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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Drivers championships that are in Open class or Group N or any other class that requires a ton of money to get a competitive car are not really drivers championships. If we wanted to really have a true drivers championship the championship class should be what is most affordable. This would avoid drivers being priced out from the start. It would also stop many people from wasting tens of thousands of dollars.
 

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>Drivers championships that are in Open class or Group N or
>any other class that requires a ton of money to get a
>competitive car are not really drivers championships. If we
>wanted to really have a true drivers championship the
>championship class should be what is most affordable. This
>would avoid drivers being priced out from the start. It
>would also stop many people from wasting tens of thousands
>of dollars.

Well you've been listening!

Make the turbo AWD class (all lumped together and let guys build what they want: Current Homologated N4, old PGT no restrictor on those old tiny turbo DSM things, Old Open @ 40mm, GpA, expired GpA and N, who cares, if guys believe that a total GpN package firs their budget and driving style, let THEM build it to that spec.) a class for MFG points only.
We wouldn't want top ban the cars but nothing is proved by making a show which can so easily be 'bought'.

Make it an INCENTIVE to do the class for the Crown (the title) of "National Champion" and make that a class where mechanical aids MASKS the role that the driver in the total equation of car/driver/tires/spec/tactics/skill.

Plenty of guys will stay in their turbo 4wd cars cause the have them or because in their heart of hearts they suspect or know they coould never have a good result ion a 2wd car, so fine let them.

But real competitors, real racers, would be scrambling to get into a class which shows MORE CLEARLY that their results comes from
THEIR DRIVING.

And a side benefit, eventually anyway, would be some good fights and hard driving, better excitement than the "it looks like a transit" which even current competitors admit is the case currently.

That's the beauty of 2wd.







John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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>>But real competitors, real racers, would be scrambling to
>>get into a class which shows MORE CLEARLY that their results
>>comes from
>>THEIR DRIVING.
>
>Yes, you're right John, this year's champ hasn't really
>shown much talent, he has just a really fast Group N car.
>
>http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Smart ass. 8(
You've watched.
People here who have watched conceded that aside from Pat, and a couple of others the show IS NOT very exciting, and between 4th and 15th is BORING.
The British and Paasonen _were_ a grand-daddy step above and drove clearly harder, and obviously better.

They're gone.
One man doesn't make a show.

And the point was missed: Pat has full importer support, the let his bring home points for his employer, Manufacturer points.





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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>People here who have watched conceded that aside from Pat,
>and a couple of others the show IS NOT very exciting, and
>between 4th and 15th is BORING.

Yup. That SRT-4 puts me to sleep. Especially from the inside.
 

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Although seeing Dougie average 55 mph on course withonly three wheels at OTPR this last time around...

That was impressive!

Scott
------
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Wouldn't it be a better championship if there were more than a handful of drivers who actually had the chance to race against Pat and Doug in somewhat equal cars?

You have to admit, the trophies for our national champoinships should be trailer hitches mounted on plaques. It's impossible to dispute. What is our sport supposed to be trying to measure anyway? Driving. If you can't make the teams richer, the financial barriers to success need to be removed. Until this happens we're still a bunch of Spoiled Children Crashing Automobiles.

Any serious model for the growth of the sport needs to focus on development of the driving talent because we don't have it. Even worse, most of the driving talent is either letting their bank accounts recover, permanently gone, or not racing for the Open class champoinship. I hope that Rally America sees this.
 

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Pat did not have support from Subaru for the SCCA championship, only CARS.

And there are plenty of other exciting drivers, pretty much the top 6-8 AWD cars and pretty much all of the 2WD cars.

I do actually agree with your point, and this is why I am in favor of more production based classes and championships, that take prep-level (and $$$) out of the equation, to be at what Pat calls the sharp edge.

Glenn
 

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A few points to keep in mind:

- The IRL does not race with formula Vees. The Nextel Cup is not run in limited late models. Speed World Challenge doesn't run showroom stock cars. ALMS doesn't race in D-sports cars.

- There seems to be some misconception out there that open or Grn cars are pathetically easy to drive. While obviously it would be easier to obtain a .90 SF (for example) in a WRX than in a GTI, that doesn't necessarily mean that running that WRX at it's limit is easy. Things happen much quicker, and limits are pushed farther. The handling is more complicated. There is nothing easy about driving an awd car at 10/10.

- I don't see a bunch of open or Grn drivers out there thumping their chests because they beat up some p class cars. No matter how many people they beat, most still end up grumbling because Pat smoked em. In other words, we don't like to get beat either.

- Hardly any 2wd cars run the entire championship currently, most contenders are in awd, which leads me to believe if we changed the championship class it would still be the same guys racing for the trophy. In other words, if someone can't afford to run the championship in awd, but they can in 2wd, why aren't they doing it already?

- With the new restrictor rules in open, look for Gr5 overall win next season, most likely at Pikes Peak. At some point you can trump the awd advantage.

Jake, I understand your frustration. You've got the talent, you've got the desire, but you don't have the resources. But dropping the championship car spec still isn't going to change the fact that you can't afford to enter 9 rallies, tow to both coasts, and burn up 75 tires a year. A more sensible approach is to build up the series so that it has exposure and sponsorship. Then use their money to run your championship in whatever you sponsor tells you to drive.

John, if you ever actually SHOWED UP at a rally, maybe you could comment intelligently on the level of driving currently being displayed. But until then your opinions are relegated to the level of the internet/playstation jockeys. Please stop wasting our time with your uninformed blather. While you talk endlessly about utopian rally nirvana, the rest of us (like Jake, and DCH, and Mad Mike for example) are actually going to events, giving it our all, and trying to make a difference in the real world. It's time you started walking the walk instead of just talking the talk. If you can do it better, enter a race and show us. No, no, no, don't give any crap about your wife being pregnant, or you did this 20 years ago, that's #####. The rest of us have extenuating circumstances as well, yet we still get to the races. Put up or shut up, John.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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>A few points to keep in mind:
>
>- The IRL does not race with formula Vees. The Nextel Cup
>is not run in limited late models. Speed World Challenge
>doesn't run showroom stock cars. ALMS doesn't race in
>D-sports cars.

The IRL sucks. Nextel Cup technology (or lack thereof) costs so little compared to the amount brought in by sponsors that its ridiculous (opposite model from us)...and they ain't THAT much more of a car than a late model. Speed World Challenge is SUPPOSED to be running in production based cars and the Touring Car division surely is...they're less developed than some G2 cars...and then there are no turbos allowed...(this might change as they get 4 nickels and a stick of gum from a manufacturer). Until Caddy came along, even the GT stuff was production based. I think GM had 5 nickels, tho. ALMS is Spoiled Children yadda yadda if I've ever seen it.

>
>- There seems to be some misconception out there that open
>or Grn cars are pathetically easy to drive. While obviously
>it would be easier to obtain a .90 SF (for example) in a WRX
>than in a GTI, that doesn't necessarily mean that running
>that WRX at it's limit is easy.

Agreed. Just don't see a LOT of them running at their limit. Do you? I see Pat and Mark and Shane and Seamus and some others...can't wait to see what Matt Johnson does once he gets accustomed to the car.

>Things happen much quicker,
>and limits are pushed farther. The handling is more
>complicated. There is nothing easy about driving an awd car
>at 10/10.

10/10 of the driver's ability? ...or the car's?

>
>- I don't see a bunch of open or Grn drivers out there
>thumping their chests because they beat up some p class
>cars. No matter how many people they beat, most still end
>up grumbling because Pat smoked em. In other words, we don't
>like to get beat either.
>
>- Hardly any 2wd cars run the entire championship currently,
>most contenders are in awd, which leads me to believe if we
>changed the championship class it would still be the same
>guys racing for the trophy. In other words, if someone
>can't afford to run the championship in awd, but they can in
>2wd, why aren't they doing it already?

Cuz there is very little incentive. In other countries every class winner gets recognition, champagne sprays, etc. and the class win means something. You can be in the battle of your life for a championship over here and nobody cares much unless you're in the top class. I disagree with you. I think a LOT of folks WOULD come play for a season if 2wd were the championship class. Moreover, it would be way easier to sell it to new manufacturers, too. Only two companies sell 4wd cars suitable for rallying. One left. The other scaled back. Many of the rest won't get involved at the top end of the sport because (and I quote) they "don't have a 4wd turbo small car on the showroom to sell...but if 2wd were the top class..."

>
>- With the new restrictor rules in open, look for Gr5
>overall win next season, most likely at Pikes Peak. At some
>point you can trump the awd advantage.

Wouldn't that be great!

>
>Jake, I understand your frustration. You've got the talent,
>you've got the desire, but you don't have the resources.
>But dropping the championship car spec still isn't going to
>change the fact that you can't afford to enter 9 rallies,
>tow to both coasts, and burn up 75 tires a year. A more
>sensible approach is to build up the series so that it has
>exposure and sponsorship. Then use their money to run your
>championship in whatever you sponsor tells you to drive.
>

He won't get a sponsor. Cuz neither Subaru nor Mitsubishi will hire him, he doesn't work for Dodge, and I can't afford to hire him myself.

Quote from Mazda: "Well we don't want to do what Hyundai did...rally a car that we don't intend to duplicate on the showroom floor."

I'm just glad they felt good supporting a car in one of the "other" classes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Dennis you bring up some good points and I'm glad you are willing to discuss.

I want to go on the record that I don't have anything against people in nice AWDTurbo cars.

>A few points to keep in mind:
>
>- The IRL does not race with formula Vees. The Nextel Cup
>is not run in limited late models. Speed World Challenge
>doesn't run showroom stock cars. ALMS doesn't race in
>D-sports cars.

Look at the feeder systems they have to develop talent. We need something like this and we need a structure.

>- Hardly any 2wd cars run the entire championship currently,
>most contenders are in awd, which leads me to believe if we
>changed the championship class it would still be the same
>guys racing for the trophy. In other words, if someone
>can't afford to run the championship in awd, but they can in
>2wd, why aren't they doing it already?

Some folks probably can't afford to race the whole series in an AWDTurbo car. The also probably don't want to tow across the country if there might not be any other national cars to race in their 2wd class.

How many good drivers do you know who have quit in the last 5 years? Or how many people are taking time out to recover financially. I know plenty.

>Jake, I understand your frustration.

As a competitor I'm happy to say that the chip on my shoulder is pretty much gone. I am in a good place with rally. It feels really good to finally be there. It's almost like some new age crap or something.

As a fan of the sport I am very frustrated however. I think we need to build a solid foundations before we put up the walls. Look at how Mathew Johnson built his effort from the ground up. He's probably the most talented driver out there. He finished top 10 in his li'l Golf in POR 2002. The top ten was full of big guns too.

To understand JV just take his comments, summarize them, erase all nonrally content (personal stuff, straying from topic, etc.) and take in the ideas like it's just text on a page. He's usually dead on right and it took me a while to realize that. His knowledge and experiences are completely unique among we yanks. So is his willingness to help anyone at the drop of a hat. If I were to start over I would have him build me a car.
 
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