I can be replaced too...


>
>So why don't you just quit with this changing the subject
>and attacking the people questioning cost.

because you have no idea what is involved with an event and you are questioning costs. That is like me questioning your methods for building a motor, and saying it costs too much... I don't care if people question costs at all, it is all this ranting and raving that happens on this board, when no one wants to hear the answers (even when they are posted), and continue to complain, and not ask the right people the right questions (even when they are given contact info), and just want want want... I want it cheaper, I want it easier, racing is already expensive.... THEN GET OUT!!! I am here to have fun, and all the complaining is killing my buzz man!!!

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>so they can see
>>how freaking expensive it really is to play in the woods.
>>$1.00 a stage mile... PUHLEASE!!!!
>
>
>>
>>
>>[edit] my curiosity... how much did an event, any event,
>>cost in 1990, that is still being ran today, and how much
>>did it cost in 2002? talking Club dollars here.
>
>The typical Co3Sat,Co2 Sunday event here in the NW in 1990
>or 1992 cost for late entry (always late!) right at $200 for
>the weekend, usually run in conjunction with a National.
>Which cost aroud $350 to $400.

ok, counting ONLY for inflation, that $200.00 event should be $274.00, that does not count loss of sponsorship, that I hear so much about in the late 80's early 90's, and increased fees over the inflation level... so that example you have given is 25% higher than it should be... wonder where that 25% is going... I know.. I'll go post on special stage that things are getting out of hand and that'll get me the answers i am looking for...

>
>That same event in 1984 cost $85.

OK John, sell me FIA legal Group N cage for my Focus today at the 1984 price... cause that is what you are asking of events...




sorry to rant on... the real world has encroached lately and i don't like it. :) If anyone took this for a personal attack (other than John) I am sorry, it was not meant to be...
 

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John, it's the RED pill, remember, every morning take the RED pill.

Jeese you must have been building that up for a while. I don't see any people atacking your contributions to the sport, in fact I think that even those who you seem to dislike and I am confident that dislike you will even admit your significant contributions.

However your original statement of a $1 per mile could be taken in similar way as to ask why shouldn't a cage cost $1 per foot, installed, hell it is only simple metal tubing fer-gosh-sakes. There are other things involved and those things take time and money, you should know that better than most despite or possibly because of your political views of the world.

In the world of rally organizers I would say Bill is the equavaliant of you in the world of builders (Pete Morris falls into the same group). These guys are busting their asses and not making hardly a thing (less of a living at it than you) to put on very affordable events that remain some of the least expensive per stage minute in the states (30 Treeline miles is like 60 miles anywhere else).

Bill is right, if $1 per mile is doable and you have an idea of how to do it, then go out and do it OR tell some others what they need to know and let them go out and do it.

Ironically the closest that we come to the $1 per mile goal you state is in some rally-x, you know, those things you hate.;-)



Bradney A. Boli
Over Exposure Racing
Honda Accord #311
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Come on Bradney, you all know I'm not complaining about Bill's or Pete's or nearly any organisers efforts. It's just that cost continually rise and there is never an accurate acounting of where it goes, mostly allusions.

And it's been that way since the first rally I did which cost in 1984 $55 for 65 stage miles. Always 'You have no idea what it costs'.

Bill, the ratio of education, advice, calming folks down and keeping them on earth with their plans, steering them, and when they are here in town showing parts and samples of what they have, what it'll do and what they can do to get out there and stay out there in the woods

to billable hours is maybe 5-7:1. So selling folks affordable, durable parts that give them 95% of the performance of the most expensive things at a third or less of the cost of the silly stuff, and last far longer than anything else I've seen, really shouldn't negate the efforts at helping them out, in the end it is the advice that they get which is the best part of the deal cause that they can take with them forever.

And Bill, if you have me build you a motor, you will get an itemized bill with part numbers, breakdown of parts, labor machine shop broken into head, block, etc, assmbly labor, packing, freight, etc.
An accurate accounting in other words unlike what I have heard about many other shops.

And Bill I just went and looked up old checks registers, those figures were
a little high and they were for late entry and that was for the 2 events,
$200 for Saturday AND Sunday and some were for less.

Or approx $100 per 1 day co2 or Co3. Late.


And you want a FIA weld+in kit, really? I'll let you know if my guys do Fucous, it isn't a popular car you know. But I'll ask. Typically I've been quoting for the bendy bits only to save on frieght (you add the straight bits locally and save airfreight) $235-$240 but US dollar has just shat to the tune of around 16%-18%. Plus airfreight.

Thats good for 1984 when Jerry Hines imported Saftey Devices bolt in cages and sold them for over $450-600 (while the retail Engish price was around $145., tee hee)

You need suspension for that thing, gonna blow $3000? Or gonna get something affordable?














John Vanlandingham
 

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Southwest Division publishes its treasurers report. You can see who we wrote checks to for RallyCross, race, solo, and even ClubRally. We have an open set of books. We anticipate a loss of $6000 on our next ClubRally. Some of that is made up by making a profit on RallyCrosses. And that is not charging for things like the 200 miles I put on my car yesterday to attend a meeting or the 6 hours of vacation time I will lose because of that meeting. So organizers do not make money although I am sure they would like to. Shoot, I would like to make minimum wage for the time I put into organizing rallies. Perhaps John means that the SCCA national office is raking in the cash from rallying. According to my division's board of dirctors member, rally lost $250,000 last year. And Arthur Anderson does not do their books. Face it folks, rallying is expensive.
Richard
 

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ahhh... but if you sit down, one on one with an organizer and ask to see the budget, more often than not they'll go over it with you... :)

and I am always looking for parts for the focus' buildup...
 

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>ahhh... but if you sit down, one on one with an organizer
>and ask to see the budget, more often than not they'll go
>over it with you... :)
In our region budget review one year, the comment was made that the beer bill for the Paris rally was higher than the dinner bill for the races. I explained that we partied after all rallying was done while the party during a normal race weekend is Saturday night and you have to get up early the next morning. Plus I told them that race car drivers are weenies when it comes to drinking.
Richard:+
 

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>Hey what with so called Pro costing absurd amounts to
>compete for nothing ,
>And club events 50% higher than a National event 2 years
>ago,
>
>Is it time for a Third Tier placed BELOW the exsisting Club?
>
>How about Sub-Club. Entries limited to max $1 a stage mile.
>Or approx a buck a minute.
>
>I'm sure this could be f****ked with enough so it could
>escalte in price to the old previous club price, then we
>could invent Sub-sub-club. Or maybe sub-club club?
>Ad infinitum.
>
>
Perhaps we could get SubWay to sponsor it?
 

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Ah Yes......Finally.......That's the Spirit!

Thanks John.....Thanks Trevor,

Gees....I didn't think anyone was going to respond to John V's humorous post in the spirit he intended. But finally, Trevor did. Silly humor in the face of seriously rising costs.

So comrade John V. has a bone-in-his-throat about rising costs. So do I and so do most of us. John has "given" a lot to rally over many years. He has based his entire approach to rally preparation on finding low cost alternatives to rising costs. He has earned the right to keep raising the issue.

Let's not get all defensive everytime somebody raises the rising cost issue again. It has become an issue that needs to be raised again...and again...and again, lest too many of us find ourselves parked in "I-can't-afford-it-anymore" oblivion.

Now.....John, tell me about that guy who mooned his buddies from the clear plastic nose of a B24 and ..........

Rich Smith
Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
RE: Ah Yes......Finally.......That's the Spirit!

>Thanks John.....Thanks Trevor,
>
>Gees....I didn't think anyone was going to respond to John
>V's humorous post in the spirit he intended. But finally,
>Trevor did. Silly humor in the face of seriously rising
>costs.
>
>So comrade John V. has a bone-in-his-throat about rising
>costs. So do I and so do most of us. John has "given" a lot
>to rally over many years. He has based his entire approach
>to rally preparation on finding low cost alternatives to
>rising costs. He has earned the right to keep raising the
>issue.

I was just down at Alaska Copper pickin up material for JVAB copies of Ford GpA motormounts and strut top mounts and as often happens, got into a conversation with the guys on the counter what I was doing, and when I said I was making stuff for a bunch of rally guys who were building cars I asked if they knew what rally was.
"Oh like WRC stuff??!!; Whoa cool!
So you're making stuff?
What kind of cars are out there?
ETC"

I asked the question I always ask in the same way: If you think it would be groovy, what is your biggest concern: What is keeping you from building a car?

"Cost" and "information on what to build, I got a ......."
Same as it ever was....
>
>Now.....John, tell me about that guy who mooned his buddies
>from the clear plastic nose of a B24 and ..........

Hey that's no B24 or even the Navy version like what just crshed last week, B24s are 4 engine with twin tails, distinctive nacelles, much larger and a nose with a fair amount of fire-power.They were distincly more Oval in the fuselage to make room for the large bomb load they'd carry on those largely fruitless missions.
I think those guys are in a A6, or A26 medium bomber, which also was sometimes equipped to do anti-ship or ground attack roles with 8 x.50 cal in the nose.
My Dad flew in the Navy versions of all these and I used to know so much more about the powerplants and fuel loads etc. Odd childhood, eh?
>
>Rich Smith
>Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"












Jeeze if you love honkus!



John Vanlandingham
 

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RE: Ah Yes......Finally.......That's the Spirit!

I understand costs are going up, and the point needs to be raised, but don't just raise the point unless you have an idea on how to address it... that is called complaining... EVERY organizer is all ears if you have a way to do it cheaper... Don't want to organize to see if your ideas work, that's fine.. pass em along and we'll test em out.

even if you "get back to the good ol days" and take out all the fluff, rally is still expensive. Road use fees, insurance, EMT's, HAM's, etc... none of which were present in the "good ol days"... Safety costs money now...
 

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Wrong Bone-In-Your-Throat

Bill,

You obviously have a very large bone-in-your-throat over "complaints". But, this is America so get used to it. When you are the organizer you get complaints. When you are the car builder you get complaints. Heck-by-JackRabbit, when I'm the competitor I get complaints from both Organizers and Car-builders.

Don't take things so personally. Entry fees and Organizers are only one part of the equation, and you may very well be doing your very best to keep Club-Competitor costs down in Arizona under present circumstances. But, you aren't getting much help from the sanctioning body either. Most Oragnizers are simply forced to accept whatever rules and requirements the sanctioning body sets up, and passes any rising costs on to the competitors. We all understand how it works.

If you, as a hobbyist Organizer, are resolved to always work for free for the good of the sport you have my sincere appreciation. If you are resolved not to get caught up in the National fiasco and stay away from trying to convert a ClubRally into a ProRally, you have my deepest respect.

But, complaining about people who complain about RISING COSTS is the wrong bone-in-your-throat.

Rich Smith
Long live the "Pro-le-Ralliat"

ps: Safety has always cost money. But, I'm still do not want to buy new seats again just because the rules changed. My tube-frame-fold down Victory racing seats have done very well for 20 years.:)
 

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RE: Ah Yes......Finally.......That's the Spirit!

Summer getting pretty hot, eh? There is plenty of frustration
to go around, requardless of which part of this beast you
grapple with...

>Pro-La-t-lariate (sic)

If you want some serious pain and frustration,
try marketting a national series, or putting on a WRC event.
This would make putting on club rallies or building cars seem
easy. I am NOT making excuses for anybody. But look around...

>Subclub

If you want cost containted events you will have to consider
coefficient one events that require small number of people
and space to put on, it's that simple. There is you sub-club.
You can call it a rally-sprint championship. It looks a bit
like solo unfortunately, not enough seat time, but at least
you are able to get together an burn up some tires...

>Tarmac Championship

Because of land issues, Tarmac may be alot easier. Now you just
haul away the wrecks, mop up the oil, sweep up the dirt and rocks
and walk away. No grading, no huge use fees. But with tarmac you
have issues of who will come out and what the flavor of
the event will be. Many more type A road racer types I suspect,
but maybe not, it would be a good experiment...

I suspect it would be more of a hillclimb thing, but like Michelle
said, if you want to separate the men from the boyz, race DOWN!

paul t-
 

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no bones here

see...

complaining does nothing to resolve the issue, thus a waste of time and energy. I usually stay away from such threads here, as I have little energy, and even less time...

bringing up the issues, WITH some sort of possible solution (no matter how off the wall it may be) is a beutifull thing, and will get everyone thinking and talking...
 
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