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Retired Rally Photographer
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This is an unadulterated nonsese Shindle has been spewing for years ......Our notes have been very well received by
competitors who used them.
No worries Ivan. These roads were the easiest to drive that I think I have ever been on. Very predictable and straightforward. No gotchas. All of them only made safer with notes. Trickiest part is the corner on Tempaloni (sp?), and even if you know about that, it still is slippy and unpredictable.

I myself have no complaints other than the roads were too cold and they weren't giving away free steaks!

I have been to all the RNY's and this one was head & shoulders above the rest. Kudos to a job well done.
 

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Dirt surfer
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Lets all whimper towards pacenotes. Seems like to most here it would break banks.
Fine, go ahead and run blind on tulips. Have a blast. Far as I know, there's nothing stopping anybody from doing exactly that.

Many others are quite happy working hard on developing the skills to recce stages correctly, write good notes and drive like holy hell with a better margin for not getting bit by the gotchas.

now, back on topic...

this whole long thread seems to be heading toward some sort of consensus that tarmac speeds tend to be crazy fast on typical normal-people roads in the US, so some sort of speed control devices are popular with the organizers. Good notes help a lot to minimize the number of "beachball" excursions. And that lmost everybody in the US rally scene still has a lot to learn about tarmac rally, which leads to my next point...

it's interesting that we haven't heard much from the most experienced bunch of tarmac drivers on this side of the pond...the lads from Emerald Isle, whaddya think about all this?
 

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We went off on SS4 two corners after a chicane, this was not caused by the notes, it was caused by car 8 stopped half on the road and half off with NO TRIANGLES OUT. We slid into the snow and hit a dry stone wall.

Ivor Wigham
Car 11 Rally NY.
Been there, done that, Ivor. Next time we speak in person, we can swap stories on crashing when someone else does not put out triangles (or not where they can be seen). That's beyond frustrating. Sorry it happened.

Regards,
Mark B.
 

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859 Posts
Governing bodies should impose heavy fines on safety issues like that! Ive seen this type of thing as a spectator several times.
I ve also experienced similar situations in my so far 2 race rally career already. Luckily we were slow enough not to crash.

Oscar
 

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R6 L6 R6< 800
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200 Posts
Interesting discussion and points of view.
Getting back to the speed issue, and I'm most familiar with the CARS average speed rule, I do have an issue with the use of average speeds. I can't recall anyone crashing severely because of an average speed. I believe that the maximum speed is a more appropriate measurement to use. I recall reading in the UK rules, I think, that chicanes were to be placed in areas where the anticipated maximum speed exceeded 100mph.
If a theoretical stage had 15 miles of very tight twisty road where one couldn't average more than 35 mph and then finished with a 2 mile straight into a blind crest into an off camber hairpin with rocks and trees on both sides, the resulting crash at that point would be pretty devastating. Do we take comfort that the average speed was around 38 so no one could have any real trouble?
I always look at arguements using averages by comparing it to being impossible to drown in a lake where the average depth is only one foot.
I believe chicanes should be placed to control the maximum speed, not the average. I could also add - what do I know? I haven't done RNY. I do know that organizing anything is largely a thankless job which often goes unappreciated. Keep up the progress Olga and Ivan. I'll get there some day.
Cheers,
Peter
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #66 ·
it was caused by car 8 stopped half on the road and half off with NO TRIANGLES OUT.
Was it because they weren't following procedure or because they had just picked them up and were getting going again or had just stopped?

Possibly another issue of events not being part of a sanctioning body to enforce and punish procedure infractions.

Sux DNFing but if they did follow procedure, then its just part of the game.
 

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codriveur
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Was it because they weren't following procedure or because they had just picked them up and were getting going again or had just stopped?

Possibly another issue of events not being part of a sanctioning body to enforce and punish procedure infractions.

Sux DNFing but if they did follow procedure, then its just part of the game.
I recieved no inquiry, and I stopped by and talked to Ivor in service to see if they were ok and if he needed anything as there where a few other teams with Evo parts in the rally as I would have tried to hook him up. Nothing was said about the non-compliance to the rules by the other team. If something was I would have brought it to the USRC Stewards.
 

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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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Nothing was said about the non-compliance to the rules by the other team.
Last time I checked (6-12 months ago?) the FIA rules on triangle placement and number were pretty vague. With no explicit placement and no explicit penalty, under the current atmosphere in America, it would be hard to make a triangle-related penalty stick under straight FIA rules.

Cheers,
Anders
 

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Road books are for transits.
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It would be good to have those guys that went off with the Civic comment on what really happened, but I'm not sure if they frequent this forum or if they should really go thru what happened again...First thing that I do when I have a serious accident is to erase it from my mind immediately and they should too!
I remember seeing the car upside down for a brief second (on the third run of that stage), but then again it was quite a fast section, if I recall correctly a L5-over crest or over a bump or something, I remember we lifted all 4 wheels or at least the inside ones, then after about 100 meters the Civic was there, on the inside ditch upside down. It wasn't a pretty sight. They must have lifted off at the crest and lost control when landed and barrel rolled down the road. From the pictures seems like they were on a DOT street tire and seems to me like those would start fading after couple miles and the grip become "greasy".
Also I'm not quite sure if they did run the recce and if those guys were at their first event. Perhaps Bernie knows that.
If that's the case, maybe the lack of experience caused this accident? Really hard to say, just assuming here.
Should it be true that they were on their first event, the car was the right one, I mean it doesn't get any slower than a P car.
Perhaps they were pushing more than their experience allowed to?
I remember that car showed up late at the ceremonial start. Maybe those guys arrived late and missed the recce completely?
You CAN'T afford to start an event like last weekends without doing the recce. It's suicidal. You either do the recce or back the hell off during the Rally.
The above applies for many other events in N.A., including many RA events.

We started and finished this Rally very AWARE of our lack of experience on tarmac and really never pushed past 90%, we were just learning for the all weekend and treated those stages with a lot of respect.

Dave G was asking earlier on this thread if it's softer to roll on snow/mud/gravel that on tarmac. Absolutely. From personal experience, Ken and I had two rolls similar to each other, one at STPR 2006 and one at Rally Whangarei 2007 (Asia-Pacific). The one in Whangarei was on soft grass and felt like the car was literally wrapped in pillows while she was rolling, damage was minimal and we were basically pushing the panels and roof out at the end of the stage to make her look a bit prettier before the team saw her..
STPR 2006, car was a mess, windows, headlights, wing broken, corners rounded, and hitting the hard packed PA surface with the roof left us with some big headaches. Tarmac roll will be VERY destructive on a car and I'm not surprised that Civic looks in such a bad shape.
 

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L5 Lg > 4 into Broken
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It would be good to have those guys that went off with the Civic comment on what really happened,...
i heard anaccount of what happened at service but since it was third person info i won 't post it given how therehas already been enough conjecture in this thread.

I think everything Alex mentioned played a bigger role in the accident then speed. with the embankment on the left it would have been easy to roll even at lower speeds.

Jeremy
 

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Fine, go ahead and run blind on tulips. Have a blast. Far as I know, there's nothing stopping anybody from doing exactly that.
FYI, that's all we did in the old days.

Many others are quite happy working hard on developing the skills to recce stages correctly, write good notes and drive like holy hell with a better margin for not getting bit by the gotchas.
Go ahead, just don't take away the Jemba for those of us that still enjoy the sport but ABSOLUELY can't afford to do any kind of recee/NFP!

now, back on topic...
Yes, please.
 

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Why rally a Honda? Should I ditch the saab and fix up my wife’s camry to rally?
If you look at the eligibility formula, the Civic SI has the highest power and lowest weight of any new FWD car legal for the Production class. It appears to me to be one of the better options if it handled reasonably well. (FWIW, The Porsche Cayman has the best RWD numbers.)
 

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It would be good to have those guys that went off with the Civic comment on what really .
The crew did not do Recce, they told me that went I spoke with them on Thusrday night.
The crew that crash was running the blue Civic on Friday and not the Rec Civic with wich they crash with , They told me that Staurday at serivice after the accident.
The crew that crash was running there first Rally Event, They told me that on Thursday night .
There is no dout in my mind the this are 3 big factor for wy they crash .
Just glad to see that all of the Safety item's work and that this was not more then some sore neck and and a trip to macco.
Gus
 

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this is obvious that this rubbish is a personal vendetta against ivan by shindle/green. This comming from guys that run and support the running of motor cycles in car rallies just to boost there entries. isle of man tt has deaths almost every year by riders on properly prepared bikes.maybe shindle /green should lobby against ralliart and pro drive for gearing their cars to be able to do 150 mph. James foley 2006 cork 20 rally clocked by radar on a 6 left 147 mph in group n evo stage avarage 71 mph.just a quick question anders when a motor cycle has an accident similar to the one by the honda civic at rny what will the result be. i am sure you will have an (the) answer. also dave you must not have seen gus, sentra after last years rally tn if that civic is the worst damage you have seen on a production car. ivan ran a top class event and its here to stay wheather you like it or not
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #78 · (Edited)
....or maybe just someone just stirring the SpecialStage pot because there has been nothing to talk about since the JVL ban and no one else to stir it (did Jens disappear too). T-minus one week till Olympus and something else to discuss.

Don't know how you lumped Anders in with me and me with motorcycles.

I agree every rally should have several sections flat out in top gear bouncing off the rev limiter. I wouldn't have it any way. I'll be in a Prodrive car next month and while 150mph sounds a bit out of our league, 130 I'll be all grins.:D Problem is when most the rally except the junctions are pretty much flat out, there is no time for error. Seems the discussion and Alex's input has taught us the tarmac is unforgiving if you roll on it. We learned something.

Don't care if RallyNY stays or goes. Still think there is room for changes for the safer. While I don't always agree with Ivan and question decisions he has made, I don't hate him. I know he works hard (including at events other than RallyNY) and think Olga is all the hotness (or whatever the kids say these days). We are both passionate about the sport and do what we think is best for it.
 
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