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Left seat and not British!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Through the tireless efforts of your Performance Rally Director (yup, herr Spitzmeister) and Art Brown of Sunoco Race Fuels, Sunoco will be bringing 100 and 104 Octane unleaded fuel to the Trespassers Wil/100 Acre Wood ClubRally National Championship weekend in Missouri. This was not an easy feat as there's just no cause to supply this kind of UNLEADED fuel in the area. LOTS of roundy pounders using 104, but it's got lots of lead (you'll be running in lead mining country, BTW, so they LIKE lead down there). Ron Wick, the Sunoco Distributor in Western ILLINOIS will be bringing the appropriate amounts of fuel based on the faxes that Art Brown gets. We'll have an order sheet up on www.100aw.org as soon as we get a copy, but feel free to grab one elsewhere and fax it to Art Brown at Sunoco.

PLEASE DON'T TOW ACROSS COUNTRY WITH PLASTIC JUGS OF VOLATILE RACING FUEL! That's about the most dangerous thing we do in this sport.

BTW I'm told this will be the last event for 104.

Kim DeMotte
Official Old Fart, etc.
 

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Too bad SCCA wants us too use the pee water from Sunoco. I personally would choose Trick or VP. I think most of the heating problems in the (manufacturers)open cars last season was due to the 100 GT forced upon them. I'd rather haul my own.

Bob Campbell
[email protected]
BCR Rallysport
Colorado Springs, CO
 

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Left seat and not British!
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
100 Acre Wood: SUNOCO NEEDS TO KNOW HOW MUCH!!!!!!!

OK. Here's the deal. If those travelling to TW/100AW don't fax in requests for more than a total of 30 (thirty) gallons, Sunoco isn't going to bring any.

The pre-event form is on the web site http://www.100aw.org/sunoco.pdf and needs to be faxed to Art Brown ASAP. We will cancel this order on 2/17 if quantities are not sufficient to permit the distributor to make the run (he comes from Highland, IL).

PLEASE DON'T TOW ACROSS THIS FAIR LAND WITH 5 GALLON CONTAINERS OF VOLATILE RACE FUEL.

(If you can't tell...that's a pet peeve of mine)

Kim DeMotte
Official Old Fart, etc.
 

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RE: 100 Acre Wood: SUNOCO NEEDS TO KNOW HOW MUCH!!!!!!!

The fax I sent on 2/9 @ 11:20 am was for 30 gallons.

Are you planning on having the fuel truck in Ellington
Sat. morning, or will it stay in Salem?


BTW, I could not find unleaded premium in or around salem last
year. Most stations only carried 87 & 89 octane. I think the co-op station had 91 that was 10% ethanol.
 

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Why?

Putting my nose where it does not belong...

(And no disrespect to the effort that has gone into setting this up.)

What is the benefit to the teams to order through Sunoco?

Do they get a better than local pump gas price?
(No need to cart fuel across the country, you can always buy premium in the local area, and not everyone needs 100 or 104...)
Does Sunoco offer anything back to the competitors for supporting the brand?


I think I have completely missed the advantages gained from Sunoco's "support" of the series. (Beyond policing the Manufacturers fuel use.)

Sunoco is getting something, what are we, the rally community getting in trade?

Kim: I don't want to be a spoil sport, but I think the teams would opt to use Sunoco Fuel if they were given a good reason to do so.

See you in a few weeks,
Mike
 

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RE: Why?

Well, it seems that if you don't need 100+ octane fuel, you ignore the Sunoco offer. If you do, your choices are (1) lug many gallons of it across the country (illegal, not to mention dangerous) or (2) try to find the fuel locally. If there's not a racetrack nearby, 100+ may not be available except avgas, and that's illegal to run on the street, too.

So the advantages are: It's there, and it's 100+ octane.

Bruce
 

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RE: Why?

OK --

Most gas stations that sell 100 or 104 offer a lower price than Sunoco.

At Sno*Drift after the local guy stopped selling 104 he offered to get it for the teams that needed it. At Sno*Drift this year there was 104 within 30 miles at a lower price than Sunoco.

So for 100 Acre Wood: Kim made the effort to get the fuel some racers want, he chose to go through Sunoco. I definitely consider the effort to arrange to have the fuel some competitors want above and beyond.

If there is a Local Sunoco Station I would definately want to tap that relationship.

If there is not a local Sunoco, then what incentive, what benefit is it to the competitor, the organizer, and the local community to use Sunoco?

This issue has been raised on several occassions.

Sunoco seems to be charging premium prices for fuel and the rally community sees little benefit.

I think 100 Acre Wood is the first example of how the Sunoco stickers on all the cars has benefited the Rally Community. Sunoco is willing to haul a minimum of 30 gallons to the event, that is a benefit (seemingly small).

Other than this first small step I have seen no benefit to the Sunoco relationship.

So I'll change the question back to the more general issue: On an ongoing basis what benefit is it to have Sunoco as a ProRally Sponsor.
Is the premium price of fuel worth that benefit?

I have said this before: When Sunoco first announce their support of ProRally I went out of my way to fill-up at Sunoco Stations. It did not take me long to realize I was inconveniencing myself, with no return on my effort.

HEY -- we all want sponsors, but it would be silly of us to support someone who is not supporting us. I don't see Sunoco supporting ProRally. There seems to be little benefit to the ProRally community or to Sunoco with our current relationship.

If stickers on the side of all the cars is enough incentive for Sunoco to truck small amounts of fuel all over the country, and the manufacturers don't mind paying an extra buck a gallon to get the same fuel then maybe that is good enough, or not enough of an issue to worry about. (But is that really all anyone is getting?)

I personally want to support our sponsors. I want to buy a Subaru and a Mitsubishi, in their participation and their support of the TV show I see value, I see investment. I am even willing to overlook some of the trouble, concerns, and problems they cause because they support ProRally.

But Fram, Sunoco, who else is part of the reserved space -- I don't have any insight as to how they make ProRally a better sport.

So how does Sunoco make SCCA Performance Rally a better sport?

Mike
 

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RE: Why?

>OK --
>
>Most gas stations that sell 100 or 104 offer a lower price
>than Sunoco.
>
>At Sno*Drift after the local guy stopped selling 104 he
>offered to get it for the teams that needed it. At
>Sno*Drift this year there was 104 within 30 miles at a lower
>price than Sunoco.
>
>So for 100 Acre Wood: Kim made the effort to get the fuel
>some racers want, he chose to go through Sunoco. I
>definitely consider the effort to arrange to have the fuel
>some competitors want above and beyond.
>
>If there is a Local Sunoco Station I would definately want
>to tap that relationship.
>
>If there is not a local Sunoco, then what incentive, what
>benefit is it to the competitor, the organizer, and the
>local community to use Sunoco?
>
>This issue has been raised on several occassions.
>
>Sunoco seems to be charging premium prices for fuel and the
>rally community sees little benefit.
>
>I think 100 Acre Wood is the first example of how the Sunoco
>stickers on all the cars has benefited the Rally Community.
>Sunoco is willing to haul a minimum of 30 gallons to the
>event, that is a benefit (seemingly small).
>
>Other than this first small step I have seen no benefit to
>the Sunoco relationship.
>
>So I'll change the question back to the more general issue:
>On an ongoing basis what benefit is it to have Sunoco as a
>ProRally Sponsor.
>Is the premium price of fuel worth that benefit?
>
>I have said this before: When Sunoco first announce their
>support of ProRally I went out of my way to fill-up at
>Sunoco Stations. It did not take me long to realize I was
>inconveniencing myself, with no return on my effort.
>
>HEY -- we all want sponsors, but it would be silly of us to
>support someone who is not supporting us. I don't see
>Sunoco supporting ProRally. There seems to be little
>benefit to the ProRally community or to Sunoco with our
>current relationship.
>
>If stickers on the side of all the cars is enough incentive
>for Sunoco to truck small amounts of fuel all over the
>country, and the manufacturers don't mind paying an extra
>buck a gallon to get the same fuel then maybe that is good
>enough, or not enough of an issue to worry about. (But is
>that really all anyone is getting?)
>
>I personally want to support our sponsors. I want to buy a
>Subaru and a Mitsubishi, in their participation and their
>support of the TV show I see value, I see investment. I am
>even willing to overlook some of the trouble, concerns, and
>problems they cause because they support ProRally.
>
>But Fram, Sunoco, who else is part of the reserved space --
>I don't have any insight as to how they make ProRally a
>better sport.
>
>So how does Sunoco make SCCA Performance Rally a better
>sport?
>
>Mike

The sticker(s) on the side of the car gives the appearance that ProRally is on equal footing with WRC. Other than the costs of each event actually increasing, I'm not sure what the average competitor has gained.

Edit: Clarification, I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

Sunoco having fuel at events is something I will take advantage of because of the convenience although I certainly could bring my own and probably save a few bucks.

Some of the other stickers don't seem to have any benefit to the average competitor.

I have copies of what the contingencies where in the late 70's early 80's and many many teams were able to compete and have their "hobby" paid for by these sponsors. I consider the sport to have been a whole lot more Pro when 15-20 guys could make enough in contingencies to cover their cost of competing. Quite often just finishing an event was enough to break even. Olympus rally in 1979 refunded entry fee for every competitor that finished the rally.
 

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RE: Why?

Speaking from the perspective of a sometimes crew member I love having the Sunoco truck at the service locations. It it so convenient to drive up and sometimes walk up to the truck and get just the amount of fuel we will need. I don't have to worry about finding a local station at the right time, transporting jugs of fuel on the back of the van (Kim doesn't like the idea of driving cross-country and I've never been fond of having it on the back porch of the van as I go from service to service either),lugging them on & off the back of the van, moving jugs around to avoid extremes of temperature etc, etc. I know I can get how much I want, when I want. I can't speak to the cost factor but I think JB would agree that paying a bit more for the convenience for the crew isn't a bad thing.
heidi meyers
 

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RE: Why?

Thanks for the responses we now have two good reasons to support Sunoco:

1) They are willing to supply high octane fuel in a locations where it is difficult to find

and

2) It offers a convenience to the service crews should they choose to take advantage of this

There is the 3rd reason of policing the Manufacturers teams.

A year ago none of these reasons where evident.


A good example of bringing a sponsor in and allowing a good relationship to develop.

Now where will Fram and the others be in a year, will we be able to look at a few things and decide that they are offering some value?
Are they willing to step up support to be a valuable partner? How can the Sunoco relationship be furthered to mutual benefit?

The work never ends, the answers are not always clear, and there is never enough.

Thanks,
Mike
 

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RE: Why?

I will have to agree with the convenience for the crews, though it is also met by VP, or 76 at other events in the Southwest. I do see _someone_ being there very beneficial, though I am not clear as to the specific benefit to the sport as a whole from this specific sponsor. I know the dificulties of obtaining sponsors, but in the lack of sponsorship, the costs of being a sponsor do not decrease (don't sell the farm short cause no one is buying)... I would love to see some sort of official report as to what sponsorship has paid for (specifically Fram, Sunoco, Hawke) or what they gave to the general PRD coffers to get some protected space...
 

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Left seat and not British!
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
RE: Why?

We have reseached EVERY possibility for providing real fuel. 91 Octane is the best you're going to find around the 100 Acre Wood area, and most of it is 89. There are a couple of race tracks, but their fuel (104, 110, 116) is all leaded. Trust me. This Sunoco oprion is it.

And they're NOT going to make this trip for Mike Hurst's 30 gallons.

Kim DeMotte
Official Old Fart, etc.
 

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Big Jump 800
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I'll tell you why!

Has anyone that experienced problems which they blame on Sunoco's fuel discussed these with Art Brown or any of the Sunoco engineers to see if there's any truth/solution... or is it all just SpecialStage rumor and inuendo?

I haven't had problems with Sunoco fuel (except when we left 104 in the sun and it went bad... my fault not Sunoco's) and I appreciate the service they provide in exchange for a few square inches of my door panel that I wasn't using for anything else anyway.

If there's a real problem let's get someone ON it... if there isn't, let's drop the rumor and inuendo BS.

ps - if you ARE going to haul a bomb across country, please have the good sense to remove your SCCA stickers before the TV crews get to the scene of the explosion!

J.B. Niday
www.nidayrallysport.com
 

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RE: I'll tell you why!

So how did everyone get fuel to the race before this Sunoco service?

Any how do Club only competitors get there fuel to the rally?

The bottom line is people bring fuel with them to the rallies.

If it's illegal, then it's illegal. However, like the speed limit that law will be broken and the individual will deal with it.

I have crossed into Canada near 15 times in the past two years with 50-80 gallons on board. I've had boarder guards ask what it is and what it's for. I was given grief ONCE before Sept. 11th and have crossed a # of times since. It's race gas for the the race car is what they're told and I'm let out and back into the US everytime.

Brian
 

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RE: I'll tell you why!

JB:

Only one post in this thread is about fuel problems, and it is fairly accurate, although I don't think the derogetory comment about Sunoco was necessary, and in the end all of the teams seemed to learn to work with the Sunoco Fuel.


What I wanted to know is what is the value of the sponsorship?

Although there seems to be some equity to the relationship, I am not sure Sunoco should be considered a sponsor and thus deserve space on the car. Sunoco is supplying a service. The SCCA in fact is not doing all it could to help competitors avoid hauling race fuel across the county.

So is Sunoco a sponsor? Or are we paying Sunoco for a Service. The answer could be simply that for Sunoco to provide this service the charge is the per gallon fee plus a sticker on all the cars. Maybe they make money, maybe the sticker compensates for a little cash loss, but provides unmeasurable equity. Having a gas supplier such as Sunoco support the competitors in such a way is a really good thing, too bad it has not been communicated.

In the end what has not been communicated to the participants is the benefits to the Sunoco Relationship.

There seem to be some really good reasons for the Sunoco Relationship, but they are unvoiced.

Don't blame the Competitors and Fans for questioning the value of something. Competitors pay to play, so they just want to know how money gets spent and the value of Sponsor relationships.

The benefits of the Sunoco relationship need to be announced, Shouted from the highest mountain.

The SCCA has not done a good job of representing their sponsors, their intentions and their relationships. The SCCA needs to do a better job, you can't expect everyone to understand a benefit to them by slapping a sticker on their car. The SCCA has a history of treating sponsors poorly, and this is another example.

AND most importantly if the competitors don't understand the benefits and can't talk positively about the relationship is there a value to the sponsor? To the competitor?

So sorry the issue here was not clear.

The question is not why should I have an X brand sticker on my car, it is:

WHY DON'T I KNOW WHY I HAVE A X BRAND STICKER ON MAY CAR?

Problem is easy enough to solve, and both the SCCA and the SPONSOR have the opportunity to correct this situation. (Gee, it would be in the best interests of both parties to make sure this gets done, huh?)


So I feel bad for the Sponsor, they have entered into what should be a positive relationship and the SCCA has failed them. I hope the SCCA can recognize this and take some action. More importantly I hope that the SCCA and the Sponsor Realize this is a continual process, stickers are not enough, two years from now people might forget why they are paying extra for fuel they can buy down the street (in most cases).

Mike


PS: Brian's post really adds a lot to the discussion -- did anybody know what they were doing was technically illegal? Is it something taht will be enforceable or enforced? Does this relationship solve the "issue" for the whole community, or just a few events a year? Lets not talk out of both sides of our mouth and let's recognize that if we are going to claim to solve a problem we better slove it from top to bottom...
 

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I would rather haul my own fuel from VERMONT than buy fuel from them and have problem with it like PRODRIVE did last year or was it the year before. CHRIS PUTZIER
 

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Transporting Racing Fuel

Here's some information from buyracegas.com that should be helpful in understanding the transporation of racing fuel.

Scott Leonard
http://www.essellrally.com
http://www.buyracegas.com


The DOT covers hazmat transportation by commercial vehicles and common carriers. Their regulations do cover race gas (UN1293) as a Class 3 HAZMAT Flammable Liquid in Packing Group III. That means that race gas is flammable and needs to be well packed to be transported. I think we all know this to be true.

DOT specifies the containers that are acceptable to transport HAZMAT. The container is the key and as you know High Performance Fuels and Additives (www.buyracegas.com) uses only containers that are DOT and UN approved for flammable liquids. Using approved containers allows UPS and FedEx to accept and ship the race gas. A person can also use these containers and know that they are much safer than any other container that is not UN-DOT approved.

The only rule that comes into play after you are using the proper containers is "placarding." There is a quantity over which you have to placard your vehicle with the recognizable red and white Flammable Liquid sign and note the UN1293 designation. There are also requirements for transport documents.

All of these rules and regulations do not apply to a person transporting a small quantity of gasoline to a track. Therefore you won't find the DOT pulling you over for a hazmat violation. Now there are fire codes and civil codes that may deal with transportation of personal quantities of race gas but I don't know of any.

In short, if you believe that it is illegal to transport race gas then why not let UPS and FEDEX handle the legal transportation of race gas to your next rally? www.buyracegas.com
 

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don't cut
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I ordered a drum of GT104 from the local fuel supplier this summer. He supplies all the fuel to all the stations in town, he sells us avgas,and is a family friend, so I know I got a good price. Ended up around $5.50 a gallon. I think Sunoco charges around $6.00 at a race. So 50 cents a gallon premium isn't too bad considering they carted it out to the middle of nowhere, stored it until I needed it, only sold as much as I wanted to buy (don't need to take a whole drum), and pumped it with a smile.

Bottom line, my car won't run on anything less than 104. Actually, it barely runs on 104 and really liked the 110.... Anywayz, if Sunoco is willing to supply it, I'm gonna shut up, smile, and buy.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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Big Jump 800
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Maybe its just me.

Brian,
Maybe you've got the legal transportation thing figured out (I read Scott L's post below and I still don't know how to legally trasport fuel).

My real point is this; I buy the fuel I need at the events, it's easy, I pay a premium for the service and they get about 6 square inches of my door panel.

When you find me a better deal, I'm all ears.

J.B. Niday
www.nidayrallysport.com
 

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RE: Transporting Racing Fuel

>All of these rules and regulations do not apply to a person
>transporting a small quantity of gasoline to a track.
>Therefore you won't find the DOT pulling you over for a
>hazmat violation. Now there are fire codes and civil codes
>that may deal with transportation of personal quantities of
>race gas but I don't know of any.

The definition of "small amount" comes into play here, but the information is correct...as far as it goes. Just about every state has rules about how much gasoline can be carried inside a vehicle...in Minnesota, I believe it's one gallon. On the trailer or on the back bumper of the van, you're probably OK.

Allowing even a gallon is pretty silly, as a properly vaporized gallon of gas can level a city block.

Bruce
 
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