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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Looking at Jean-George Marcotte's ( www.rallyscoring.com ) excellent result pages I had to ask:

Is Billy Bacon a Superman or are 4x4 turbo guys lame ducks?

GROUP F RULES !!
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Stage 12
Pos. Result Diff Gaps Car Driver / Car Cl. Cl.P % OvP
1 10:06 93 Km/H 10 Bacon/Swift P2 1 5
2 10:08 0:02 0:02 5 Iorio/Impreza O 1 0 4
3 10:10 0:04 0:02 8 Levac/WRX O 2 0 2
4 10:12 0:06 0:02 6 Thomson/WRX STI N4 1 0 1
5 10:14 0:08 0:02 12 Block/WRX STI N4 2 1 9
6 10:16 0:10 0:02 4 Pérusse/Évo VI O 3 1 3
7 10:35 0:29 0:19 2 Sprongl/Swift P2 2 4 8
8 10:36 0:30 0:01 7 Labrie/WRX P4 1 4 6
9 11:03 0:57 0:27 11 Cassidy/WRX O 4 9 7
10 11:13 1:07 0:10 13 L'Estage/Golf G2 1 11 15
11 11:23 1:17 0:10 20 Gardner/Quattro S2 O 5 12 11
12 11:37 1:31 0:14 9 Dubé/Impreza O 6 15 10
13 12:13 2:07 0:36 18 Levesque/Corolla AWD P2 3 20 14
14 12:41 2:35 0:28 22 MacKenzie/Civic P3 1 25 12
15 12:58 2:52 0:17 19 Madon/Impreza O 7 28 13
 

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>Is Billy Bacon a Superman or are 4x4 turbo guys lame ducks?
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>Stage 12
>Pos. Result Diff Gaps Car Driver / Car Cl. Cl.P % OvP
>1 10:06 93 Km/H 10 Bacon/Swift P2 1 5
>2 10:08 0:02 0:02 5 Iorio/Impreza O 1 0 4
>3 10:10 0:04 0:02 8 Levac/WRX O 2 0 2
>4 10:12 0:06 0:02 6 Thomson/WRX STI N4 1 0 1
>5 10:14 0:08 0:02 12 Block/WRX STI N4 2 1 9
>6 10:16 0:10 0:02 4 Pérusse/Évo VI O 3 1 3
>7 10:35 0:29 0:19 2 Sprongl/Swift P2 2 4 8
>8 10:36 0:30 0:01 7 Labrie/WRX P4 1 4 6
>9 11:03 0:57 0:27 11 Cassidy/WRX O 4 9 7
>10 11:13 1:07 0:10 13 L'Estage/Golf G2 1 11 15

You're kidding, right Topi? Prior to SS12 Bacon had no better a stage finish than 7th, most between 8th and 12th (which is damned fine rallying for sure), but then he leaps up to first about a minute faster than Sprongl (who he'd been close to all rally) out of nowhere? It sure makes me think that result is an uncontested flyer. I'd surmise it's uncontested because adding a minute to his score changes nothing in the P2 classification and only changes overall amongst cars from other classes in the bottom half of the top ten.

Now, take away the apparent flyer and the ten second road penalty and you have a rousing ONE second P2 win, Bacon over Sprongl! For that kind of story I might have filled out a scoring inquiry on myself!

Tha above is nothing more than conjecture by a simple-minded driver. Should any grievous error in mathematics, reasoning, logic, deductive reasoning or anything else we know codrivers have more of show this to be completely off-base then kindly consider the source and ignore it. ;-)

Halley ...
RWD and normally-aspirated ROCKS! Let's get it on in Group F, uhhhhh, right after 100AW!
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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Hmm,
Lets see,
Bill was consistently second fastest to Pat Richard on Sno*Drift on the Saturday. Superman? or Pat Richard "lame duck"
Pines 2004. 2 Eels Lake stages - second fastes OA in the Suzuki. Superman?

The results were checked carefully by the scorers and the other competitors. Ask the car that started one minute ahead of Bill if the Suzuki arrived at the finish control at the recorded time (or more importantly, did Bill leave with the car ahead) Sadly, that might involve examining the facts rather than conjecture from a distance. Why spoil a good idea with the truth.
I have it on pretty good authority that the final stage was an "experience to be enjoyed"
If you are interested in what actually happened, perhaps this bit of observation might add to your story.
Frank had a flat on SS 6 and lost close to four minutes, going down over two minutes to Bill's Suzuki. He was able to pull most of that back, going into the final stage with a roughly 30 second deficit. The co-driver knew there were road penalties incurred at the first ATC, so Bill decided he had to peddle it pretty hard to keep a cushion, but still had to finish. There were no close battles for any other positions, so most teams backed off to finish.
On the stage, with a route book that was abysmal by any standard, where one would normally have at least a "confidence lift", Bill pushed harder than usual. When the car crossed the finish board, the co-driver wrote the seconds in the route book and on the run up to the control car, recorded the full minute.
The stage crew credited them with a time two seconds quicker than the co-driver recorded. A normal margin of error.
When a team puts in a better performance than average, others want to throw it out and claim it never happened. When the same driver puts on a poorer performance than average and say - spends 20 minutes in a snow bank, do his fellow competitors rise up and say " That couldn't have happened - take 20 minutes off his time".
Bottom line: It was an incredible performance by Bill. There was no flyer. Neither Bill nor his codriver need to resort to those tactics to enjoy the sport.
I guess it is human nature to think the worst of people, but I've always liked the old Chinese proverb that stated: "Beware of those who make themselves look taller by cutting off others' heads"
 

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3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
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>Bottom line: It was an incredible performance by Bill. There
>was no flyer. Neither Bill nor his codriver need to resort to
>those tactics to enjoy the sport.

Whoa - Peter! I'm a big fan of 2WDs even when they don't outrun AWD turbos and I've never accused anyone of manufacturing a flyer or even heard how a team might create one. But since flyers are usually whole minute errors that creep into scores as they are copied from stage logs to the final sheet and that SS12 result is wholly out of character with the rest of the rally it's not unreasonable to imagine that the stage ranking was suspect. I know if I was running against him and a score that odd appeared I'd be tempted to file a scoring inquiry - unless any change made no difference whatever in where I finished in the class.

If that's a righteous stage time then hallelujah and great job Mr. Bacon! I certainly wasn't trying to impeach anyone's reputation - just wanted to give my old buddy Topi a little crap.

Halley ...
RWD and normally-aspirated ROCKS! Let's get it on in Group F, uhhhhh, right after 100AW!
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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We watched Bacon at Tall Pines in the yellow Suzuki. He was pretty damn good. I can see this one being correct.

However, I would like to hear more detailed explanation of Cirisan's flyer from SnoDrift SS2. JC you are my boy but I have a hard time agreeing with that one.
 

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>However, I would like to hear more detailed explanation of
>Cirisan's flyer from SnoDrift SS2. JC you are my boy but I
>have a hard time agreeing with that one.

Did we miss your scoring query on that, or did the query prove the time to be valid. Funny how your (not you, personally, just in general) buddies' times are always 'great driving', but others' are obvious flyers.
 

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>Did we miss your scoring query on that, or did the query prove
>the time to be valid.

I made no official query, just asking questions.

I think a mistake was made here.

Funny how your (not you, personally,
>just in general) buddies' times are always 'great driving',
>but others' are obvious flyers.

JC IS my buddy and he did drive great. But think about it.

he went from being moderately quick in his G2 golf, to taking a year off, to getting a PGT car, to less than a second from beating Pat in his first two stages from way back on the road?????Driving on the ice when Pat was on the snow???? I have a hard time swallowing that.

JC drove great and did very well in his new machinery. However, I don't think that he was quite as fast as his 2nd stage time results. Look at his other stages, add a minute to his stage2 time, and see what makes sense.
 

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>I think a mistake was made here.
>
>JC IS my buddy and he did drive great. But think about it.
>
>he went from being moderately quick in his G2 golf, to taking
>a year off, to getting a PGT car, to less than a second from
>beating Pat in his first two stages from way back on the
>road?????Driving on the ice when Pat was on the snow???? I
>have a hard time swallowing that.
>
>JC drove great and did very well in his new machinery.
>However, I don't think that he was quite as fast as his 2nd
>stage time results. Look at his other stages, add a minute to
>his stage2 time, and see what makes sense.
>
>

I agree on all counts. Just pointing out that these things happen. Sometimes a flyer gets missed (As a competitor, you only look at the scores in your world. We have to look at all of them.). Sometimes the time is just good enough that we can't arbitrarily 'correct' it. It then falls upon the competitor (who may have additional knowledge of the situation) to inquire and provide evidence. None of us wants to certify a wrong score. It just happens.
 

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I agree, I was surprised too when I saw the official scores & everyone else was 30sec back...

According to Josh(codriver extraordinare) the recorded time was 2.something seconds fast.

I believe that was the stage Pat backed into the tree & he also said he missed a junction. I found this out by reading his post re Shepard being started in front of him on RA forums. So I was reallllllly geeked, and then found that out & it made alot more sense. Also, Ask Mad Mike, as we caught him & 2 other people on that stage- he said: "please go ahead of us, you made well over 3mins on me". I think that was the exact quote.

It was also the only stage I can remember driving totally clean.

The AWD is wicked grippy on that stuff. That was not how I wanted to drive the whole rally. I slowed way down after that. Too much cuz I gave away 3rd overall to Ottey/McGarvey.

I think it's right. I cant doubt my navvie, can I?

JC
#595
www.gnimotorsports.com
 

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Jake is still my rip snortin Husky sportin pasty eatin girly mistreatin sauna trippin hi sign flippin Nissan tearin cool hat wearin buddy from Da Nord...


JC
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www.gnimotorsports.com
 

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Wanted to followup on what Peter said regarding their performance at Perce Neige. Bill is damn fast in whatever he drives(Acura, Swift, WRX). He finished fourth OA at STPR(I believe)in his first outing in his WRX and his stage times at Sno-Drift showed his speed as well.

I really appreciate how Bill always asks me if I'm catching him, and graciously offers to pull over if we do! ;-)

Frederic Labrie, who is a very, very fast guy in a P-4 car was dumbfounded when Bill passed him and actually vouched for Bill's speed when his final stage time was called into question.

Look for great things from Mssr's Bacon and Watt in future events.

Cheers! John
 

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Uncle Joe said:

>Sometimes a flyer gets missed (As a competitor, you
>only look at the scores in your world. We have to look at all
>of them.). Sometimes the time is just good enough that we
>can't arbitrarily 'correct' it. It then falls upon the
>competitor (who may have additional knowledge of the
>situation) to inquire and provide evidence. None of us wants
>to certify a wrong score. It just happens.

The one and ONLY beneficial flyer that has made it into the final results from my four decades in this sport was a doozy. TEN MINUTES!!! No sh.. uhhh, kidding! Sad thing is, it was the last stage we finished at Rim 2003 and one short of the number required to be classed a finisher. While the DNF could easily be blamed for the lack of an inquiry - and possible subsequent overturning of such an error - I bet that it would have remained uncontested even if we had finished since comparing our Del Sur time IN with the time we were awarded for getting off that muddy mess showed nothing terribly out of whack. What no one but all the teams who had to pass us on-stage knew was that we did most of that stage in first gear at max revs and even got stuck once!

But back on topic - if that Suzuki passed a car on that final stage then Hallelujah indeed! That's a great stage and one that should find mention in Bacon's competition resume/CV.

Halley ...
RWD and normally-aspirated ROCKS! Let's get it on in Group F, uhhhhh, right after 100AW!
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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"Beware of those who make themselves look taller by cutting off others' heads"

haha

that should be posted at the top of every notice board at the USA rallies...
 

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PN involved a highly entertaining dice between Bacon/Watt, Labrie/Labrie, Cassidy/Getchell, Sprongl/Sprongl, and Block/Goldfarb that spanned the entire event. One crew would gain a few seconds on one stage, then lose em on the next. The snow-caked icy roads had remarkable grip...except when there wasn't any, in which case the snowbank gods ruled the day. Fifth thru 7th places were separated by less than one minute after 300-plus km of stages. Is that great, competitive racing, or what?

These crews turned in comparable times despite driving remarkably different cars: Open, P4, P2, Gp N. The grippy/slippy conditions on PN's sweet, flowing stages really suited the Swifts -- smoothness, commitment, and consistency counted as much as brute power. PN rewarded a combination of judicious car control and long-term application of serious gonads -- when was the last time YOU ran a 50km stage, blind, on snow, at night?

To question Bacon/Watt's results, especially by people who weren't there to chase em (or BE chased by them), smells like sour grapes and is just plain silly. They simply spanked their little Suzuki to the max, and having been there, I have all the respect in the world for that.

If you want to know about driving at top speed on snow and ice, come to Canada (and Quebec in particular) to taste it yourself. Too bad there aren't more classic winter events like PN, Rallye Quebec, and Charlevoix (may the the last 2 RIP, or better still, come back SOON).

Congrats to all the crews who finished despite PN's "magnetic snowbanks."


Cheers,

Dave G
 

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Studs allowed only for 2WD Coupe de Quebec teams, and then only DOT approved ones.

Everybody else ran on qute the motley collection of street snows -- various Hakkas, Yoko IG 10s and K2s, Michelin X-Ice, Bridgestone Blizzaks, and who knows what else. One top team ran early on Michelin C5 rally snows, and barely made it back to service to change em out for something else.

Dave G
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
- Too bad Billy isn't in Finland or Sweden.. Then he really could "bring-in-the-bacon"

- The manager of "Monster Motor Sports of Europe" aka Suzuki factory team leader - Risto Laine - would be running to get Mr Bacon's signature for the next years contract...
 

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Don't forget that Sprongl/Sprongl were consistently quicker in the other Swift. The combination of a flat tire, coupled with Bill's consistency and then going max attack on the final stage tipped in the scales in Bill's favour this time.
I do expect Bill to get quicker. Remember he has to listen to me chirping at him not to crash the car.
Cheers, all,
Peter
 

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RE: Chirping?

Gee Peter, chirping isn't the word I'd have picked.
But I know you aren't afraid to speak up.
(darned drivers-turned-navies)
Good goin.
rz
 

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RE: Chirping?

We were standing at the second last corner of the last stage and my watch showed Bacon about 30s up on Sprongl, so I believe the time to be correct. As noted no-one else seemed to be pushing. Anyone who got that far in the rally without going off had probably been playing carefully all day.

Studs were allowed for the Quebec regional competitors but interestingly it didn't make them look a lot faster.

Total stage km was 233. Last leg was 83km of stage and 44km of transit. Overall ratio was 233km of stage to 200km of transit.

Congratulations to Jean Chevarier and his whole crew for what looked like an event that went off like clockwork.

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 
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