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Faster Mabricator
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>Great if you're doing the SCCA series. Kinda sucks if
>you're still planning to to the CARS series.

What do you mean? The CARS series is better off without the British drivers. Maybe great if you want to spectate the US rallies but as a competitor, North Americans can't compete with the best British drivers and one of our series has already been disrupted by them. Our rides with the manufacturer's teams have been lost to foriegners. Let SCCA have them.
 

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Quoted:
"What do you mean? The CARS series is better off without the
>British drivers. Maybe great if you want to spectate the US
>rallies but as a competitor, North Americans can't compete
>with the best British drivers and one of our series has
>already been disrupted by them. Our rides with the
>manufacturer's teams have been lost to foriegners. Let SCCA
>have them."


I really dislike this idea that some people have about reducing the level of compitition rahter than improving their own driving. I like to race the best, I learn from them and get better. Wanting to win with out good compitition is dishonest to your self.

I would perfer that efforts are put forth to make a level class such as one make of cars all built to a controled spec rather than try to keep participation down.

Derek Bottles
 

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Faster Mabricator
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>Quoted:
>I really dislike this idea that some people have about
>reducing the level of compitition rahter than improving
>their own driving. I like to race the best, I learn from
>them and get better. Wanting to win with out good
>compitition is dishonest to your self.

Derek,
Let me know when you can beat Tom McGeer, Pat Richard, Sprongl and ACP.

>Quoted:
>I would perfer that efforts are put forth to make a level
>class such as one make of cars all built to a controled spec
>rather than try to keep participation down.

The British are coming with Prodrive's newest and most expensive rallycars. Are you sure you can afford one to meet their spec?

If not, buy the Suzuki Swift GT and run P1 or a Nissan 2000SX or what ever they call it in Canada and race Roger Sanderson and Robin Fleugl. A true spec class won't happen in Canada for a long time.


Nobody said reduce the level of competition in Canada. It has been growning just fine and is better than ever. Sprongls return, Thomson winning 2 final stages at Charlevoix, ACP leading rallies, Pat winning the championship, McGeer perhaps to run the full season next year. Don't tell me you know all they do about driving.
 

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400 flat to crest
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>>Quoted:
>>I really dislike this idea that some people have about
>>reducing the level of compitition rahter than improving
>>their own driving. I like to race the best, I learn from
>>them and get better. Wanting to win with out good
>>compitition is dishonest to your self.
>
>Derek,
>Let me know when you can beat Tom McGeer, Pat Richard,
>Sprongl and ACP. (and how to spell)

Dave Shindle, what a snotty comment. Look at your spelling of Tompson before you make pointlessly snide comments which have nothing to do with the point raised. What's your excuse for such a sloppy error when the correct spelling is immediately to the left!!!! OK? Apologize to Derek, if you're a man.

And he did not suggest that he could, he stated that he enjoys racing with the best and he learns from them, and he gets better.
And in that he is right, the driving skill shown by the top British crews is simply_better_ than the domestic crews, and they are also somewhat faster. They are different things, and it is good to watch _good- driving IF:::::IF!!! one is interested in improving ones skills, and I know Derek is interested in improving his driving skills.
>
>>Quoted:
>>I would perfer that efforts are put forth to make a level
>>class such as one make of cars all built to a controled spec
>>rather than try to keep participation down.
>
>The British are coming with Prodrive's newest and most
>expensive rallycars. Are you sure you can afford one to meet
>their spec?
He did not suggest that we should all try to mimic the level of expenditure which all the recent nonsense has risen to.
He may have been beginning to open the debate to some preliminary discussion on how a define FUN spec class might look like, and since the Canadian series and it's leadership are _not_ know nothing, never have been competitiors like our beloved "Leiter", and as Canada is just up the road 95 miles North of here, maybe it would be smart to discuss things with the clearly more open, progressive and alert folks up there.
>
>If not, buy the Suzuki Swift GT and run P1 or a Nissan
>2000SX or what ever they call it in Canada and race Roger
>Sanderson and Robin Fleugl. A true spec class won't happen
>in Canada for a long time.
>
>
>Nobody said reduce the level of competition in Canada. It
>has been growning just fine and is better than ever.
>Sprongls return, Tompson winning 2 final stages at
>Charlevoix, ACP leading rallies, Pat winning the
>championship, McGeer perhaps to run the full season next
>year. Don't tell me you know all they do about driving.
He didn't. And he didn't imply or infer he did or does.

However, results alone does nor equate to one persons "knowledge", as is obvious from the recent results it very very often shows simply expenditure of massive amounts of money.
The technical superiorty of the modern 4wd turbo charged cars completely obscures the question of the drivers Knowledge.

Surely you know that. Don't you?

And the US series has not been ruined by the Pommie Basteeeerds, and Irish crazies, it has been ruined primarily by the weak, spineless rearrangement of all the rules to favor them.

They are all within their rights to ask for anything and everything, it is up to Federation to mitigate and prevent the outright buying of the series and as you well know, SCCA under "der Spitzners" blighted regime, it has done the opposite.

And don't give me any crap if I may have overlooked a spelling error!

PS I know Derek is perfectly able to buy a ride from Prodrive if he chose to as is the mode, however he is a smart fellow, he knows there is no point in wasting hundreds of thousands of his money for nothing.
It proves nothing.
You should note that he, like many of us in the Seattle area, admires what one man in North America has done, cause he got his start right here so we all sorta follow his progress: Pat Richard is the only man to measure himself against any of the rest of the world in the last 10 years.
And interestinly Pat chose to compete in a OneMake series so that _his_ driving would be what decided results. He showed he knows something.

Congratulations Pat! And Call! Your engine has been done since April!!!

>
>
>





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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British Invasion

Hey, bring 'em on. Seems like most times any of our people head down there they kick the British drivers' a**es anyway...:p

Dave: it's an NX2000 - same as south of the border.

'Cheerio',

Robin
 

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Discussion Starter #9
RE: British Invasion

you all missed Paul's point, and mine,
which had nothing to do with the driver crossover (which is good, IN BOTH directions)

the point paul made, was too bad because the CARS calendar has no positive external alignments (not even SCCA, as far as I can tell by Defi/WW conflicts, or LSPR and Charlevoix a week later). If the CARS calendar were aligned with.. say... anything, it might be nice for Canadian drivers who actually wanted to do something elsewhere. I am saying knowing full well that efforts were made to align it with SCCA, but it didn't necessarily work out in 2002.

With alignment, then one wouldn't have to choose between 2 things, if one were in a position to make such a choice (not implying anything here). In other words, a calendar such as BRC, aligned with JWRC and SCCA, means that they are thinking about getting the best people to show up at all times.

That was my point (and I think Pauls), anyways. Get the best people to show up at canadian events, like americans at Charlevoix or Quebec. Or schedule the 'wrc' candidate so teams can actually come.

I welcome anyone to come to Canada, and vice versa. The whole point is, they cant come if there is not alignment, and we cant go.

-Pat
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Canada's hope for WRC round

Should Rally de Quebec and Charlevoix combine forces to become Canada's hope for a WRC round. I didn't think Charlevoix was all that great this year and La Malbaie isn't really big enough. How about Quebec City being the HQ and transit one day east to Charlevoix for those roads (instead of doing them all twice or three times) and then transit west for a day for the stages near Port Neuf. Quebec City is large enough to host it and has the airport anyway.
 

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RE: British Invasion

With all due respect to Pat and Paul, each of whom are doing a great job and are guys that I admire, as far as the scheduling problems, thems the breaks. There are only so many weekends.

This year, CARS had 9 national events, SCCA had 10 ProRally events, JWRC had 6 events, BRC had 7 events. Given that many rally locations can only available during particular times of the year (because of weather or other users of the land or whatever), I am surprised that the calendars don't have more conflicts.

It would be nice. It would also be nice if there was geographic coordination between the calendars in North America.

alan
 

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Faster Mabricator
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RE: British Invasion

>It would also be nice if there was
>geographic coordination between the calendars in North
>America.

I did most Nationals in both countries this year and drove to many of them. Which had geographical conflicts? I know I'm looking forward to having to come out to western Canada twice next year to make the 3 events scheduled but hospitality and the awesome scenery will make it worth both trips.

Alan, maybe you should move to a central location or east coast to get to go to all the rallies :7
 

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Brits

Dave-

Sorry to have pissed you off, I have nothing against you personaly (rather now that I have some idea who you are, let me say good job, I am impressed by how well you and ACP have gone) but I still disagree with what you wrote.

I think it is more likely I will win a rally than learn to spell, something about dislexia. Lucky for me it is mainly spelling that is messed up, reading is just fine.

The scedualing issues are likely to get worse as we add more championships such as CNAR and WSRC, but it is nice everyone is tring to work together.

Derek
 

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RE: British Invasion

>With alignment, then one wouldn't have to choose between 2
>things, ...
>That was my point (and I think Pauls), anyways. ...

Actually, my original point was narrower still - I thought it sucked for you (Pat) if you were planning to do both BRC and SCRC again next year. But the wider point of crossover for other people is valid too.

Coordinating schedules is very difficult. CARS and SCCA did work together, and eliminated most of the conflicts, but it wasn't possible to eliminate all of them. It gets harder the more different series you start to consider. As for Defi and Wild West, I know that there was a long discussion about moving Defi, and they are well and truly stuck where they are.

It's also hard to know which conflicts are relevant. I got lots of flack from American teams when we put Totem on their thanksgiving weekend last year - I figured that the day off would help, but it apparently imperilled a number of marriages. So this year it's one week earlier, putting it on top of Network Q, so now Subie Gal, John Felstead and Glenn Wallace can't make it.


>I welcome anyone to come to Canada, and vice versa. ...

Here here!


Paul
 

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RE: Brits

I don't mean to step on any toes here, but I'm going to throw in my comments. It's fairly long, but I think I've got some good ideas. First, let me point out that I am not yet a driver - but I'm working on getting a car together for 2003. I'm relatively young, and have some well-defined goals of where I want to go in rallying...following in Pat's footsteps to Europe a few years down the road is one of them. These are my thoughts as a person who is just getting started in the sport, and has been involved in many other professional sports (World Cup mountain biking, etc.)

>>The CARS series is better off without the British drivers. Maybe >>great if you want to spectate the US rallies but as a competitor, >>North Americans can't compete with the best British.

So how are we ever going to compete at their level if we don't have benchmarks to compare to? Should we just be content with the abilities we have at the moment? I think we should be embracing these European drivers, learning everything we can from them, and building on our abilities so we can match them - not only on home turf, but abroad if we so desire.

I can't say for sure, but I bet you McGeer and other top Canadians would be interested in seeing how they compare. The comment above says "North Americans can't compete with the best British". Well, why not? It's because North Americans have never had the opportunity to compete against them before. It seems to be only the past couple of years where the brits have come over in force. Give it a year or so, and I'll bet you'll see the level of driving come up 10-fold in North America (in fact, it has probably stepped up a notch already). Pat's gone and tested himself over in Europe, and shown he can drive at their level, so who's to say others can't as well?

From my personal observations, it seems like many people in NA are happy to let rallying be an obscure, relatively unprofessional form of motorsport. I think this is a selfish attitude to have. "Keeping it to ourselves" is not a good approach, and will only hurt the future of the sport. Look at how popular WRC is becoming over here because of the television coverage. The Canadian Championship has the opportunity to grow immensely in this climate of renewed interest.

Now, I agree it is still important to keep the sport accessible for new entrants, and I think this is what the production and Group 2 classes should be for. There should be a ladder of progression...from entry level up to the Open class. This would allow Open class to become more of a "pro" category, attracting the top drivers from Canada, USA, and Europe. With the increased exposure and international presence, more factory-backed teams would be jumping on board...leading to more factory drives for Canada's top drivers. Increased popularity would also help privateers to acquire sponsorship to assist in their efforts.

>Our rides with the manufacturer's teams have been lost to >foriegners.
SO???? GO GET THEM BACK! We can't take the stance that "Oh, the euros are better, and they've taken all our glory."

We have to say, "Ok, sh|t...they've come over and realized how cool our rallying is, and they are whipping our butts. What can I learn from them, and how can I beat them?"

I, for one, will welcome the competition...even if it means I have to come runner-up to the British Champion a couple times...at least then I'll know where I stand and what I have to do to beat him. Wouldn't it be cool to have North American drivers going over to Europe and winning THIER championships one day? There are a whole host of young drivers who are aiming to do just that...
 

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Faster Mabricator
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RE: Brits

Derek,

I'm not/wasn't pissed off. And no need to credit me for ACPs driving. He'd have been faster if he didn't have me in there screaming that he was going to kill us. :eek: Just kidding but he's done well without me too.

Still don't understand how you expect to learn from drivers you are competing against and have already gone home by the time you have finished the rally. I haven't seen the US drivers get any better by having the Brits in the SCCA events, just beat. And the controversies and double standards they've brought hasn't helped either.
My suggestion is to get one-to-one instruction at Tim ONeil's Rally School (ACP swears by it) or I understand that Sprongl may be opening a school.

>I can't say for sure, but I bet you McGeer and other top Canadians would be interested in seeing how they compare.

McGeer has. Cherokee Trails he finished 6th behind Brits and Polish drivers, Maine he finished 2nd to a Brit.
 

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RE: Brits

Way to go Warwick.!
the only thing is..to go race oversea you need a ##### load of money...wel..for some in this sport it mite be noting..but for most of us...

it is only possible by doing exchange whit drivers...thats very cool..like wen Sylvain Erickson trade car whit a Belgium driver went to belgium for a rally and the Belgium guy came down for a canadien rally on Erickson car. thast very fun and not to expensiv...the only thing is..you need to have a car that somone will want to trade whit you ?..i dont think i could exchange my Justy for a 206 in france :+ one day...i will have a tradable car and kick some ass overseas LOL...

sorry for my poor spelling...im not to ggo din english....

Cheers!



Ont va lavoire notre permis d'bières !!!!
 

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RE: Brits

Hey - bring 'em on. The main problem is that it's actually more intelligent to compete against the Europeans on their home ground, as the field is broad over there and a spec class like the 206 cup is about the same cost as a budget season in Canada, especially since towing in any direction for five hours in England will pretty much land you in the ocean. Trying to compete against an imported, slightly stripped-out GpA car is more expensive and intimidating (we all stood around with our mouths open and drooled on the Corolla at Charlevoix scrutineering - that is a $600,000 hand-made car - although thanks to the unforgiving conditions we still beat him). The UK drivers are very good, yes, and they got that way by having a lot of competition around them in well-matched cars. Pat and I talked about this at Voyageurs - if we had more battles like that one we'd both get faster. Peter Thomson (note that this is the correct spelling and it is incorrect at left) and I have had a couple of great sessions at regionals, trading seconds each stage. That's what spec classes are about too - Burns and McRae are both grads of the Peugeot Cup.

Until we have access to that constant, tight competition, the best way to get better is seat time plus self-improvement. Yes - everybody go to Tim O'Neil's rally school. It transformed me. Note that all of the top WRC drivers still train - Burns goes to the Forest Experience School I think for a combination of testing and instruction.

In some sense I share Dave's sentiment - having fully-developed senior UK drivers come over and beat us is frustrating, but only because they have access to the constant high level of competition in the UK that allowed them to get so good. I think that the competition in Canada is actually excellent right now and will be for 2003, and I look forward to all of us improving.

Oh, except legendary 57 year-old American drivers making guest appearances in the factory cars they manage should be banned in Canada...

ACP
www.musketeerrcing.com
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 

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Faster Mabricator
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RE: Brits

>Oh, except legendary 57 year-old American drivers making guest >appearances in the factory cars they manage should be banned in >Canada...

Don't worry Andrew, you'll have plenty of victories to relish. Besides, JB is God. Consider Charlevoix as a victory like I'm trying to think about it as a finish.

>Peter Thomson (note that this is the correct spelling and it is >incorrect at left)

SpellCheck this: BoneHead Vanlandingham.

>Way to go Warwick.!

Most of what he said is already and has been the case in Canada. Wait and see if he delivers what he expects and how deep his pockets are when (if) he starts driving. Its prety bold to say you haven't competed yet but will able to drive with the best. Consider it a challenge. We are here to help you.
 

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RE: Event schedule coordination

Which events had geographic conflicts? Uh, Defi and WW :p

I am talking about stuff like having the west coast SCCA Pro events grouped together and coordinating that with the western leg of the CARS Nationals.

Anyway, I just said that it would be nice.

As I said, I think schedule conflicts are inevitable and sometimes you just have to make a choice. When I started co-driving for Ross and found out that he was such a fast driver, I decided to give up my run at the BC TSD Paper championship (which would have been an easy win since the other guys who run Paper class don't seem to run the gravel events), mostly because of schedule conflicts.

You see, I am a wimp. I will probably not be doing the Totem TSD next weekend because I am driving to Kananaskis (about 800 miles each way) this weekend and don't think I can take driving up to Cache Creek, driving a two-day snow rally, then drive home immediately afterward.

alan
 
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