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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Edited in a futile attempt to communicate more clearly.

While pondering the Ojibwe results, I wondered what others thought of the fact that the top finshers in Club were also top finishers in Pro. If the same people are at the top of each, do we need to somehow change the line between Club and Pro for better separation? Do you feel the line between Pro and Club is drawn in the right place? Or perhaps you think there should be no line, and we should just call it all "PRORally" again?

Here's an idea for more logical separation IMHO. It seems to me that a good place to draw the line between Pro and Club would be based on what tools/advantages are given to a group of drivers. I'm thinking that the use of stage notes would be a more logical break point between Pro and Club than what we have now. So in addition to the current requirements for a Pro licsense, I'd add:

-Notes are only available to the ProRally competitors. If you can afford to try notes, you can easily also afford a Pro license.

-No dual entries allowed at events (this change would be needed if notes were removed from Club events). You could still enter different events as Pro or Club throughout the year, but you'd have to pick Pro or Club at each event. Alternatively, I suppose dual entries could still be allowed (but since they would not be able to use notes, not many would do it).

-Every Pro would automatically get notes for each Pro event entered. Cost of notes would be included in the Pro liscense fee, snaction fee, or entry fee of Pro events.

In summary use of notes would become the divider between Club and Pro. This has a additional secondary benefit of reducing the cost required to compete for a Club championship (since no notes will need to be purchased).


A related but minor issue is the extra dust minute given to only the top cars. Do people really think that cars in the back of the pack aren't pushing their own personal limits and taking as many chances as the top cars? If anything, I'd say the less experienced drivers are more likely than the top Pros to crash in low visibility conditions. I think it would be more fair to give this extra minute to all Pros (or none at all).

Thoughts?

Jim Cox
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While it maybe true that you "would be pissed" you would be much better at reading the road and learning how to drive fast when you don't know what is ahead!!!!

Then when you do get to use notes you would be much faster.

I didn't get to use notes for the first 15 years of driving a rally car and I am not pissed!!!!!

Steve
 

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The Scorpion King
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Generally, I think this is an excellent idea. The only two problems that I could potentially see are that the gap between Pro and Club cars always seemed to be an excuse for spectators to start walking in the road. This could potentially screw all the Club competitors out of the opportunity to run the stage with the new spectator rules. The other is that some ProRally organizers need the extra money from dual entrants to break even or just reduce their losses.

Personally, I have always found the idea of two teams competing in the same event, one with stage notes and one with a route book, unreasonable.

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John
 

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The Scorpion King
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>I'd be faster still If I had tons of early experience
>creating and reading proper pacenotes...
>
>
>Petter Solberg _started_ with Pace Notes...

In my opinion, a driver with genuine talent and some education ought to be able to achieve Seed 5 in even a (reliable) slow car in about 6 events. In the grand scheme of things, that's not a lot of time.

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John
 

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Why not get rid of both PRO and Club names and just call it "Stage rallying" because that's what it is. "PRO" in whatever shape or form is a total misnomer and just how many of us out there are members of a "Club"? I should know at my age that anything that simple just doesn't make sense! Combining both, wouldn't that bring down the costs of "Pro" and maybe slightly increase the cost of "Club"? I'm all for simplifying things.
 

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Before I start: Organizers rock and I love the events they put on for us.

I see it like this. I don't see the difference between the two. Our teams just aren't that "pro".

Do you want to run 1 long clubrally or 2 little clubrallies? Without any real professionals (Does Lauchlin get a check from CPD?) and with many of the top teams running both anyway is there really a difference? Check out the entries for the 04 Snow and Drift Clubrallies if you don't agree. Last weekend there was a club driver who was setting low 90s speedrankings in a nearly stock Golf without notes. I think our Pro events miss the luster of the last couple of years and our club events are better than they used to be.

I think the best thing for the sport at this point in time would be an affordable spec class or something similar to Group F in Finland.
 

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R3 Slippy
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It was easier to draw that line before the SCCA came in and messed with the name of the series. By definition, there are few, if any, "Pro" rally teams competing.

I still revert back to the old definitions, and see it as "club" meaning divisional, and "pro" meaning national. By that definition, ClubRally is for those who can't travel across country to all the races.

I've been on both sides of this issue. I've run Club in a pretty modest car, and was sick of getting beat by dual-entry Pro guys in good equipment. Now that I'm lucky enough to have better equipment, I still want to be able to compete in a Championship without having to travel cross-country.

Chris Gilligan
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I thought the primary purpose of a dual entry was to cover the pro teams backside in the event of a wreck on the first day of a two day competition. If you have a dual entry and wreck on the first day of a two day event, then you can compete on the second day in the club portion of the rally if your car can be put back together. This ensures that you do not drive all the way to a rally just to run one stage.

In my opinion if you make it through the first day of the pro event than you should not be scored in the club rally on the second day. The dual entry is like buying insurance to run the second day in the event of an off that is fixable.

IMHO

Bob Wall
 

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<<<Generally, I think this is an excellent idea. The only two problems that I could potentially see are that the gap between Pro and Club cars always seemed to be an excuse for spectators to start walking in the road. >>>

If they were combined, wouldn't the faster "Club" guys be mixing it with the "PRO" guys?
 

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Personally for me I think that stage notes should be a choice that teams should be allowed to make for themselves at any seed. Wit hthe advent of Stage notes I personally feel that route book quality (at leaset on the left coast) has deteriorated considerably since most are using notes and I think that beyond the arguement of who should and should not use notes this is dangerous. Stage notes should be a choice period, people who choose not to run notes that is your decision but do not complain about being at a disadvantage. Now having actually done a two pass Recce recently and had to rally to my notes from scratch I think that this is the way to go but that is another debate, I really felt confident in my own notes and I htink I learned alot from the experience. Now to discuss the original line between club and Pro I think that there is no line whatsoever. I think that there should be one national license and there should be National and Club or regional level events. This way Championship level events are afforded their proper elevated status, and regional level events do not have to be branded with the designation as club. I feel that labeling things as "club" events and drivers is a huge disservice to the competitors and organizers since the name implies an amateur level of competition and organization. As a business owner if an organizer was to come to me with a "club Rally" I would not be as inclined to sponsor the event (though we did sponsor Treeline this year) as I would a "regional" or "national" event. Semantics and perception are everything and when organizers and drivers at all levels are trying to fins sponsors and attract media and fan attention why start them out with a handicap? Now as far as dual events if yo uare running on the same roads with the same amount of stage miles there should be no difference for competitors. As a spectator I have a hard time understanding why when I look at the results a competitor that I just watched driving very well does not show up in the standings. With the current set up it causes confusion and much like Cricket and other sports that have confusing rules if a fan cannot understand what is going on then they usually do not stick around too long. In summary:

1. One type of license and no restrictions on Stage Notes
2. Eleiminate the term "club rally" and replace with "Regional"
3. Replace Pro Rally (believe me from a marketing standpoint there is no equity in the name Pro rally) with "national Championship rally" or "national"
4. Find a manufacturer that will work wit hthe SCCA or Nasa or whomever and build a one make championship that is affordable (cap car cost 20-25k) and 2WD with start money and contingency as well as a tow fund. Race a Western Regional and eastern regional and have one event (like 100 acre woods) in the middle for a shoot out.

My peronal and simple 4 steps to vastly improving US rally, note that only one of the 4 things would cost a dime.
 

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Marketing through Motorsports
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Re dual entries

>I've been on both sides of this issue. I've run Club in a
>pretty modest car, and was sick of getting beat by
>dual-entry Pro guys in good equipment.

After Rim, Leon and I have stopped dual-entering except when necessary (more on that in a moment). We're still clubbies at heart, he's still paying (mostly) his own way like clubbies, and the car is still wearing clubbie numbers with pride, but we're racing for national titles now. We don't want to skew the points racing in their divisional championships. (It's probably too late for SoPac this year.)

This is not to say that we (I) won't continue to run club-only events when feasible: seat time is seat time, fun is fun, and entry fees for the organizers are entry fees for the organizers.

We dual-entered Maine because there was no Saturday registration. It was an insurance policy against a Friday DNF. After traveling diagonally across the country, we wanted to be able to restart Saturday if the car and crew were up to it. We were still running on Saturday morning, thus we quietly withdrew from the club side.

A second point that hasn't been mentioned, however, is possible hardship to organizers: a dual-entry brings in a bigger entry fee than a Pro-only or club-only entry.

There are no easy answers to these questions, or we'd have already answered them.

[hr]

[p align=right]John Dillon
John @ WidgetRacing.com
www.WidgetRacing.com
 

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> <<<Generally, I think this is an excellent idea. The only
>two problems that I could potentially see are that the gap
>between Pro and Club cars always seemed to be an excuse for
>spectators to start walking in the road. >>>
>
>If they were combined, wouldn't the faster "Club" guys be
>mixing it with the "PRO" guys?


You guys neeed to get out more. There has been no Club/Pro "gap" for several years now. The faster Club guys are indeed mixing it up with the Pros in combined events. The overall start orders are determined mostly by speed factor, not by which event you've entered.

The rationale for dual entries in combined events was that the organizers needed the extra money to put on the event at all...there's no reason they HAVE to allow it - it's organizer option. For a few years, we didn't need the extra cash, and some events didn't allow dual entries...now the fields are down, prices are up and money is tight once more.

There is no explicit provision in the rules for (or against) combined events...let alone dual entries.

Bruce
 

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>Chris divisional would be another great name to replace club
>with.
Ain't any difference except the size of the bills, THAT THE RESULTS Print out can't take care of.

EVERYBODY should go the full distance (we all need practice---------the more the better, and for too mant their only practice is ON EVENTS so more more more!)

Stage rally.
Performance Rally.
Then when its a big long 125 mile event call in a Coefficient 6,
more than 160 stage miles coeff. 10 or something, and if it is a single venue stage run three times a coeff 1, and a rallycross run in a rally car, take points away!

This has ALWAYS been the case that there is no clear or logical line between the classifications since there was a split between sthe howlingly funnily named "pro" and the old "divisional" events.

At least in the Northwest there has always been "Divisional" entries faster than the bulk of the so called 'Pro' teams, and there were often Divisional guys who chose not to enter the National for the simple fact that they had no budget, time or reasons to even imagine travelling to events 1000 or 1500 miles away who were faster OVERALL than the stage winners in the "Pro" classes, at least in the early 90s.
Vern Johnson, Grant Whiting, John Sparks, and even me were often absent from the weekends results in the National results, but if you added the times up of the two divisionals you'd see that their times would have placed them in the top 8 or better still for Vern and Grant.

It was not the level of buget or even preparation which the results should be showing but the level of driving skill.



ONE BIG CLASS, ONE BIG EVENT.

Full distance to all the Entrants!







John "Bread and Peace" Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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>2. Eleiminate the term "club rally" and replace with
>"Regional"
>3. Replace Pro Rally (believe me from a marketing standpoint
>there is no equity in the name Pro rally) with "national
>Championship rally" or "national"


So - Kinda like we have it in good old Canada - eh?:)
 

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RE: Re dual entries

Don't forget about the benefit to the teams doing dual entries. It becomes two events. Eg. 3rd Place Sno Drift Pro Rally, 2nd Place Sno Club Rally, 1st Place Drift Club Rally. Now wouldn't that sound better to a potential sponsor than simply 3rd place in the Pro event?
 

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RE: Re dual entries

if that sounds better what about the local guy int the club rally that finished 4th in the club rally behind 3 "pro" teams. wouldn't it sound better if he could say 1st palce in club rally ________?
 
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