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Discussion Starter #1
The new thread, "what are you views on Reece for events", is nothing but a rehash of old stuff. And from it I can gather no real feelfor entrants desires. How about this poll with no comments, and onl
 

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recce? eh...

maybe it's because we don't do recce enough in the staes but i have found it not worth the extra time if the stage notes continue to be good. the extra day or 2 that a recce event would take may be the straw that brakes the camels back for a particular event. time off from work is hard enough to get. as for me, recce at rally new york certainly didn't help! :)

James
Team Saabworks


walking again...
 

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Discussion Starter #4
RE: Pro, Club, or both?

Yes, both, either/or. This is not intended to be gender specific. Just a general poll. Don't forget, SCCA is not the only ball game in town. Others, like NASA, dont have quite the same seperation. And most of us enter both type of events. I personally like to run notes, but enjoy a blind rally once in a while and hope the mix doesn't change. Our roots are in blind rallies.
 

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Hmmmmm...

Copied from that other topic listing...sorry.

------------------------------------

In my opinion and experience, the Jemba notes are nearly always very adequate in detail (certainly better than any route book...and worlds better than some). Sure recce would be better in some respects, but worse in others.

I guess if recce became available, I would do recce, because I want to give myself every opportunity to win that I can, but I'd rather work those other 2 days and be able to rally every year instead of taking a year off to recoup my expenses (like this year).

And many would be driven right out of the sport. You can say its optional if you want (don't HAVE to do recce). Sure. That would be like going to the race track and saying, if you spend 5000 you can race with all your plug wires attached, but if you spend 3000, we'll still let you race, but you'll have to remove 2 plug wires. We are competitive people and want to do the best we can. So it would mean either we ante up and do recce or find a sport that costs less to show how good of drivers we really are...not how thick our back pockets are. Or we would just rally once or twice a year...until that was no longer allowed.

----------------

You can probly guess that I chose Jemba, no recce. I wonder of those who are choosing BOTH Jemba and recce, who is doing a full season? Heck, for that matter, I wonder how many of them are even competitors! Love public forums.
 

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Very interesting!

Quote: "The new thread, "what are you views on Reece for events", is nothing but a rehash of old stuff. And from it I can gather no real feelfor entrants desires. How about this poll with no comments, and only answer if you are or have been a driver or co-driver in the last 2 years. Okay?"


Here is a very interesting fact!

To try to have a more reliable data set, you have asked that only drivers or co-drivers respond if they have been active in the last 2 years.

At the time of this post, you have 40 votes.

From rallyracingnews.com (I love the stats over there!) I see that the number of drivers who competed in at least 7 of 8 national events in '03 is 10. In '02, drivers who competed in 8 of 9 nat. events numbered to 11.

For codrivers, its 11 and 6 respectively.

Granted, this isn't exactly two years back from right now...and I ain't gonna look through entry lists to get the exact number over the span of time you specify, but over MY 2 year period, we have only 38 competitors who ran all or all but one event...something one does when he/she is actually running for a championship and has healthy competition. 38. That's less than your total response right now.

My point? I have a feeling a lot of you people who voted for RECCE do not know the time involved with running a whole championship season.

I would like to sample the data further, asking for those who have competed in at least half of the national events in any given year. But then I'd be accused of being selective and elitist and just a general prick.

Gosh I love forums.

Bottom line, give us recce and I'll see you at 3 events a year. Tops. Give us stage notes for the bargain price of 150 a pop and I'll probly see you at every event next year.
 

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RE: Very interesting!

i have codriven in club rallies only. and i voted for blind w/no notes only the route book.

150 is the cost of my hotel room for the weekend. sleep or drive 15-30 seconds (if even that much) faster per stage . hmmm, i choose sleep.
 

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RE: Very interesting!

>
>Here is a very interesting fact!

>At the time of this post, you have 40 votes.
>
>From rallyracingnews.com (I love the stats over there!) I
>see that the number of drivers who competed in at least 7 of
>8 national events in '03 is 10. In '02, drivers who
>competed in 8 of 9 nat. events numbered to 11.
>

>
>My point? I have a feeling a lot of you people who voted
>for RECCE do not know the time involved with running a whole
>championship season.
>
>I would like to sample the data further, asking for those
>who have competed in at least half of the national events in
>any given year. But then I'd be accused of being selective
>and elitist and just a general prick.

Let's see, Burmeister is a good sound German name so maybe your being a little gherkin.

Actually you've just broached another very important fundemental issue, and that is the meanigfuyllness or not of a series with less that a dozen participants spread over several classes.
The question you didn't ask is What is the point of concentrating all efforts into a series when the series is meaningless?
But that IS another thread which should be started.

Maybe once the question of what we are doing is supposed to mean (not why do we participate, thats like saying why do you like mustard) is examined more carefully.
>
>Gosh I love forums.
>
>Bottom line, give us recce and I'll see you at 3 events a
>year. Tops. Give us stage notes for the bargain price of
>150 a pop and I'll probly see you at every event next year.





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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Discussion Starter #10
RE: Very interesting!

Sure, you could word it differently and have many different options, etc. But I still feel it gives some kind of idea of where people want to be. The vocal is not always the majority (in fact usually not?).
 

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RE: Very interesting!

>I wonder of those who are choosing BOTH Jemba and recce, who is >doing a full season? Heck, for that matter, I wonder how many of >them are even competitors!
Me for one ... just a slacker fly-and-ride navvie . . .
>
>
>My point? I have a feeling a lot of you people who voted
>for RECCE do not know the time involved with running a whole
>championship season.

I do .... it is definately very hard on most drivers
(especially if you have to do ANY of the towing)

>
>But then I'd be accused of being selective
>and elitist and just a general prick.
you ? nawww ! }> }> }> }>
>
>
>Bottom line, give us recce and I'll see you at 3 events a
>year. Tops. Give us stage notes for the bargain price of
>150 a pop and I'll probly see you at every event next year.

I know it has probably been said before:
(and I'm gonna say it again)

Most nationals start on Friday evening . . . allow teams one
pass of recce (with Jemba notes if they want 'em) in the morning
(yeah, we'll ALL have to wake up at 5am ...)

Same thing can apply to most one day club events too !
... one pass early morning recce

I think all competitors would be much happier after having seen the
roads just once. :) :) :) :)
 

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RE: Very interesting!

It certainly doesn't feel like rallying if I get to drive the road before competing on it.

Feels more like we're heading for practice and qualifying and all that BS the road racers get to do. What's the point? All those old farts in road racing think we're nuts, driving flat out on those unimproved primitive roads.

Yes, I voted for all blind rallies, all the time. Kinda takes the challenge out of rallying if you know every inch of the road. I always thought of rallying as driving as fast as you can on roads you haven't seen before. Even if you've seen them before, you haven't seen them, as from event to event, the roads change. Weather, passage of vehicles, etc. change the roads.
 

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RE: Very interesting!

>My point? I have a feeling a lot of you people who voted
>for RECCE do not know the time involved with running a whole
>championship season.

I am usually a fly-in/drive-in co-driver. I go where the rides are.

I went rallying 13 weekends my first season and 16 weekends last season. I might go rallying as few as 10 weekends this season. I have done recce at three rallies and I know it is a ton of work.

I voted for notes with optional recce.

alan
 

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Recce

I voted for Recce with no notes.

In my opinion, the Jemba notes (which are excellent, and I enjoy running them) are probably too much of an outright capital expense for a lower-budget club rally organization staff.

Providing Recce gives the option of notes with the more intangible costs of volunteer hours and novice pace noting seminars. I know a lot of people complain about hours of work and all that, but I think that an extra day isn't too much of a problem for most competitors.

Recce with stage notes is like a worst-case scenario cost-wise for the organizers, and however desirable it would be to add notes to the Jemba stuff, I just feel those events would be few and far between.

So far I've run only blind and Jemba rallies (I went to Canada but Rocky this year was Jemba), but I am looking forward to PFR where we'll be running Recce.

So maybe my opinion will change after a recce rally, we'll see!
 

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RE: Recce

>In my opinion, the Jemba notes (which are excellent, and I
>enjoy running them) are probably too much of an outright
>capital expense for a lower-budget club rally organization
>staff.

Agreed. I've run with notes done by other methods/people and I think the Jemba notes are the best.

>Providing Recce gives the option of notes with the more
>intangible costs of volunteer hours and novice pace noting
>seminars. I know a lot of people complain about hours of
>work and all that, but I think that an extra day isn't too
>much of a problem for most competitors.

That really depends on how many events you run in a year. If you are running for a championship (i.e. the majority of events), the time cost becomes significant.

>Recce with stage notes is like a worst-case scenario
>cost-wise for the organizers, and however desirable it would
>be to add notes to the Jemba stuff, I just feel those events
>would be few and far between.

Stage notes (at national events) currently don't cost the organizers a significant amount (unless I misunderstand how the economics work). IIRC the Rocky notes were subsidized by one of the event sponsors, with the rest being paid by the competitors. The SCCA ProRally notes are (theoretically) fully paid for by the competitors.

>So far I've run only blind and Jemba rallies (I went to
>Canada but Rocky this year was Jemba), but I am looking
>forward to PFR where we'll be running Recce.
>
>So maybe my opinion will change after a recce rally, we'll
>see!

You will like recce (your recce car might not, though). Personally, though, I would have liked to have a set of notes as a basis to work from when we did recce at Baie this year (of course, next year I will have that...)

Adrian
(who didn't bother to vote in the poll)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
RE: Recce

>Adrian
>(who didn't bother to vote in the poll)

Why not? I wanted votes, not opinions. Opinions have been given in several other posts. Notice I didn't even give my opinion x(
 

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RE: Recce

>>Adrian
>>(who didn't bother to vote in the poll)
>
>Why not? I wanted votes, not opinions. Opinions have been
>given in several other posts. Notice I didn't even give my
>opinion x(

Because my answer would be dependent on may aims for a particular season. If I was trying to run a full championship I would want prepared notes (mainly because of the time and cost issues). If I was running only a couple of events that I hadn't recced before then notes and recce would be my choice. If I was running only events that I had recced before (and therefore had notes for) then recce alone would be fine.

Adrian
 

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RE: Recce

>Stage notes (at national events) currently don't cost the
>organizers a significant amount (unless I misunderstand how
>the economics work). IIRC the Rocky notes were subsidized by
>one of the event sponsors, with the rest being paid by the
>competitors. The SCCA ProRally notes are (theoretically)
>fully paid for by the competitors.

Subsidised by 'sponsors' or by competitor fees doesn't matter ... Jemba notes still cost more than the total operating budget of a regional rally!
This year was a bit easier on Rocky as we were tweaking the 2003 notes, and not really changing the roads.
As an organiser, I seriously doubt that the cost of doing notes is being recovered by any organiser by fees alone, which means the general entry fee has to go up to offset the notes.(a mighty socialist idea)

I haven't said anything yet, but I did vote for Recce with no notes - mostly because of safety.
At the Cochrane Rally of the Ranchlands this year, we were recce/pace notes and offered a detailed tulip book. The event was a success, with almhost double the cars of the previous year's event with something like 9 novice cars in their first event ... not one car DNFed because of notes, and almost everyone ran their own pace notes ... 22 started, 19 finished the event, the 3 that didn't were co-driver sickness, broken transmission, and suspension failure.
At defi last year, the speeds were higher and the bad offs were in the regional pack that were not allowed to do recce.
BUT I look at Rocky and the Jemba notes, and see McGeer off BIG and Thomson (all by himself in N4) also off and rolled.
I have no question that the notes were not the problem and that perhaps over commitment to the notes played a role ...
Without a doubt, I think it is clear taht Recce is SAFER, and if you look at the moeny saved by fewer accidents, it should eventually be cheaper.
 

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RE: Recce

>>Stage notes (at national events) currently don't cost the
>>organizers a significant amount (unless I misunderstand how
>>the economics work). IIRC the Rocky notes were subsidized by
>>one of the event sponsors, with the rest being paid by the
>>competitors. The SCCA ProRally notes are (theoretically)
>>fully paid for by the competitors.
>
>Subsidised by 'sponsors' or by competitor fees doesn't
>matter ... Jemba notes still cost more than the total
>operating budget of a regional rally!
>This year was a bit easier on Rocky as we were tweaking the
>2003 notes, and not really changing the roads.
>As an organiser, I seriously doubt that the cost of doing
>notes is being recovered by any organiser by fees alone,
>which means the general entry fee has to go up to offset the
>notes.(a mighty socialist idea)

The SCCA notes are not part of the organizers' budget at all (except for providing routebook etc. to the note makers). The program is administered through the national office and is supposed to be self-sustaining from the fees charged to the competitors. There was a price increase this year to offset the reduced entry levels.

>I haven't said anything yet, but I did vote for Recce with
>no notes - mostly because of safety.
>At the Cochrane Rally of the Ranchlands this year, we were
>recce/pace notes and offered a detailed tulip book. The
>event was a success, with almhost double the cars of the
>previous year's event with something like 9 novice cars in
>their first event ... not one car DNFed because of notes,
>and almost everyone ran their own pace notes ... 22 started,
>19 finished the event, the 3 that didn't were co-driver
>sickness, broken transmission, and suspension failure.
>At defi last year, the speeds were higher and the bad offs
>were in the regional pack that were not allowed to do recce.
>BUT I look at Rocky and the Jemba notes, and see McGeer off
>BIG and Thomson (all by himself in N4) also off and rolled.

Tom said that he remembered the corner from previous years and treated as he would have with the old car. The new car was a bit faster than the old one, though...

>I have no question that the notes were not the problem and
>that perhaps over commitment to the notes played a role ...
>Without a doubt, I think it is clear taht Recce is SAFER,
>and if you look at the moeny saved by fewer accidents, it
>should eventually be cheaper.

True, although you should have seen the carnage at the T at Baie, despite the fact that people had two chances to see it before the rally... Admittedly, it was also the only rally that the Ontario Sweep Team has been to where they had NO business (everybody managed to at least limp to service).

Adrian
 
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