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For the Notes familiarization pass, can we use our rally cars?
Or are competition vehicles prohibited like recce..?
Or are competition vehicles prohibited like recce..?
Tall Pines Q's
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78 Posts
Hi Matt,
Rally cars will not be allowed on the Notes Familiarization pass. For public relations reasons only street legal road vehicles with proper mufflers will be allowed. Street legal tires suitable for the conditions are also recommended as the weather can be unpredictable in late Novemeber. Details will be outlined in the Supplementary Regulations which are in the approval process and will be posted shortly.
Thanks, Richard
Coordinator - Rally of the Tall Pines
25-26 Nov. 2005
www.tallpinesrally.com
Rally cars will not be allowed on the Notes Familiarization pass. For public relations reasons only street legal road vehicles with proper mufflers will be allowed. Street legal tires suitable for the conditions are also recommended as the weather can be unpredictable in late Novemeber. Details will be outlined in the Supplementary Regulations which are in the approval process and will be posted shortly.
Thanks, Richard
Coordinator - Rally of the Tall Pines
25-26 Nov. 2005
www.tallpinesrally.com
Joined
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267 Posts
I am a western competitor who will not be participating in this event but am worried about a precedent being set.
This seems so strange. Rally cars ARE road legal vehicles. My rally car's exhaust is also street legal (<95db for BC, also meets CARS rules which are even more stringent) and for what it's worth I drove my rally car as my daily driver for 8 months this year with no police issues. Are you saying that I couldn't use my rally car for this recce?
Aaron.
This seems so strange. Rally cars ARE road legal vehicles. My rally car's exhaust is also street legal (<95db for BC, also meets CARS rules which are even more stringent) and for what it's worth I drove my rally car as my daily driver for 8 months this year with no police issues. Are you saying that I couldn't use my rally car for this recce?
Aaron.
Joined
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2,472 Posts
>I am a western competitor who will not be participating in
>this event but am worried about a precedent being set.
>
>This seems so strange. Rally cars ARE road legal vehicles.
>My rally car's exhaust is also street legal (<95db for BC,
>also meets CARS rules which are even more stringent) and for
>what it's worth I drove my rally car as my daily driver for 8
>months this year with no police issues. Are you saying that I
>couldn't use my rally car for this recce?
>
>Aaron.
>
>
Correct, and the precedent has already been set. The recce at Baie and Defi (last year and this year) also had to be done in street cars. The issue is not necessarily that your rally car isn't as quiet as any other street car, but that it looks like a race car.
Adrian
>this event but am worried about a precedent being set.
>
>This seems so strange. Rally cars ARE road legal vehicles.
>My rally car's exhaust is also street legal (<95db for BC,
>also meets CARS rules which are even more stringent) and for
>what it's worth I drove my rally car as my daily driver for 8
>months this year with no police issues. Are you saying that I
>couldn't use my rally car for this recce?
>
>Aaron.
>
>
Correct, and the precedent has already been set. The recce at Baie and Defi (last year and this year) also had to be done in street cars. The issue is not necessarily that your rally car isn't as quiet as any other street car, but that it looks like a race car.
Adrian
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1,367 Posts
Trouble with recce in rally cars is that the local inhabitants are exposed to a forest full of loud bright colored race cars for a whole day before the same cars show up and run in controlled conditions. And whenever rally cars are let loose in the woods...somebody ends up driving faster than they should and...guess it's a genetic thing.
Call it a kind of a local road-access PR issue.
Besides, it's essentially impractical to write legible notes in a stiff bouncy race car traveling rough roads at slow speeds. A street car or SUV works much better.
Cheers,
Dave G
www.lastditchracing.com
"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
Call it a kind of a local road-access PR issue.
Besides, it's essentially impractical to write legible notes in a stiff bouncy race car traveling rough roads at slow speeds. A street car or SUV works much better.
Cheers,
Dave G
www.lastditchracing.com
"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
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4,813 Posts
>Correct, and the precedent has already been set. The recce at
>Baie and Defi (last year and this year) also had to be done in
>street cars.
But perhaps a larger precident has been set that in Alberta and BC rally cars ARE allowed to be used for recce and always have been. (remember that we did 5 regional events last year with recce last year and will do 5 again this year)
Aggressive sanctions for poor behavior, including exclusion from the recce and/or the event, should be enough to keep people in check, and from my experience (looking at some of the eastern competitors at PFR Last year) you don't have to be in a rally car to drive recklessly and dangerously on recce. Recce at WCRC events is ALWAYS relaxed and 'low impact.'
Dave is right, however, that recce in a rally car is tough on the co-driver... unless you are swapping out the suspension for recce.
>Baie and Defi (last year and this year) also had to be done in
>street cars.
But perhaps a larger precident has been set that in Alberta and BC rally cars ARE allowed to be used for recce and always have been. (remember that we did 5 regional events last year with recce last year and will do 5 again this year)
Aggressive sanctions for poor behavior, including exclusion from the recce and/or the event, should be enough to keep people in check, and from my experience (looking at some of the eastern competitors at PFR Last year) you don't have to be in a rally car to drive recklessly and dangerously on recce. Recce at WCRC events is ALWAYS relaxed and 'low impact.'
Dave is right, however, that recce in a rally car is tough on the co-driver... unless you are swapping out the suspension for recce.
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3,611 Posts
Precedent nothing. Allowing recce using rallycars should be left to the event organizers. Because it is good in the western championship does not mean it'll work well elsewhere. The main difference I see between east & west is population density, but also consider public relations, other traffic issues (i.e. logging), road condition and how well road handles increased traffic, dust (RockyMtn concern), safety (Possum Borne killed in recce),....
Individual event organizers know what is best for their event.
Individual event organizers know what is best for their event.
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4,813 Posts
Dave, you missed my point.
More than the cars used, the general attitude during recce is FAR more important than anything else.
At PFR last year I had a 'top' competitor from the east pushing me through the FIRST pass of a stage, until I could find a place to pull off, and then he disappeared at a rate SIGNIFICANLTY faster than the event's speed limit for the recce.
In contrast, I had another top competitor who has significant recce experience who held back until a safe place to get around was had ... and while he was also doing a 'quick' recce - he was using his head about it.
I suspect that people of the same mindset as the former competitor are the same who think that two way recce is dangerous (It is inherrently safer - by its nature - than single direction recce on an open road ... IF the competitors understand what recce is about!)
I guess another question for the TP organisers is if they would allow caged / semi prepared but un decaled 'recce' cars.
More than the cars used, the general attitude during recce is FAR more important than anything else.
At PFR last year I had a 'top' competitor from the east pushing me through the FIRST pass of a stage, until I could find a place to pull off, and then he disappeared at a rate SIGNIFICANLTY faster than the event's speed limit for the recce.
In contrast, I had another top competitor who has significant recce experience who held back until a safe place to get around was had ... and while he was also doing a 'quick' recce - he was using his head about it.
I suspect that people of the same mindset as the former competitor are the same who think that two way recce is dangerous (It is inherrently safer - by its nature - than single direction recce on an open road ... IF the competitors understand what recce is about!)
I guess another question for the TP organisers is if they would allow caged / semi prepared but un decaled 'recce' cars.
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267 Posts
I didn't mean to stir the pot (too much) but my point of view is that some teams are not teams, they are just the driver and co-driver. There is no friend or money support and certainly no option for second cars or service vehicles or trailers. Can you even rent a car for recce ($150 I assume plus the insurance would be void as most rentals cars I believe are not allowed on forest roads)? As Keith has pointed out it's not the cars causing the problems, it's the drivers. It's ridiculous, but the point that rally cars "look" fast (perception) is true but wouldn't the type of people complaining about "fast cars" complain anyways?
The extra cost of requiring a second car at an event would be frustrating to say the least and I hope that our current western policies continue to work successfully.
Aaron Neumann.
The extra cost of requiring a second car at an event would be frustrating to say the least and I hope that our current western policies continue to work successfully.
Aaron Neumann.
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3,611 Posts
>Dave, you missed my point.
>More than the cars used, the general attitude during recce is
>FAR more important than anything else.
Like I said, individual event organizers know what is best for their event. If they want to or need to police the recce behavior and speeds, they can. Its also upto the event organizers to define punishment for breaking recce regulations in their supps.
>More than the cars used, the general attitude during recce is
>FAR more important than anything else.
Like I said, individual event organizers know what is best for their event. If they want to or need to police the recce behavior and speeds, they can. Its also upto the event organizers to define punishment for breaking recce regulations in their supps.
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1,367 Posts
>>
>I guess another question for the TP organisers is if they
>would allow caged / semi prepared but un decaled 'recce' cars.
>
>
>
Aw, great. Now we got YET ANOTHER vehicle to own, prepare, maintain and transport to events (and to straighten after it gets bent on recce). Better start scanning the "18-Wheeler Car Transporter For Sale" ads.....
One significant and competitor-safety-related point in favor of recce in the race car: you get to see for sure which crests are blind and which are not. Recce in the tall-boy F250 haul truck can be quite deceiving that way.
Agreed that individual organizers should be able to adopt what works best for their particular event and landowner issues.
Dave G
www.lastditchracing.net
>I guess another question for the TP organisers is if they
>would allow caged / semi prepared but un decaled 'recce' cars.
>
>
>
Aw, great. Now we got YET ANOTHER vehicle to own, prepare, maintain and transport to events (and to straighten after it gets bent on recce). Better start scanning the "18-Wheeler Car Transporter For Sale" ads.....
One significant and competitor-safety-related point in favor of recce in the race car: you get to see for sure which crests are blind and which are not. Recce in the tall-boy F250 haul truck can be quite deceiving that way.
Agreed that individual organizers should be able to adopt what works best for their particular event and landowner issues.
Dave G
www.lastditchracing.net
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2,421 Posts
Everyone should be aware that there is no recce at Tall Pines this year. You will not be making your own pace notes.
You will be provided with notes by the organizers. You will then have one Notes Familiarization Pass over the stage roads, under controlled conditions. During this pass, you may edit the provided notes to match your personal preferences.
The organizers will be monitoring driver behaviour and speeds (with radar). The Stewards will also be observing.
As Dave Shindle has correctly pointed out, only the organizers of an event can determine the best method for pre-event familiarization of the stage roads by competitors.
Doug Woods
You will be provided with notes by the organizers. You will then have one Notes Familiarization Pass over the stage roads, under controlled conditions. During this pass, you may edit the provided notes to match your personal preferences.
The organizers will be monitoring driver behaviour and speeds (with radar). The Stewards will also be observing.
As Dave Shindle has correctly pointed out, only the organizers of an event can determine the best method for pre-event familiarization of the stage roads by competitors.
Doug Woods
Joined
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4,813 Posts
>You will be provided with notes by the organizers. You will
>then have one Notes Familiarization Pass over the stage roads,
>under controlled conditions. During this pass, you may edit
>the provided notes to match your personal preferences.
>As Dave Shindle has correctly pointed out, only the organizers
>of an event can determine the best method for pre-event
>familiarization of the stage roads by competitors.
Agreed, and definately better that the situation of the last couple of years.
FYI - Here's the standard wording for WCRC Recce, regarding vehicles:
Competitors are strongly encouraged to use unmarked, non-competition vehicles for reconnaissance, although competing vehicles cars may be used if there are no other options. Door numbers, such as those used during a rally, are prohibited
The all out ban on rally cars as recce cars likely only effects low budget teams ... I know I won't recce in the rally car unless I absolutely HAVE to.
As far as image goes ... I know of more than a couple of street cars that look more like rally cars than my RS did when I had it!
>then have one Notes Familiarization Pass over the stage roads,
>under controlled conditions. During this pass, you may edit
>the provided notes to match your personal preferences.
>As Dave Shindle has correctly pointed out, only the organizers
>of an event can determine the best method for pre-event
>familiarization of the stage roads by competitors.
Agreed, and definately better that the situation of the last couple of years.
FYI - Here's the standard wording for WCRC Recce, regarding vehicles:
Competitors are strongly encouraged to use unmarked, non-competition vehicles for reconnaissance, although competing vehicles cars may be used if there are no other options. Door numbers, such as those used during a rally, are prohibited
The all out ban on rally cars as recce cars likely only effects low budget teams ... I know I won't recce in the rally car unless I absolutely HAVE to.
As far as image goes ... I know of more than a couple of street cars that look more like rally cars than my RS did when I had it!
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3,258 Posts
Agreeded. And one of the many reasons I'm not in favor for recee. As long as we have prepared stage notes it will work for me without being able to do recee. But once there's no other option other than recee, I'm afraid I'll be out.
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1,367 Posts
>Everyone should be aware that there is no recce at Tall Pines
>this year. You will not be making your own pace notes.
>
>You will be provided with notes by the organizers. You will
>then have one Notes Familiarization Pass over the stage roads,
>under controlled conditions. During this pass, you may edit
>the provided notes to match your personal preferences.
>
>
>Doug Woods
A similar system of checking the stage roads with prepared notes in hand has been done a number of times at Rally NY with excellent results. They allow 2-pass recce with provided Jemba notes. It's a great way to become familiar with Jemba if you don't already know the language and/or need to become familar with the difference between an L3 vs L4, Cr vs Jmp, ! vs !!!, etc. It's a really good way to edit OUT unneeded info in busy sections so that navvies can concentrate of alerting driver to upcoming gotchas.
Kudos to TP organizers for finding what appears to be a workable compromise that doesn't require blind faith in organizer notes, and/or extra event days soley dovoted to recce.
Dave G
"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
>this year. You will not be making your own pace notes.
>
>You will be provided with notes by the organizers. You will
>then have one Notes Familiarization Pass over the stage roads,
>under controlled conditions. During this pass, you may edit
>the provided notes to match your personal preferences.
>
>
>Doug Woods
A similar system of checking the stage roads with prepared notes in hand has been done a number of times at Rally NY with excellent results. They allow 2-pass recce with provided Jemba notes. It's a great way to become familiar with Jemba if you don't already know the language and/or need to become familar with the difference between an L3 vs L4, Cr vs Jmp, ! vs !!!, etc. It's a really good way to edit OUT unneeded info in busy sections so that navvies can concentrate of alerting driver to upcoming gotchas.
Kudos to TP organizers for finding what appears to be a workable compromise that doesn't require blind faith in organizer notes, and/or extra event days soley dovoted to recce.
Dave G
"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
Joined
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768 Posts
Pac Forest Recce w/rally cars ?
>
>But perhaps a larger precident has been set that in Alberta
>and BC rally cars ARE allowed to be used for recce and always
>have been.
>
??????????
This statement makes me think that rally cars are allowed
for Recce at Pac Forest ....
I'm only about 95% sure,but I thought that the organizers
(and the supps ?) said that recce can not be done in competition
vehicles ?
Anybody know for sure ?
>
>But perhaps a larger precident has been set that in Alberta
>and BC rally cars ARE allowed to be used for recce and always
>have been.
>
??????????
This statement makes me think that rally cars are allowed
for Recce at Pac Forest ....
I'm only about 95% sure,but I thought that the organizers
(and the supps ?) said that recce can not be done in competition
vehicles ?
Anybody know for sure ?
Joined
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267 Posts
RE: Pac Forest Recce w/rally cars ?
http://www.pacificforestrally.com/archives/2005/PFR2005sups.pdf
Page 7: Rally cars may be used.
Aaron Neumann.
http://www.pacificforestrally.com/archives/2005/PFR2005sups.pdf
Page 7: Rally cars may be used.
Aaron Neumann.
Joined
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4,813 Posts
RE: Pac Forest Recce w/rally cars ?
In the supp regs they are clear ...
"Competitors may use any street licensed, insured
vehicle for recce, including the rally car.
Competitors will be issued with numbers to be
mounted on the rear side windows of the car."
In the supp regs they are clear ...
"Competitors may use any street licensed, insured
vehicle for recce, including the rally car.
Competitors will be issued with numbers to be
mounted on the rear side windows of the car."
RE: Pac Forest Recce w/rally cars ?
Just to be clear - we have made provisions for penalizing un-ruly conduct during recce.
After some un-sportman-like incidents from last years's recce cars - this year, we had to reassured the local land-owners that they are welcome to assist us in monitoring the traffic of the recce cars. They have a hotline to call if they notice any issues. They are aware that each car can be referenced by the recce number on the vehicle. We will investigate every complaint that comes in. Positive PR is paramount to any recce event.
Also, we will be putting hidden speed traps throughout the recce route with the assistance of the area police.
All we ask is that every competitor keep in mind that we are all Ambassadors of rallying - keep it positive and keep it safe.
Simple enough?
Just to be clear - we have made provisions for penalizing un-ruly conduct during recce.
After some un-sportman-like incidents from last years's recce cars - this year, we had to reassured the local land-owners that they are welcome to assist us in monitoring the traffic of the recce cars. They have a hotline to call if they notice any issues. They are aware that each car can be referenced by the recce number on the vehicle. We will investigate every complaint that comes in. Positive PR is paramount to any recce event.
Also, we will be putting hidden speed traps throughout the recce route with the assistance of the area police.
All we ask is that every competitor keep in mind that we are all Ambassadors of rallying - keep it positive and keep it safe.
Simple enough?
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