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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello Everyone,

Let's continue developing the "List" of vintage and classic cars considered important to the history of stage rallying in North America. Maybe we can organize them by Decade. Photo's?

Who can list the Saab's?
Cortina's?
Ford's?
MG's ?
Porsche 911 & 912
Etc., etc.


Rich Smith
 

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John Vanlandingham

'Winston', I can call you Winston, can't I, can I ask 'significant' to who?
Is my car significant? Last 96 in the history of the WORLD Rally Campionship series, Olympus WRC 1986.
or significant cause its the coolest car in NorthAmerican rallying period?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
RE: The

Hey John V.,

I've been referred to in far more unpleasant terms than "Winston" quite often. (But, it may take you 2 or 3 beers sometime to get the meaning across to me.):+

"Significant" to who is an excellent question. It's like beauty in the eye of the beholder. There is no rule book for it. But any stage rally car that actually ran in North America would be among the first on my list. Nobody I know needs a rule book to recognize a Historic Rally Car when they see it.

Rich Smith
 

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RE: The

I recommend that along with a photo, if available, people also provide information they believe makes their submission to the list 'significant'. then maybe we can all learn a little about the history of various 'Historic' rally cars.:p
 

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Terms of Reference

Oh what fun!

Can we start by defining the follwoing terms:

- Vintage ('60's? '70's?)
- Historic (pre-war? '50's?)
- Significant (ex-Championship/Event winners? Technical milestones?)

I, for one, am starting to think that the so-called "Vintage" cars of the '50s and '60's are verging on "Historic" and the so-called "Modern" cars of the late '70's/early '80's are now prime candidates for "Vintage" -- especially considering that it's been almost 20 years since 4wd cars took the world by storm!!

Mostly, I'd like to see due consideration of the fact that some of the new generation of rally enthusiasts (say, someone in their 20's) may consider cars of their youth to be "Vintage". Every generation has it's own affinity for such things and I don't want to see rallying bogged down by a quaint idea of what's Vintage/Historic/Significant, and what's not.

Oh, and just to be clear: my personal bias comes from the fact that for three years I've been co-driving in a "historically significant", ex-factory, 1980 Toyota Corolla with period performance race and rally bits.

Cheers,

Bill
 

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RE: Terms of Reference

From Merriam-Webster's website (www.m-w.com/dictionary)

Main Entry: his·tor·ic
Pronunciation: hi-'stor-ik, -'stär-
Function: adjective
Date: 1607
: HISTORICAL: as a : famous or important in history <historic battlefields> b : having great and lasting importance <an historic occasion> c : known or established in the past <historic interest rates> d : dating from or preserved from a past time or culture <historic buildings> <historic artifacts>

Main Entry: vintage
Function: adjective
Date: 1601
1 of wine : of, relating to, or produced in a particular vintage
2 : of old, recognized, and enduring interest, importance, or quality : CLASSIC
3 a : dating from the past : OLD b : OUTMODED, OLD-FASHIONED
4 : of the best and most characteristic -- used with a proper noun <vintage Shaw: a wise and winning comedy -- Time>

I think that these terms can be used interchangably for what we are looking for here. I think any of the definitions would make a car suitable for the list (with the exception of the first "vintage" definition), especially Historic (c) and (d) and vintage (4). I'm not trying to re-write the SCCA definition of 'historic'. I think these definitions open the list to a lot of cars, including your 1980 Toyota. So tell us about it.;-)
 

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RE: The

Rich:

Here is my list of the most significant North American rally cars. I have listed my three top cars from each of the last five decades. I have not included European cars that were here for World Championship events (POR, Rideau Lakes, Criterium, Olympus) such as the Lancia Stratos, Fiat Abarth, Ford Escort, Lancia Delta, etc. since they were here for essentially one event and then went home.

1960s:

1) Klaus Ross's Volvo Canadian - Klaus was a very fast driver. Won two consecutive Shell 4000 Rallies (1964/1965). Volvo 120 series was a very popular rally car which could be rallied successfully straight out of the showroom with little preparation.
2) Scott Harvey's Plymouth Barracuda - won 1968 Shell 4000 in a beautifully prepared domestic car.
3) John Buffum's Porsche 911 - when I saw how fast this car was at the 1969 POR, I knew we had seen the start of a new level of rally car preparation.

1970s:

1) Gene Henderson's Jeep Wagoneer - his win on the 1972 POR showed what was possible with 4wd and what the future held for rally cars.
2) Jean-Paul Perusse's Fiat 128 - proof that the biggest piece of crap on the road could be turned into an unbeatable rally car in the winter and an excellent rally car in the summer.
3) John Buffum's Ford Escort(s) - once again John showed what could be done by driving well prepared European rally cars very fast.

1980s:

1) John Buffum's Audi Quattro Coupe - everyone was blown away by a combination of 4wd technnology, good preparation and a fast driver.
2) Rod Millen's 4WD Mazda RX7 - an incredible technical response to Buffum's Audi.
3) Taisto Heinonen's Toyota Corolla - drop a 250 hp engine and parts from TTE into a Corolla and drive it fast - a sure recipe for success.

1990s:

1) Frank Sprongl's Audi Quattro - a fast driver with proven 1980s technology was able to win a lot of events for a long time in this car.
2) John Buffum's 4WD Hyundai - an impressive matching of modern 4wd components with a rather mundane car to produce impressive results in the hand of a number of different drivers.
3) Whoever showed up with the first Mitsubishi Lancer Evo - you changed the face of North American rallying.

2000s:

1) Mark Lovell's Prodrive Subaru WRC - it put things into perspective.
2) John Buffum's new Hyundai Tiburon (as seen at CT) - John just may be able to beat Prodrive and show that North American rallying is finally comming of age. Note that Buffum's cars made my list in each of the past five decades!
3) Mike's Stud Bug - being cute has to count for something (not you Mike, the car).

Doug Woods
 

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RE: The

>3) Whoever showed up with the first Mitsubishi Lancer Evo -
>you changed the face of North American rallying.

Wasn't Henry Joy's Evo III the first one in the US? I think it might have been.

Philip J. Boer
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RE: The

Rich:

I'll start in the late 70's/early 80's:

1. Anything Buffum drove, including the TR-8;

2. Millen's RX-7(s);

3.The "Production" Class Corolla GTS--especially in Canada;

4.Volvo Turbos/Saab 99;

5. Mopars--Omni/Shelby Turbos;

6. VW GTI;

7.Mazda 323 GTX;

8. Mitsubishi Eclipse/Eagal Talon;

9. Subaru Legacies;

10 Carl's Escort Cosworth;

11. EVO (s)

12. WRC/ new Subies.
 

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RE: The

Henry Joy's and David Summerbell were probably the first Evo's, But the Evo craze began (correct me if I am wrong)after Garen Shrader bought his from Geoff Argyle, which paved the way for people importing RHD Evo's form New Zealand.
Don't forget to mention Carl Merrils Escorts, a beacon of car Prep and latest technology at the time.
 

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I'm sure it is just because of when I started paying attention but there is a group of cars that I think of as newer than "vintage" or "classic", but not modern. Call them "old school", if you want. I also think that "significant" might include the cars that got a lot of people started in rallying during this period (late '70s, early '80s). The list should include the Mazda RX2/RX3, the Dodge (Japanese) Colts, the Datsun 510, and the Chrysler K-cars - in all of their glorious derivatives. How many people drove one of these four types of car at some point?

Kirk
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
My personal favorite group!

>The list should include the Mazda RX3, the Dodge (Japanese)
>Colts, the Datsun 510, .... How many people drove one of
>these four types of car at some point?<

Yes, yes! This is still favorite group! :p

DODGE COLT: Scott Harvey, Sr. wrote the Rally Prep book published by Dodge (Very Escortesque) . This group includes '72-'73 Dodge Colt(Mitsu.Lancer), '74-'76 Dodge Colt/Chrysler Cricket(Mitsu.Gallant), '77-78 Dodge Colt & '76-'81 Ply.Arrow (Mitsu.Lancer/Celeste). Full rally support to private owners from Mitsubishi thru about '81, with perf. engine and "Safari" suspension available from your local Dodge dealer. Always among the most affordable because of interchangeable 1.6L, 2.0L, and 2.6L engines.

DATSUN 510: Legendary racing potential adapted beautifully for stage rallying. All the race goodies came over with it to rallying. PL 510 chassis may have been a little stronger, but sacrificed tune-ability of independant rear suspension. Parts from many other Datsun's were bolt-on interchangeable. A well prepared 510 boldly driven is always a great competitor.

MAZDA RX3: Fastest of the group with developed 13B engine and full rally preparation. Stripped down to about 1700 lbs. Occasionally seen with 5-link rear end. Just ask Dave Clark or Greg & Lynn Lund about these babies. My vote for best RX3 driver (and crowd pleaser) goes to Vance Walker in the Pacific Northwest.

Rich Smith
 

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RE: My personal favorite group!

This probably isn't the place for it but I could share my bawdy Vance Walker limerick... I came up with it over (several) beers at the awards banquet, at the divisional in Oregon where he beat Todd Hartmann and I.

:)

Kirk
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
RE: Limerick!

Yes!

I'd love to read your Vance Walker limerick. Please post it or send it to me off-line, as you think best. (But, should I have a couple of brewski's before reading it to get the full benifit?) :)

Thanks,
Rich Smith
 

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RE: The

Quoting >Doug Woods
>1980s:
>
>3) Taisto Heinonen's Toyota Corolla - drop a 250 hp engine
>and parts from TTE into a Corolla and drive it fast - a sure
>recipe for success.

Yup! This is the car I was referring to above. We've been campaigning it in Club/Regional events around the PNW and Western Canada for the past two years. I can safely say that the car is waay more capable than the current crew!

It seems that Taisto built several Toyotas during his time, most of them based on the Celica platform. Sometime during '79/'80, Toyota introduced a new body style to the Corolla family and had Taisto build up a lift back variant for rallying.

This car was successfully campaigned by Taisto and Tom Burgess, securing the 1980 Canadian Championship for Toyota - against the Datsun 510 of Randy Black, no doubt, but I'm not the one to confirm the details of this period of history...

Cheers,

Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
RE: Baja Saab

Hey Rob,

What a great piece of North American history! Do you still run your 1971? Thank you very much for posting.

Mexico has a great Rally heritage. On vacation in about 1955, my father and I drove 3/4 of the way down Baja in 1947 Oldsmobile. Our neighbor drove a 1938 Chevy. That trip is still one of my fondest memories, and still gives be great respect for those who rally there.

I understand that some of the CRS guys in California still cross the border to rally in Mexico. "Hey, Lon Peterson or Bill Gutzman. Are ya listenin?"

Thanks again,
Rich Smith
 

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RE: The

>
>>3) Whoever showed up with the first Mitsubishi Lancer Evo -
>>you changed the face of North American rallying.
>
>Wasn't Henry Joy's Evo III the first one in the US? I think
>it might have been.
>
>Philip J. Boer
>[email protected]

YES!! 1996 I believe. Summerbell was 1998.
 

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Rienzi,
Is your 96 one of the team Baja cars or one of the orange "t-Cars"? For those who aren't familiar the "t-cars" wre factory rally chassis cars with reinforced suspension pickups and no undercoating.
They were sold in 1970 and 1971 with stock drivelines to met emission rules. Saab USA sold them without warranty due to "expected use."
Feel free to contact me off the list.

Bruce Beauvais
de KA8VTK






























































Bruce Beauvais

de KA8VTK
 

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Thanks for the encouragement. The car that I'm currently rallying is a 1968, and the 1971 T-car that I acquired about a year ago had been traded back to a dealer in Virginia by a Sugar Daddy who had bought it new for his Crunch.

The latter put about 35,000 miles on it, then got rear-ended. Unfortunately a "body shop" got hold of it and did some bad bondo and a bad respray with the wrong orange, before Crunch lost interest --- mid-seventies anybody who was anybody had to be seen in a Portia or BMW.

I've got it 90% disassembled (near perfect interior!) and it's awaiting restoration. Will be a good candidate for a Vintage Production class in maybe ten more years...
 
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