The Right way to do Single Make Series

My French is rusty having been on the left coast for some 10 years now, but I can read this well enough:

(all under the red minus signs)

Challenge Saxo VTS - "prix du kit"
Voant Peugoit 206 - "côut des kit de préparation"
Trophee Saxo Super 1600 - "prix du kit"
Trophee Saxo T4 Super 1600 - "prix du kit"

...seems that the author felt they all had something in common.

prix = price
côut = cost

You non-French speakers can figure out the rest easy enough.

Bill Westhead
under-funded co-driver at large

Holy crap! Now that is a one make series.

Let's see here...
*digs out the old collins pocket French dictionary*
It's been a few years since I escaped the gulags of Canuckistan where I was forced to learn the way these evildoers talk...

Converting everything to USD$, bein sur

Saxo VTS Challenge
. 6 races
. costs $3500 to enter the season
. each win gets $4500
. prizes are awared down the ** 35th ** spot
. additional $$ for top finishing youngsters (born after '76)
. additional prizes of free gas from Total
. the TOP THREE finishers at the end of the season get a FREE CAR

Peugeot 206 Cup (wheel?)
. 8 races
. each win gets $6000 plus $1750 in free stuff from the Peugeot Sport store (tires, parts, etc)

Saxo Super 1600 Trophy
. 6 races
. each gravel win $14,000
. each tarmac win $11,500
. "joker" random bonus prizes
. class/cars are FIA approved (can be used outside of series)
. races are part of French championship (big exposure!!)

I'll leave the Saxo T4 details as an exercise to the reader.

Note the clearly stated contact names and phone numbers for each series - no secrets where some people have put down deposits on cars before the majority even know any details? What a crazy system!

CLEARLY this is some sort of commie plot by the French to take WRC seats away from us poor unappreciated (North) Americans!!! The bastards! Don't they know that this sport is supposed to be a money pit with no tangible rewards or exposure, where success is a function of one's bank account?

Skye }>

[table cellspacing=20][tr][td]
http://www.rallyrace.net/images/CARtoons/rs500coswht.gif
[td][font size=-1]
Skye Poier (Seattle WA)
Vive le Prole-le-Ralliat!
www.rallyrace.net
Black Rocket Rally Tires
www.blackrockettires.com
[/table]

With used Super 206 Cup cars going for 19K GBP, poor clubmen like me might prefer something like the somewhat tattier 205 series

It comes in two variants: 205 1.6 or 205 1.9. The winner of the 1.9 Scholarship series for 2003 got a 206 Super Cup ride as a reward.

They even have test days set up so you can try out both cars, with or without prof. instruction, before you make the leap to buy or build a car.

Did someone mention Mark Higgins - he just guest drove a 205 1.3 car and beat all of the 1.6 and 1.9 cars, finishing 6th OA at the Midtown Stages rally.

This looks like an extremely-well run series. Very useful web site:
http://www.205challenge.com/index.asp

_______

Granted that the whole "hand-picked special competitors putting down deposits" rumour is nothing more than speculation - having looked at a number of one make series (Mexico, France, GB) they all seem very transparent and open. They may have a numbers limit (reached for the 2003 205 1.6 series) but AFAIK, they don't play exclusivity games (funny how over here in the land of the free, that might be the case...)

I would say that the 205 series would be a good model to look at:

Rally-worthy, reliable used cars with a decent spec that can run outside the series.

How about this:

2001 Nissan Sentra SE
VLSD, SR20DE, 145hp, 135 ft-lbs, up-to-date body style (same as current Sentra, even if the motor's different)

Use this just as a starting point. There are lots of cars in this exact bodystyle (Nissan B15) and thousands of SR20DE motors around. It's one generation older, but I'm pretty sure that a lot of the pieces developed for the NISMO EUR Almera GTi F2 car (there's MIGGINS again...) would work. There's even a dog gear set available and being marketed in the US, NISMO clutch pack LSD, DMS fitment, Hot Bits fitment, Bilstein (F2 car). Group A and Group N build manuals...

Robin

Well I just went and did some actual research, and here's how they define expensive... crossposted from a response to my question on another BBS:

[blockquote]
The price is much lower than Super 1600. I take the 206 Cup as an example:

The car is the 206 XS 1.6 and it is basically a group N car but with all seats, carpets and other useless stuff removed ex factory (saves cost), then it has bigger group A brakes, limited slip diff, the engine is Peugeot Sport tuned and sealed (must stay sealed) and produces 140BHP, 30BHP up on the road version.

This car including all the necessary motorsport kit costs £19,500, which is in the area of 30,000 Euros or US Dollars - yes, for the complete car with kit! And of course these cars are available 2nd hand as well.

For this price, to purchase a 206 XS Challenge specification:
- You MUST purchase the car through Peugeot Sport (or in the case of a 2nd hand purchase, show the car to Peugeot Sport and show that all the seals are in place).
- You MUST sign a contract with Peugeot Sport that i.e. dictates you to accepting sponsorship as for example the red Total stickers on the bonnet and you MUST start on at least 2 Peugeot Cup events.

You could get your expense back (if you are good) in competing in the Peugeot Cups. I.e. for a win on a Peugeot Cup event, Peugeot pays you £2,000 (?/$ about 3,000) and the winner of the whole Cup gets a Peugeot works drive for next season. And there are other prizes as well, i.e. "The Late Season Charge Award", when you make the biggest charge up the championship tables in the last 3 or 4 events, this award comes in shape of a Peugeot 206 road car for you.

All PSA Cups run on similar lines to this, however:

Now the prices and prizes in the above example are actually taken from the UK Peugeot 206 Cup, which I know very well. The French Volant Peugeot 206 runs very similar to this indeed, however the prices and prizes may be slightly different. So I understand in the French Volant 206 the prize money is slightly less, therefore once a year you are entitled to a free new bodyshell to stop you hesitating to attack.

BTW this way of finding and supporting future talent really works well. Previous Peugeot Cup winners include:
F 1988 Francois Delecour
GB 1991 Richard Burns
F 1992 Gilles Panizzi
GB 1996 Justin Dale
F 1998 Cedric Robert
F 2001 Alexandre Bengué (seen his stage times in Corse?)
F 2002 Bryan Bouffier (watch him go this time next year in a WRCar, this guy is a Loeb-like sensation! (and funny enough lives down the road from Loeb))

To the other Cups, PSA runs them all on similar lines, the differences are mainly in the cars and budgets. The order would be somewhat like this:

Peugeot 205 Challenge - using old, group N 205 GTI, very cheap, but Cup winner gets a season in the 206 Cup.
Challenge Saxo VTS - using a group N Saxo.
Volant 206/206 Cup - using a 206 XS with 140BHP and some group A parts
Trophée Saxo Super 1600 - Saxo VTS, Challenge spec like 206 XS but with power increased to 155BHP
Trophée T4 Saxo - They call this car a Saxo T4 like the WRCar is a Xsara T4. Technically the Saxo T4 is identical to the other 155BHP Saxo, but the T4 is 4x4 - hence there is one Saxo Cup for asphalt and one for gravel, while the Volant 206 is combined.
[/blockquote]

So it looks like the price of the kit is about the same as the number being guessed at here. But, who wants to bet the payout and rewards are going to be an order of magnitude (or two) smallers? Call me cynical...

Skye

>didnt mark higgins bail on these types of cars due to thier
>high operating cost and switch to a used GN WRX that he just
>placed 15th OA in corsica?
>
>to answer my own ? yes he did.
>
WRONG

He was running super 1600 cars not these ones. The supper 1600 car cost about $100,000 and has things like sequental gearboxes, 220 Hp, etc. Supper 1600 cars run in the A6 class. The supper 1600 or the Junior World Championship car was designed after this artical came out so there may be some naming confussion.

The 206 Cup, Polo Cup, Clio Cup etc use standard H patern gear boxes, make more like 150-180 HP and are very basic, a fully built ready to start Clio cost about $19,000 new. These cars typicaly run in the N3 class (the 206 is an A6 car however but still not a super1600 A6 car). Used 206's and Polos are anywere between $7,500 and $22,000. Operating cost compare well to what I spend to run my Golf in the US and Canada. In some ways they even have better limits on costs, 206 cup limits the number of tires you can use a day for example.

I suggest that everyone read ALL the information at:

http://www.peugeotsport.co.uk/206supercup/

to learn more about this one make championhip now on its 15th year of running in the UK. The 206 Super Cup is the most expensive of the ones I have looked into but there is good info in english so go read it.

Some highlights for those to lazy to go read it all:

Peugeot provides a truck with spares so you do now need to buy them till you need them. (I likely have $2000 of spares sitting in my tow truck that I may or may not use)

Peugeot provides $150 to every team that starts to lower entry fees.

Peugeot pays $15000 out betweent he top 10 teams at every event.

At the end of the year about $20,000 is paied out to the top teams for the year. The winner gets a drive in the Super 1600 206, you know the class Mark Higgens was in that cost too much, but in this case Peugeout picks up the tab.

The Campionship is set up so new drivers will earn the events they need at local (club events) prior to the championship moing to larger events later in the year.

The car runs on pump gas only, no race gas is allowed.

I hope that the folks putting together the SCCA/Lancer one make class took a good look at these rules, it is a real education.

Derek Bottles

>Used 206's and Polos are anywere between $7,500 and $22,000
>
>Derek Bottles

I think you mean pounds...

and even at that - on rallycodriver.com now:

Used Polo Challenge cars, one for 9750GBP, one for 9500 (avg around $16K USD)

Used 206 Cup cars, 18.9K GBP, 19.9K, one that needs work for 17K (avg around $32K USD - that's $43K CAN)

Note that the used 206s are selling with a few spares, close to the brand new price.

You'd think we'd want to try and do better than that - a one make series is about driving. The greater number of drivers competing the better right?

Robin

No, he meant dollars....
A brand new 206 cup car is 19,500 quid (see my post above)
I just found a used Polo Challenge car for 6000 quid,
used Peugeot 306 challenge car for 7000 quid, etc
Not sure where you're finding your prices can you post a link?
Oh wait I found it you meant rallycodriver.co.uk not .com
Also your exchange rate is a bit off and its not helpful to talk in USD because the USD has been tanking over the last year (xe.com/ucc)

I think you're missing an important point though - there are substantial PRIZES and contingencies available in EACH RACE that can recoup a lot of your costs if you finish in the top 3-5 places. Plus the series are integrated into National championships in some cases, so you also get very good exposure. Will the "Lancer Cup" get airtime on Speed?

It looks to me like the one-make series which may happen here will cost about the same for the car - but will there be any chance to recoup, and will the car be competitive outside the series (lifetime)? That remains to be seen.

This thread is "The Right way to do Single Make Series" and I don't think it can be Right without substantive prize/contingency programs. Supplying a kit car is not enough IMO.

Edit: added some prices

Skye

I think there are enough people interested in competing in evenly matched cars that just setting up a spec car series would draw interest.

Timing is critical at this point: It is really late to get the program together for 2004, but introducing it, providing opportunities to see the cars, maybe even test the cars in preperation for 2005 seems smart

To draw more interest there are many variables:
- price the cars to be very affordable
- include all the needed equipment
- ensure the cars remain as designed (to spec)
- ensure the cars are competitive in an exsisting class for resale
- offer incentives (discounted replacement parts, contingencies, year end prize funds, opportunity for a paid or no expense season the following year...)
- assist with team marketing to help each team attract and retain individual sponsorship
- assists with exposure opportunities for the interested teams (might even require it) at auto shows, local events


Someone familiar with the Suzuki class in Canada or the old truck class in the US might be able to add additional do's and do not's

Mike

7K (avg around $32K USD - that's $43K CAN)
>
>Note that the used 206s are selling with a few spares, close
>to the brand new price.
>
>You'd think we'd want to try and do better than that - a one
>make series is about driving. The greater number of drivers
>competing the better right?
>
>Robin
Actually single make series DONE THIS WAY are about PROMOTION.

And boys, that's the point of the separate post.
A contrast with the innuendo and posturing and "well I heard" and in short the focusing on the CAR, and what seems like to me some sort of reverse bragging about how well connected one is with this "I can't say, but......." stuff.

To make it a bit more clear:
Without THIS sort of support, there will not be any large numbers, and without large numbers it seems to me that the hinted at thing will be just a Press Release Excercise, and I rank "For Immediate Release" things as just that, as soon as I see those dumb and meaningless words, I release the thing, right over the trash can.

And since there doesn't appear to be the will to make a broad deep single make series, which does need MFG support, what's the point in yakking about what is the norm, a few guys yakked their way into what appears to maybe possibly be a way for getting somebody to cover some of their costs so they can go PLAY at driving.

However just for some interesting details, look at the way SUBSTANTIAL PER EVENT prizes, premiums and even gas and gift certificates are payed out PER EVENT, 80,000FF per event on 6 events in the SuperSaxo, or in Amerikanski Valuta about HALF OF THE YEAR END AWARD For Sub-a-rat win for GpN.

It's clear that there is a significant difference in INTENTION in the way promotion, and prizes and depth of payout is done in France.

Some folks might suggest that their _real_ intention is spend whatever is needed to make sure that there are more Froggies in International and World competition just to block the aspirations of all the latent American talent, remember, when you've been around a wwhile, you'll see that the French just aren't trustworthy.

But after 2 seasons in France, I didn't see that and I know what their intent is.







John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/

I used the $ to mean USD. I do see that the prices have gone up a but since I last looked and the $ has gone down so on the currnet sample my prices are a bit low but that is not the point. Now for a shocking consept - if the used cars sell for about the same as the new ones well then the car cost nothing - it is free.

IE if I take some cash and go buy a 206 for 19,000 pounds run it for a year and then sell it for 19,000 pounds what did the car cost me?

Now others may not have 19,000 pounds sitting around so they need to get a loan. They would pay about 4000 for the year in intrest payments, so the car cost them 4,000 to own for the year.

All other cost are operational cost and every rally car has those.

Think about this - it may be cheaper to own a $30,000 lancer than it is to build a Xratty - it all depends on the reasale value. Now if Mitsu offers to run the car though their financing arm...

I have long said people should not fixate on the price of the cars, look at resale, operaitonal costs and earning potintal. The $30,000 cars may be the best bargans.

Derek

>A brand new 206 cup car is 19,500 quid (see my post above)

Or go straight to the horses' mouth: the 206 Super Cup web site of which most of us are familiar...

>I just found a used Polo Challenge car for 6000 quid,
>used Peugeot 306 challenge car for 7000 quid,

6000 pounds is the cheapest Polo Challenge car going by a long shot - they consistently appear advertised at the 10K GBP level and this one is still USD$10,034 - not quite 7500.
A 306 Challenge car is a different animal than a 206 Super Cup car, given that the older series is now defunct, it's now a slow Group A car - and there is no used 206 Cup car FS for anywhere near 7000 'quid'

Derek's point about residual value posted below is a good one. But note what happens when the series ends (witness your 'representative' 306). Also note what happens when you write the thing off. Or wait - what happens when the series follows the lead of the North American Touring Car Series?

>Oh wait I found it you meant rallycodriver.co.uk not .com
>Also your exchange rate is a bit off and its not helpful to
>talk in USD because the USD has been tanking over the last
>year (xe.com/ucc)

My rate is taken from XE. What currency do you talk in? If you're living in the U.S. and aren't currently hoarding GBP from before the USD started to tank - then USD is the only useful currency to talk about. It's foreign exchange - you have to use your U.S. (or CAN) dollars to buy British Pounds if you're going to buy British goods. Likewise, if the U.S. dollar is tanking then prices of European and Japanese cars rise.


>
>I think you're missing an important point though

If I'm missing the point by talking about car price, then why the substantially lower estimates of buy-in value - why not acknowledge that these cars currently cost what they cost?


- there are
>substantial PRIZES and contingencies available in EACH RACE
>that can recoup a lot of your costs if you finish in the top
>3-5 places. Plus the series are integrated into National
>championships in some cases, so you also get very good
>exposure.

Do you mean that in Britain, where nobody even knows what rallying is, they've found sufficient support and exposure to actually PAY these Super Cup drivers for top finishes?! Blink blink.

>It looks to me like the one-make series which may happen
>here will cost about the same for the car - but will there
>be any chance to recoup, and will the car be competitive
>outside the series (lifetime)? That remains to be seen.

Robin

Single Make Series Memories

Not rally-related but a true-life experience...
I ran in the old Rabbit/Bilstein series that supported Super-Vee and CART or Can-Am and here were some of the things that attracted me...

It was a car that was almost tough enough to survive a season and the things that it needed to not fall apart in front of all those fans were written in the rules as mandatory and made very affordable to buy (shocks, tires that didn't blow up and oil pan baffles).
The cars were nearly stock and the rules were policed but not well enough for my liking. (VW did not supply built cars).
There was some room to make some side money. I offered roll cages and seats and prepped some cars and did some testing and instructing/coaching.
If the rules were changed, a package showed up to update the car if you'd run most of the season the previous year. (example: crank and pistons arrived when cars went from 15 to 1600cc. When went from Scirocco to Rabbit, press and test cars were made available).
There was an entry class and a supporting purse for locals to try out the class in a junior spec. (example: an SSC rabbit could run in the pro race without the Bilsteins and wide Goodyears {both were associate sponsors} and you could collect overall money plus a bonus. If you liked the series, you were invited to upgrade and run the rest of the races.)
The purses were OK, if you spent wisely and finished 5th or better, you could pay expenses and do alright. (example: 1979 dollars: 1st=$2,000, $10,000/race, 15th got entry fee back) Top 3 got to go to Germany for a race and the same for the Germans who came to our season-ender (except I got screwed out of it).
Ran with real pro races in front of real people and real race teams. I got to mingle with real pro drivers and see what it was really like during real race weekends.
----
some not so good things:
There was no serious resale value once the class evaporated, the cars were too modified for showroom and they went into Showroom Stock Enduro (SSE), a catch-all Regional class for orphans from Renault Alliance Cup, Playboy Challenge, Firehawk and others, so the cars were still usable somehow.
The class was a 3rd class filler, if there was a lull, like when the INDY cars guys didn't want to qualify with the sun in their eyes, it was, "Rabbits grid in 10 minutes!"
Rich guys could still outspend with back-up cars, blueprinted everything, crews, transportation, real hotel rooms and testing made racing with a car driven to the track and slept in a little lopsided but possible (I won one race and finished in the top 5 usually).
---
Sure, everyone wants to race for free, but if the competition is good and you feel you are good enough, you take the chance. If the series isn't policed and promoted half-assed (Rabbit/Bilstein was boarder-line in that aspect), why bother (examples of promotion disasters: Shelby can-am, Panoz GT-1, Pro SpecRacer-Renault, then Pro SRF, Toyota Racer).

rz