[DaveHintz]

I want to hear them!

NR what was it like riding with Buffum? What happened to slow you guys down at the end?

It looked like Sprongls picked up their pace as the rally progressed. Were they having problems near the beginning?

Himes, how was the RX7 in the snow?

Dave

 

[randyzimmer]

It was a snowy Pines and the notes familiarization went great. We had a pass on all of the roads and two passes on the trickiest ones.
The roads were snow covered but not frozen so the gravel would get picked up and placed on top as would leaves from the margins.
The grip was wery good and consistant for the passes and not much worse for the start.
As the sun went down, the ice started forming at some corners - that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. I got too involved with the danger and went in a swamp/ditch. I knew better but it was fun to blast around, the roads were so neat. Because of a (temporary) stage blockage, I got to follow Frank and see how its done, so I felt I had to practice... bad idea!
If the principals don't chime in, I can add what gossip I heard but I'll wait a while for the 1st hand accounts.
rz

 

[John Vanos]

I was really looking forward to this rally, my favourite conditions were there and we felt that the snow would help us place well. We came into first service in a surprising 6th place overall. It seems other teams were taking a few stages to get up to their regular speeds as the soon started putting time on us after that. We decided to keep going quickly but safely in order to reach the end of the event.

Sadly for us that did not happen. On A5 we rolled the car on a R3>2 over crest keep middle. I tried to keep middle but was oversteering a bit too much so I corrected a bit too much and we hit the bank on the outside of the corner. That hit slowed us down from maybe 50km/h to almost stopped. Unfortunately the last bit of momentum pushed us over and we rolled and landed roof down perpendicular to the road. The passenger window broke so we got out of the car in like 15 seconds knowing we were blocking the road and in danger of being hit by cassidy/getchell who were behind us. Alan went up and flagged them down while I fumbled to get the triangle out. There was soon enough cars there for us all to slide the car on the roof off to the side but 7 minutes had past until then. Im am truly sorry to all the teams who were delayed by our car, its unfortunate but im glad Cassidy/Getchell stopped and made sure we were OK first. We owe you guys one!

The car is not bad at all given the low speed so we will be back sronger than ever at Perce Neige!

Congrats to all the finishers!

 

[Do It Sidewayz]

well..

car ran like a bag of S**T almost all day.

Stage 1, it ran on 3 cylinders for 3/4 of the stage...lost a pile of time

Stage 2, it was a little better, but still on 3 for maybe a KM or too.

Stage 3, Actually ran decently.

Stage 4, Seems the car didn't like the stage, ran on 3 cylinders for about 3 kms...lost a pile of time.

Stage 5, Ran decently, but got held up with the rollover.

Stage 6, Ran good but took it easy because of the technical nature of the stages.

Stage 7, Major rod knock for atleast 1/2 the stage.

Transit from Stage A7, she lost all oil pressure and siezed up.

Looks like we were 6th overall when we went out!

Chris
Car #18 / P4

 

[PeterWatt]

Hi Randy,
I'd be interested in your gossip, since I heard nothing at all. Our event was going well 'till we went a bit wide on one turn and tagged a tree, breaking the driver's window. While I knew you couldn't run with a window opened more than 5 cm, little did I know that finishing the stage with a broken window was the same 10 minute penalty and doing the next stage to get back to service was grounds for exclusion from the event. Little known fact in Canadian events I'll bet, but the rule book is very clear on that point. I'm guessing this is a precedent setting decision and will have all Canadian teams carrying window nets.
Stewards were quick to point out is was a serious safety situation. So serious in fact that not one official came close to check the window net installation. Trust is a wonderful thing.
Anyway, our event went from bad to worse, but congratulations to John/Nathalie, Matt/Ole, Peter / Rod, and of course Frank and Dan for their fine (on the road) third. Shame Dan can't do math very well.


I feel sorry for John Cassidy as he was truely playing the safety card and sounds like he got a quick lesson in force majeur. After the incident at Sno+*Drift we were a bit conscious of the application of that fine tradition of "tough luck". Do you know the results of the protest meeting? Since there was no food ready at 11:00 I left for home.

Good to see you there and sorry about your bad luck.
Cheers,
Peter

 

[randyzimmer]

Peter wrote,
"I feel sorry for John Cassidy as he was truely playing the safety card and sounds like he got a quick lesson in force majeur. After the incident at Sno+*Drift we were a bit conscious of the application of that fine tradition of "tough luck". Do you know the results of the protest meeting? Since there was no food ready at 11:00 I left for home."

Isn't it funny how Stewards can take two hours to deliberate a simple decision while in a nice warm room but competitors are expected to make the right one, in a very complicated situation, in 10 seconds or less?
I'm to blame for suggesting to move John and Alan's car to open the spectator stage. I thought it would be appreciated by the fans and the cars yet to arrive. After all, the VIP tent was full of customers who expected a rally to go by, not a parade. A parade that would have impacted the remaining schedule at least up to the A/B break.
At Sandblast, the competitors were yelled at for throwing (the longest stage of the rally) one when it would have been simple to correct the blockage. Different organization but - who knew?
John Cassidy got 1.5 minutes back for checking on the stopped car that had no triangle and no OK. Never mind that he lost over 7 because Dave was directing traffic, keeping any more accidents from happening and that John and Dave both have HANS which take a while to affix. Add that to the CARS decree that no car move without all belts latched and 1.5 minutes is a joke.
All I can say is if I had made the end, there'd be more appeals and inquiries pending. You still wouldn't have had dinner.
----------
In other CARS events, situations are reported that are thrown out by the stewards as counter productive to the actual competition.
At Rocky, I had seen all the cars ahead of me and some behind make errors and no decision was made to penalize them. A decision I aggreed with as small errors of proceedure shouldn't impact what we were all there to do, race.
At Pines, it was told to me that every observation that was handed to the stewards HAD to be acted on, even though stewards themselves ignored errors that occured right in front of them.
Handing out maximum penalties was also disturbing.

I didn't enter a TSD for chisakes.
rz

 

[PeterWatt]

I agree with so much you say, Randy. Having the depth of experience in all forms of motorsport competition that you possess also gives you insights and understanding that one dimensional people sometimes lack. I remember your creative removal of a stage blockage on STPR when I co-drove for you. Simple - solved the problem, and we received an appropriate time allowance for stopping at a radio control to report the incident (I was surprised at STPR).
It seemed to me such a simple situation to solve. Human nature to try to solve those with complicated solutions and the complicated ones with simplistic solutions. I don't know all of the stewards well, but in one case, I was surprised at the decisions. Do you think there is a tsd type of mentality creeping in where events are decided at the protest table and not on the road. Maybe a sign of the times.

I've often maintained the people who are truely interested in customer service, and actually understand what it is, tend to ask "How can we make this happen?" both internally and externally. There is also a great number of individuals who pay lip service to customer service and then say - "These are the hoops you must jump through to please me and my people, so do that and maybe someone will help you."

As to your variance on the rules application, I know for a fact that one top competitor was clocked for speeding on the notes familiarization pass. Are you aware of any action, fine, or sanction of any kind as stated in the supp regs and emphasized at the notes meeting? Let the denials of preferential treatment begin.

Oh - and gossip? I heard one possible candidate for CARS President may be someeone who was at the protest meeting.
TTFN
pw

 

[Doug Woods]

Randy:

A lot of what you have posted is incorrect and does not reflect what happened at the rally.

I will post some clarifying information below, but I am not interested in becoming involved is a pissing match on SpecialStage.com. If you want to discuss this in more detail, send me a PM.

>Isn't it funny how Stewards can take two hours to deliberate a
>simple decision while in a nice warm room but competitors are
>expected to make the right one, in a very complicated
>situation, in 10 seconds or less?

The protest meeting began at 11:20. In the meeting, the Stewards summarized the information presented in the original inquiry. Then evidence was presented by the protesting team, the organizers and the crew of the rolled car. Questions were asked. The Stewards deliberated and made a decision. The decision was written-up and posted. The scorers amended the results and the amended results were posted at 12:28. Total time one hour and eight minutes, not two hours. Quite reasonable considering the steps involved. BTW, we held the meeting in the basement of rally HQ and it definitely was not warm.

The situation was not complicated at all for the competitors involved. Cassidy was required to stop and ascertain if Vanos/Ockwell were OK. He immediately did exactly what was required and should be commended for doing so. He was given a time allowance for the time required to do so. Any time taken after that to get the road cleared was force majeure. All of you who stopped after Cassidy and were delayed were in a force majeure situation.

>All I can say is if I had made the end, there'd be more
>appeals and inquiries pending. You still wouldn't have had
>dinner.

Since you were in a force majeure situation, an inquiry would have likely been unsuccessful. Two other top competitors involved in exactly the same force majeure situation in the rally, withdrew their inquiries. Similarly, a protest would have likely been unsuccessful. An appeal would have been deferred to a later date and would not have delayed proceeding by more than a few minutes.

As it was, none of us had any dinner.

>At Pines, it was told to me that every observation that was
>handed to the stewards HAD to be acted on

No observations were handed to the Stewards. There were four observations by judges of fact that were given to the organizers (by the judges of fact) and the organizers acted on these.

>even though stewards themselves ignored errors that occured right in front of them

I am not aware of any errors that occurred in front of the Stewards.

>Handing out maximum penalties was also disturbing.

I am not aware of any maximum penalties that were handed out.

Doug Woods

 

[Doug Woods]

>Oh - and gossip? I heard one possible candidate for CARS
>President may be someeone who was at the protest meeting.

Peter:

There were nine people at the protest meeting. I have no idea what the other eight have planned for the future, but I can definitely state that I am not (and never have been) a candidate for CARS President.

Doug Woods

 

[randyzimmer]

Sorry Doug,
I don't really mean to group you all together but to a driver, organizers and stewards and club officers and such are the "adults" to us, being the "children".
We like each other but at times, things get strained.
So please, take it in a informational tone, not as strict leagalese.
(Having a competitor's liason is a great resourse to keep our language and proccedures correct, thanks.)

In Peter's case, being excluded for leaving the scene of a window breakage without a net for the remainder of the same stage, to me rates as a maximum penalty, that's harsh.
Extending that to absurdity, backing up a couple feet to keep from losing lights rated 10 minutes, also harsh but with a missing light, would that car be excluded for missing safety equipment?
Lots of cars backed in reseed. Isn't that a control? It was swarming with Judges of fact.
If this extension of total safety equipment over every meter of stage is enforced, Most frontrunners may as well quit rally right now (among others who litter the roads with pieces).
That basement was fine to me after standing in a swamp so long and we sat waiting for news a very long time. I hate that you guys have to bother with these things, it ruins everyone's fun but I appreciate your efforts to promote fairness.
rz

edit: like I said, I was working from gossip, I now see Bacon was 10 min, not excluded. Still a bit harsh for not carrying a net in the goodiebag, eh?

Dave, Frank S. told he had a flat on an early stage.

 

[Adrian Wintle]

>I got too involved
>with the danger and went in a swamp/ditch.

BTW Randy, that was the same swamp Thompson rolled into last year...
You looked good going by me about 1 km before that.

Adrian

 

[mattjohnston]

We went pretty fast on the first few stages. Second event for my Co-Driver Luke and he was you know, gettin up to speed (me too!).

Then we almost jumped over some rock wall face thing.

And then we caught a car on every stage (30 something on the road, what's the story?)

And then we went off on the peanut, followed someone elses tracks right into the ditch on the left 3 at junction. Strap out, Jeff Lantz tried to give us a tug out but it wasnt happening. I have to apologize to Jeff for taking so long to get our strap unhooked. Luke didnt notice your tow point, and had wrapped the strap around something weird.

Then we got outta the ditch, after about 15 minutes and did the rest of the stage with no intercoms becuase in the hustle co-driver pulled the intercom wire out of the boom on the peltor. He was screaming UBER loud.

Then on some other stage that was really long and tight (28k, dont remember the name) we caught a car, and took a while to pass (SUPER tight roads). Then we passed em, and about a k later got a flat, drove 5-6ks out on it, and destroyed it. Lost some time, no problem. Changed it on the road in under 2 minutes (Cordless impact'd!)

And then we went kinda fast some more, and then it was night time. We swapped tires for the night stages, and for B1/2 I couldnt control the car, totally all over the place. Check tire pressure before control and 45PSI, BUNK. Drop it to 28 and car is much better.

Half spin at the slippy speccie area twice, take out some arrows and thats all.

Tall Pines is a top top event.

 

[robin]

we changed our note for that to "the Thompson crest"

Robin

 

[PRT]

The CARS rule book states:
A window can not be OPENED more then 2" (can't remember the actual number) while driving a competitive stage.
For me open is a VOLONTARY act.
They were penalized for driving with a BROKEN window! Wich is an ACCIDENTAL situation. And I'm sure they were planning on fixing it at service... And anyway, leaving service without fixing the problem, then they could be penalized.

The wrong rule on the wrong situation.
Either rewrite the rule or add one in the book.

Did you know that you could basicaly keep on driving without a windshield after let say rolling your car and kicking it out!!
Same rules says window... Not windshield...

 

[Jorge]

The rules actualy say nothing in reference to having to use a window net in lieu of a side window glass "missing due to an accident", it only refers to one were, by choice, has been winded down more than 2.5cm.
Nick, The intent of the rule is very clear but the wording is very arguable.

The problem here is not how the rule reads but the fact that, from what you are saying, they assesed a penalty whitout giving the crew a chance to get to the first service and fix the problem, This is totaly insane at best.

The rules also state you must have mud flaps... what is next? are they going to give a penalty to everyone who loses a mud flap mid stage?

ohh, maybe by penalising them, they are just trying to give drivers an insentive not to roll their cars.... those clever cookies have finaly figured out that we all go out there to roll over and lighten up our cars by getting rid of glass and other parts :+

Jorge

 

[TSDScooby]

We had a blast. This was my first snow rally (I had done snow rally-x before and Tim O'Neil school, but this was quite different!). Sarah and I started at a descent speed trying to feel the conditions and get back into the groove of things as it had been a long time since Sarah and I had been in the car together.
The morning and early afternoon stages were grippy as randy pointed out. Stage 3 I made a mistake and landed on the wrong side of the road after a jump. We were lucky in that we only got a flat. We drove the flat 'til the end and then changed it. It cost us some seconds in the stage and 1 minute late checking in. Stage 4 we tooke it easy trying to get back into it. 5,6,7 we were happy with them. 6 in particular Sarah was reading the notes at a good pace which felt good.
8 another flat to not fault of my own this time It was a pitty since the end of stage 8 is really fast and wide. I wanted to drive that portion as fast as I could but with the front left gone it was hard. After the end of 8 we changed the tire and I guess the practice we got on stage 3 allowed us to still make it on time at Time Control.
With no more spares left we decided to finish the last stages driving like a grand ma. It turns out this was a good thing as the night stages were slippery in some corners and grippy in anothers, so we just took all the corners as if they were slippery
We tried to pull out Bacon's Suzuki in one of the stages but they were pretty stuck. I don't know if somebody else was able to pull them out as we gave up after a few tries. I was surprised of how many people were around the car trying to pull it out.. People where everywhere in the woods!
Unfortunatly, in one of the starts i got to close to Cassady's car and afraid of being hit by debri i backed-up a few feet.. STUPID MISTAKE OF MINE! x( at the end it turned out that it cost us 10 minutes and a good placement in category.. Oh well. lesson learned..

Anyway, this is our story. we enjoyed the event and it was by far the hardest i've been to in my short experience. We are looking forward attending other CARS events from now on...

Cheers!

Emilio Arce

 

[Jay_Efting]

Ok - here's the story of the Alfa Milano #38.
Driver - Eric Mozer
Co-Driver - Jay Efting

On stage A7 we took a corner a little tight and bounced off a big rock with the car ending up mostly a crossed the road. Eric was able to get the car off the rocks and we continued on with only minor damage and a few minutes lost. It was scary because we were behind a blind turn mostly blocking the road, so any car coming up the road would not see us. I got out with triangles and went back up the road, but thankfully Eric got the car free prior to the next car arriving.

On stage B1 .3K from the end of the stage we came into an !R3>2 into L4>3. The stretch prior was a long (mostly) straight and we had a fair amount of speed coming in to the corner. The car went wide, slide off the road sideways, hit the rocks and started rolling. I think the first 1/2 of the roll was air born, and the rest was tempered by the hill that we were rolling down. We ended up doing about a 430 degree roll with the car coming to rest mostly on the driver's side.

The Alfa suffered considerable body damage but neither Eric or I were hurt at all - in fact we were quite surprised how "soft" the roll was. We were very lucky that we didn't have hard contact any large trees. We certainly believe the saying now ... it's not IF but WHEN as this was a first for both of us.

There were many LARGE rocks between car and the road. Sweep worked on the car for a LOOOONG time (3+hrs?) extracting it because it kept getting hung up on the rocks. They finally hooked up a line to the back, then to a high spot in a tree and lifted the rear end off the ground. Hooked a couple of lines to the front and pulled it out on just the front wheels. I want to especially thank the determination, and creativeness of Sweep. These guys/gals were FANTASTIC and never gave up on getting the car out. We cost them much lost sleep and I never heard any complaints.

THANK YOU TP SWEEP!!! YOU RULE. (hope we don't meet on stage again)

There were about 30 spectators on the corner so we gave them quite a show!!!

All in all we had a blast and we do hope to return next year to TP for a finish in '06.

Picturs can be found at http://www.neals.ca/tallpines.html
thanks for sharing the pics also!


Jay
KC8YWA

 

[jeffy]

ahhh - Deb and I wondered what had happened, as we caught up w/ you guys near the &^%^%%^#$ boarder in Sarnia.
Yeah - The Ontario Sweep team is THE BEST .... I assume you have the sticker now to prove it!
been there done that, been swept (more than once) by those guys.

Welcome to the club (those that HAVE rolled)

 

[DaveCotie]

>Ok - here's the story of the Alfa Milano #38.
>Driver - Eric Mozer
>Co-Driver - Jay Efting
>
>
>
>Picturs can be found at http://www.neals.ca/tallpines.html
>thanks for sharing the pics also!
>
>
>Jay
>KC8YWA

You have to send a copy of that picture of the GRM sticker to GRM and the story. You will get in the magazine!

Dave C

 

[Baconmotorsport]

I would like to take this oppurtunity to thank Joan and Jeffy. This is the second time in one year that they have pulled us out of a snow bank. Thanks again and sorry about the bumper. What do we owe you for that. And just a reminder... Peter was driving when that happened!