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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Its almost here! Woohoo!

I was just looking over the entry list and I noticed that the previously entered Hyundai Accent WRC '03 is not longer listed.
Tons of great competitors though, great to see so many open class U.S. guys coming up! Does anyone know if the Richards are planning to enter this year? I sure hope so. Sprongls are listed yet either?

So is everyone else looking forward to it? I am only a spectator so far, but I plan on racing at some point in the future.
 

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Faster Mabricator
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>I was just looking over the entry list and I noticed that .....

I codrove for 7 of the drivers. Doh!

Where is Gord? Its gonna be another Gr2 championship showdown.
 

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1973 WRC POR
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>I was just looking over the entry list and I noticed that the
>previously entered Hyundai Accent WRC '03 is no longer
>listed.

The actual car is a VW Golf AWD Turbo.

>Tons of great competitors though, great to see so many open
>class U.S. guys coming up! Does anyone know if the Richards
>are planning to enter this year? I sure hope so. Sprongls are not
>listed yet either?

If you go to the website and read the online spectator guide, you will see a number of teams profiled who are not yet on the entry list. In the past, some teams have handed in their entry at the meeting where the draw for the start order takes place, which is next Tuesday, November 15.

Doug Woods
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks, you are right.
No Pat and Nat Richard though :(

Field looks awesome, only ones I will miss will be the Subaru Factory Team.
 

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Faster Mabricator
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>Field looks awesome, only ones I will miss will be the Subaru
>Factory Team.

McGeer is driving course opening.
 

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>I heard the Sprongl's have had some S1600 bits shipped in to
>up the Ante a bit. Should be awesome to watch! :)

What could those bits be to up the ante? Aren't those cars running in P2 class?
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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I'm a bit curious regarding the organiser notes and Tall Pines.

Their notes familiarisation package advises against pace noting (and shows a lack of understanding of how pace noting is done) but does allow for 'modification' of the notes presented.
There are a couple of stages that are being run twice as familiarisation passes ... can competitors make pace notes on these passes and use them?(two 'low speed' passes is the norm for pace noting passes)
The rule s (NRR VIH 1 & 2 ) would suggest that any notes made in a familiarisation run would be acceptible for use in the event - even pace notes.
 

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Faster Mabricator
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At the time the stagenotes were written, it was unsure if there would be 2 passes on any stage. The advice may have been to do not make pacenotes on one pass which got changed last minute to what it says now when 2 passes were approved for the more technical stages.

I disagree and think the Notes Familarization Pass Package was well thought out and put together.
 

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>I disagree and think the Notes Familarization Pass Package was
>well thought out and put together

Dave, I'm not sure who you are disagreeing with ... I also think the package was well put together.

My issue comes in their suggestion that pace note writing requires a 'fast' pass in order to be accurate.
"Do not attempt to turn the supplied Notes into full Pace Notes as you will not have the opportunity to verify your notes at speed."

Ultimately, I am asking (out of curiosity) if teams CAN make their own pace notes on a single or double pass stage? As many of us know, you absolutely do not need a pass 'at speed' to verify your notes!
 

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>Dave, I'm not sure who you are disagreeing with ... I also
>think the package was well put together.

".....shows a lack of understanding of how pace noting is done".

I think McGeer and Williams know exactly what they are doing.

>My issue comes in their suggestion that pace note writing
>requires a 'fast' pass in order to be accurate.

Have you run TallPines or do you remember the un-cautioned double crest maybe 2 years ago that was more like a jump into a !!jump that tore up many cars? Its a very cresty rally with sharp crests and occasional outright yumps. I know the stagenote team made many passes in a prepped car verifying the notes this year, perhaps even being able to drive it faster than we will be permitted to and/or able to determine a crest from a yump with just our 2 passes.

http://www.tallpinesrally.com/TallPines/Portals/0/Images/TPTalonJump_220x106.jpg

http://www.andrewharvey.ca/images/tallpines/CRW_6655.jpg

Unless I was codriving for a driver with a very unique pacenote style, given the choice of editing stagenotes that have been thoroughly checked into our own pacenotes or creating my own pacenotes from scratch (much of which I only get 1 pass to create), I would choose editing the stagenotes. Perhaps that is all that they are advising.
 

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>Unless I was codriving for a driver with a very unique
>pacenote style, given the choice of editing stagenotes that
>have been thoroughly checked into our own pacenotes or
>creating my own pacenotes from scratch (much of which I only
>get 1 pass to create), I would choose editing the stagenotes.
>Perhaps that is all that they are advising.

- Same here, well said, Mr Dave
 

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>I think McGeer and Williams know exactly what they are doing.

Give me a break ... I was never suggesting that Tom or Mark didn't know what they were doing. I have an extremem amount of respect for both of them.
All I was saying is that that suggestion in the NFP documentation that suggests that a pass 'at speed' is needed for making pace notes shows a lack of understanding of how pace notes are successfully made at other Canadian events. I suspect that this is an organisers comment rather than something from McGeer or Williams.

>Unless I was codriving for a driver with a very unique
>pacenote style, given the choice of editing stagenotes that
>have been thoroughly checked into our own pacenotes or
>creating my own pacenotes from scratch (much of which I only
>get 1 pass to create), I would choose editing the stagenotes.
>Perhaps that is all that they are advising.

Agreed ... I would not want to run on pace notes created on a single pass either, particularly on a 'cresty' road.

But back to the original question. Can teams make their own pace notes on the NFP if they so choose?
 

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I'm not sure what the statement made about verifying "at speed" pace notes really means. All recce events in Canada have a 60 kph speed limit during recce. My interpretation is that on many stages, 60 kph is not "at speed"
I'm guessing by that interpretation, that true pace notes cannot exist in Canada.

Without checking the FIA rules, I also am suspicious that those notes can be checked "at speed".

Peter
 

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Keith,

Once again it appears you have taken another Pines message thread way off topic. You have taken a couple of words way out of context. If you read the supplied documentation on the Notes Familiarization Pass (NFP), you would realize this is not the case. FYI, Mark Williams did in fact create the NFP document that you are quoting. I don't know where you get this idea that we suggested that creating notes at speed is required!? I think your making a bad assumption here. This was certainly not how the Pines notes were created.

Our documentation states clearly that making pace notes is not permitted and that this is NOT Recce. Have another read of the documents.

Hopefully this answers your questions.


Richard Hepburn
Rally of the Tall Pines - Coordinator
www.TallPinesRally.com
 

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Ricahrd, no need to be defensive.

Ultimately, I was looking for a clarificatin of the ability to make their own notes, particularly on stages with 2 familiarisation passes.

From the NFR guide:
"Do not attempt to turn the supplied Notes into full Pace Notes as you will not have the opportunity to verify your notes at speed."

Sounds like advice rather than a rule ... and also doesn't account for the fact that pace noting is always done (in Canada) as 2 passes at low speed, none 'at speed.' In context it was advising all teams to focusing on adjusting the supplied notes rather than starting fresh.

From the Supps:
"Competitors may adjust the Descriptive Stage Notes during the provided Notes Familiarization pass (see section 20). Possession of other notes (descriptive, pace or otherwise made by the competitors outside of the Notes Familiarization Pass) will result in exclusion from the event and possible further action. See NRR VI H (page B-41).

The phrase "made by the competitors outside of the Notes familiarization Pass" would seem to open the door to pace notes made during the familiarization pass, which would seem to also be legal according to the CARS rules.

I don't know where you get this idea that we suggested that creating notes at speed is required!? (see above bolded quote)
I think your making a bad assumption here. This was certainly not how the Pines notes were created.


For the record, I never suggested that Tom and Mark did anything BUT run the stages in a regular road car and stayed within the speedlimits ...
It was Dave Shindle that posted:"I know the stagenote team made many passes in a prepped car verifying the notes this year, perhaps even being able to drive it faster than we will be permitted to and/or able to determine a crest from a yump with just our 2 passes."
 

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Faster Mabricator
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>For the record, I never suggested that Tom and Mark did
>anything BUT run the stages in a regular road car and stayed
>within the speedlimits ...
>It was Dave Shindle that posted:"I know the stagenote
>team made many passes in a prepped car verifying the notes
>this year, perhaps even being able to drive it faster than we
>will be permitted to and/or able to determine a crest from a
>yump with just our 2 passes."

perhapsis a vaque and key word. The NFP has a speed limit of 60k/hour. Perhapsthere are roads with higher posted limits or no limit posted. And having many more opportunities than 2 just passes helps all the more. I've been on stagenote teams that made at least 8 passes verifying technical bits.

So Keith, who are you running with and why do you care so much?
 

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I'm not running pines - as of this moment - this year.
I am curoius because there is a good chance I'll be at pines next year, and I am trying to look ahead to what may happen then.
The committee has gone from 'absolutely no way of doing recce' to providing a NFP that is getting really close to recce.

This started as a simple question, one that came to me in conversation with another competitor who MAY have gone to pines, and I was trying to get the 'straight goods'
 

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>I'm not sure what the statement made about verifying "at
>speed" pace notes really means. All recce events in Canada
>have a 60 kph speed limit during recce. My interpretation is
>that on many stages, 60 kph is not "at speed"
>I'm guessing by that interpretation, that true pace notes
>cannot exist in Canada.
>
>Without checking the FIA rules, I also am suspicious that
>those notes can be checked "at speed".

By the way, the FIA rules are not hard to find (www.fia.com)

From the general prescriptions for WRC events, section 12:

"... It is emphasised that reconnaissance is not practice. All the Road Traffic Laws of the country in which the rally runs must be strictly adhered to and the safety and rights of other road users must be respected. ... A system for controlling the speed throughout reconnaissance by means of a GPS must be used on all the cars"

If you think that "at speed" runs are required for true recce, then true recce does not exist anywhere in the WRC.

Paul
 

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>Our documentation states clearly that making pace notes is not
>permitted and that this is NOT Recce. Have another read of the
>documents.

It muddifies the fuzzification a little bit.

From the supp regs, section 18: "Competitors may adjust the Descriptive Stage Notes during the provided Notes Familiarization Pass (see section 20). Possession of other notes (descriptive, pace or otherwise made by the competitors outside of the Notes Familiarization Pass) will result in exclusion from the event and possible further action. See NRR VI H (page B-41)."

Are you only prohibiting posession of notes made outside the NFP, or is posession of anything other than "adjusted" supplied notes prohibited?

If a team makes their own pace notes, during the NFP, but writes them in the margin of the supplied notes, is this "adjusting" or is it making prohibited pace notes? What if they write them on the reverse of each page?

The supp regs refer to NRR VI H:

NRR VI H 1 prohibits being on the stage road for the 60 days prior to the event, except where permission has been granted by the organizer, so this can't be used to penalize a team for making their own notes during the authorized NFP, since they are explicitly authorized to be on that stage at that time.

NRR VI H 2 prohibits posession of notes made prior to the event. If you want to use this rule to prohibit teams from making their own pace notes during the NFP, then it must also prohibit any "adjustment" of the supplied notes. Since that is explicitly allowed, you must not be considering the NFP to be "prior to the event" - again, the point of the rule is to prevent teams causing a nuisance to locals outside the regulated times, not to prohibit one style of note writing.

Paul
 
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