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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Discussion Starter #1
In another thread Peter Watt posted:
*Edited to correct attribution of quote*

"With the organizer provided notes, one would expect that their accuracy has been verified and corrected by the RSO note writing guru. That is an RSO requirement for notes to be used, and one that is rigidly enforced. With that condition in place, even a one pass familiarization should not reveal any issues that would be of signifigant danger. "

I asked and did not get an answer (lost in the noise of a busy thread) if this was a change in policy or persons from teh process used for last year's notes and the notes for the year pervious.

in 2003 we had incar of at least one team being critical of the notes and in 2004 many teams were vocal about the poor quality of the organiser notes ...

As part of a team that might consider running pines this year, I want to know if we can expect the same type of verification as last year or if there has been a change in procedure or people doing the notes and verification. Will they be identified (no Idea if they were publicly identified for previous years)
 

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1973 WRC POR
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>In another thread Doug Woods posted:
>
>"With the organizer provided notes, one would expect that
>their accuracy has been verified and corrected by the RSO note
>writing guru. That is an RSO requirement for notes to be used,
>and one that is rigidly enforced. With that condition in
>place, even a one pass familiarization should not reveal any
>issues that would be of signifigant danger."

Keith:

I never posted the above paragraph.

Doug Woods
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Discussion Starter #3
Sorry Doug, I guess I just can't stop thinking about you :)
 

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Keith - good qustion. I expect that is why we are getting a one-pass familiarization run on Friday w/said notes.
The other thread got a bit long and heavy and I don't want to rehash what may have already been stated, but it looks like the organizers have chosen this as a way to deal w/ the issues from the past few years.
Personally I respect the pros/cons of Jemba notes and full recce (and blind events) so this may be the best answer for Tall Pines.
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Discussion Starter #5
>Keith - good qustion. I expect that is why we are getting a
>one-pass familiarization run on Friday w/said notes.

Although it has been mentioned that the cars are being teched at the time that the familiarisation pass is being allowed ...
My question is what is RSO doing differently with regard to the accuracy and validation of the notes from previous years.
I am not wanting to open up the recce/blind/jemba can of worms again.
 

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R6 L6 R6< 800
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I would have hoped that someone from the Pines committee might have answered this but - from their web site:

Notes this year are being done by Tom McGeer and Mark Williams.
Last year they were apparently done by two people - half by John Bellefleur and half by Keith Townsend. (I was told this - I can't say it was true.)
As co-organizer of the Galway-Cavendish Forest Rally, I had to have my notes checked by John Bellefleur and all changes recommended by him had to be made with no questions asked.
The official directive from the RallySport Ontario Board reads as follows: (RSO Minutes - April 9, 2003)
". . . subject to the following newly created RSO Notes Guidelines:

(1) the notes must follow the same format as those provided for the 2002 Tall Pines

(2) RSO believes since this is a regional event and as such, intended to promote grassroots-level rallysport, there shall be no extra cost for these notes over and above the normal posted entry fee for the event.

(3) The notes when completed must be provided to RSO to be green crewed by the person or persons of RSO's choice. The remarks and changes recommended by the green crew must be followed. If the organizers are unable or unwilling to follow the changes recommended by the RSO Greencrew, the notes shall be disallowed for the event and only the approved, standard route book shall be provided."

It went on to say that all Ontario events would adhere to the same guidelines.

Interestingly, the 2002 Pines notes were hand written. RSO has wisely not enforced that aspect nor has it equitably enforced the "free to regional competitors" condition. Also of interest to me was the fact that the one negative competitors comment from this year's GCFR concerned inconsistent distances in the notes and was made by an RSO board member.
As in blind rallys, I believe one should approach the first few stages with some caution in order to assess the individual style of the note or route-book writer. The familiarization pass should do just that. Give us a "feel" for the notes.
You would likely have to ask my driver, but unlike most co-drivers, I can't say I've ever called a stage at 100%. I'm frequently a bit behind or ahead and I get lost, even in my own notes, more that I'd like to admit. I think the biggest skill a codriver can have is getting a good driver. I've done that.
Cheers,
Peter
 

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> "free to regional competitors" condition.

Interesting...i do remember paying like 150 for the notes last year...wonder if this year will be the same.

Peter,
if it's any consilation i found the notes from GFCR to be great. While there were a few changes we made on the familiarization passes (there always are). i found the notes to be consistant and well prepped.

I do like the notes familiarization passes. it does allow the teams to get a good feel for the notes before hittin the stages in anger

However...what do i know? it was only my 3rd rally!!

Chris Martin
 

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>> "free to regional competitors" condition.
>
>Interesting...i do remember paying like 150 for the notes last
>year...wonder if this year will be the same.
>
Let me get this straight. PMSC *had* to give it away to regional entries, but MLRC (the only other local organiser in OPRC these days) got money for the same product on the regional portion they organise (I am assuming the responder refers to Pines, just a guess)? I never understood how adding Baie to the OPRC lowered costs to low budget entry level competitors, but anyway....
 

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>>> "free to regional competitors" condition.
>>
>>Interesting...i do remember paying like 150 for the notes
>last
>>year...wonder if this year will be the same.
>>
>Let me get this straight. PMSC *had* to give it away to
>regional entries, but MLRC (the only other local organiser in
>OPRC these days) got money for the same product on the
>regional portion they organise (I am assuming the responder
>refers to Pines, just a guess)? I never understood how adding
>Baie to the OPRC lowered costs to low budget entry level
>competitors, but anyway....

That's right...

And you are right..there's no way a 16 Hr tow to GTA based teams is within the budget for many low budget competitors.
 

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Lets keep this topic ON topic this time.
The answer to Keith's question was pointed out to us on kindly by Peter on the website. Tom McGeer and Mark Williams are making the notes with a pass for us to fix whatever we deem necessary. I dunno, maybe i'm too slow and thats why I think this is a perfectly good solution??!? Whether Baie was a good addition to the OPRC or Pines charged for notes last year has no bearing on the original question and maybe we should start a new thread for those...
 

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sorry...back on topic

i do agree with you John..but maybe we are just still too slow, and leave that extra little bit of room.

It seems the friday activities from last year have been replaced with the single pass notes familiarization. In the rallies we've run this has been a great opportunity to look over the notes, become accustom to what is a 1,2,3,4,5....crest...blah blah blah. As i think no matter what, a competitor hasn't seen or looked at these notes for probably a month prior to Tall Pines. To go out and hit stage #1 with some uncertainties is definately scary, and when you throw in the tricky weather conditions that Pines often brings, you end up with offs, which ends up with p'oed competitors...which might lead to comments heard in the past.

The familiarization pass should make for a better rally. Not only because teams will have a better understanding the notes, but they will have also seen road conditions and beable to choose tires (has been the cause of many Pines offs in the past). Both of these factors should hopefully leave more cars on the road, which will provide better competition, closer battles, and a great show for the fans (something which Castledines lacked last year with only 9 cars running at the time).
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Discussion Starter #12
OK, we're getting somewhere.

I think there is little doubt that Tom and Mark would create a pretty good set of notes to run to - once you familiarize yourself with the terminology and perception.

However, it was mentioned that tech is the same time as the familiarization passes - and that the notes should be good enough to not need the pass. (paraphrased a bit)

The as yet unanswered question is if Tom and Mark's notes will be green crewed and by whom? If a competitor familiarization run is taking place of a verification by RSO, it is hardly optional.

(That said, I'd have little hesitation running McGeers notes straight out of the box)

I'm with Peter when it comes to having never delivered a stage 100% ... but I also know that it doesn't matter how precisely on time you deliver a note that is less than accurate or does not reflect the true nature of the road ... it'll still hurt!
 

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Scrutineering at Pines usually closes around 10 or 11pm on Friday night.

I doubt we will be out on the familiarisation pass for that long.
 

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>The as yet unanswered question is if Tom and Mark's notes will
>be green crewed and by whom? If a competitor familiarization
>run is taking place of a verification by RSO, it is hardly
>optional.

That's a good question. As steward at Black Bear (reminder to self - submit the steward's report), I asked the same question about those notes. There was no green crew of them - just the familiarization pass. I'm not sure who I'd trust (out of the potentially available people) to green crew notes anyway.

Adrian
 

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The available pool of qualified people is larget than RSO is tapping, or even willing to consider. Their near exclusive reliance on members of one particular club has alienated more people than even they know.
That notwithstanding, the Pines promises to be a top event and one that will be enjoyed by the spectators and competitors alike.
 

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Williams' notes

Wouldn't really say they'll be McGeer's notes. Mark is going to write what Mark sees/thinks. The good thing about that is Mark has been preparing Jemba notes in the US this year and the notes will hopefully be more uniform with Jemba than Bellefluer's. If someone is checking the notes, John would be a good choice.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
RE: Williams' notes

>Wouldn't really say they'll be McGeer's notes. Mark is going
>to write what Mark sees/thinks.

I'd suggest that Tom McGeer is going to be more than just a chauffeur for Mark ... But Hey, we don't have to disagree on everything.

So from what you say these 'should' be experienced seat of the pants jemba-esque notes?
 

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RE: Williams' tulip notes

>I'd suggest that Tom McGeer is going to be more than just a
>chauffeur for Mark ... But Hey, we don't have to disagree on
>everything.

Tom's expertise is pacenotes, Mark understands stagenotes.

>So from what you say these 'should' be experienced seat of the
>pants jemba-esque notes?

Don't know what the organizer's have asked for. Mark is in Mexico now. Will know more when he returns. He has been working on an idea/program that includes both a tulip style routebook with stagenotes and leaves space on the page for editing that looks interesting/promising.
 

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RE: Williams' tulip notes

Hi All,

I would like to assure all competitors that the Pines is listening to your concerns. We are well aware of last year's issues and are working very hard to correct them. We are continually attempting to improve the event and are learning from past experiences and this year's event will be no exception.

Tom McGeer and Mark Williams have been selected to create the Organizer Supplied Descriptive Stage Notes for this year. The Organizing Committee is confident that this team has the experience and capability to produce Descriptive Stage Notes with the quality and accuracy that are now being demanded by the competitors.

Since the Organizer Supplied Notes will be given to all competitors as part of their entry fee, we plan on offering all competitors at least one pass over all of the stage roads to allow them to validate the organizer supplied descriptive stage notes. Competitors will be permitted to make changes to the organizer supplied stage notes to suit their individual driving styles.

I have spoken with RSO and they have informed me that they will of course be greencrewing the tulips and routebook. They will NOT be greencrewing the Organizer Supplied Notes as all teams will have a chance to drive the stages at least once. RSO believes, as does the Pines, that notes are a personal and subjective thing unique to each driver and co-driver. By doing the Notes Familiarization Pass this will assist teams in making the slight changes they may see to fit their driving style. Team A is bound to find fault in Team B's notes. That is just the way it is. Short of actual full recce this is the best way for Pines to handle the situation.

The Pines faces a number of challenges that makes full recce difficult. The major challenge the Pines faces is the amount of daylight. The amount of daylight in late November and the course configuration does not permit for two passes over every stage during daylight hours without extending the event by an additional day. In an effort to keep costs lower for competitors we have chosen to keep the compact event schedule and provide Organizer Supplied Descriptive Stage Notes. Unfortunately, the additional costs of required to produce Jemba notes far exceed our budget capabilities for this year.

Public Relations is also another major concern. The Pines deals with over 9 townships to obtain road permissions and is on shaky ground with some of them. To permit rally cars during the Notes Familiarization Pass would most certainly stress our relationship with some of these townships and the roads residents. The event will NOT be permitting rally cars on the Notes Familiarization Pass. The Pines is moving more and more away from poorly maintained Ministry of Natural Resource Roads to better maintained township roads and we must be sure to maintain good relationship for the long term health of the event. A rally car often looks and sounds like it is going faster than it is to local residents even though it may not be. We hope competitors can appreciate our situation and help us to maintain good relations in this respect. Without our roads we have no event and this is why the Pines will be very serious this year about maintaining good relations during the Notes Familiarization Pass.

It is with the best intentions and much deliberation that the Pines committee has made these decisions. We feel that our decisions will result in many improvements over previous years and are an excellent compromise over full recce.

The Supp Regs will be posted on the website in the next day and will outline clearly the details surrounding the Notes Familiarization Pass.

We hope to see you all at the 2005 Rally of the Tall Pines!

Richard
______________________________
Richard Hepburn - Coordinator
Rally of the Tall Pines: 25-26 November 2005
http://www.tallpinesrally.com
 
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