Special Stage Forums banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
don't cut
Joined
·
2,252 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ojibwe Forests is fast approaching, and Kim and I are excited about the prospect of running stage notes. We both agree that they will be fun, and hopefully make us faster. Problem is, we don't know which ones to get, numeric or desriptive. Kim is voting numeric, as that's what his top secret codriver advisors are telling him to use. I prefer descriptive, becuz it is similar to the tulips we've been using. I'm afraid the use of too many numbers with the numeric notes may lead to confusion, and John Dillon and I used the descriptive nomenclature had a club rally this year and I loved it.

Hmm, this is easy to solve. It's my car, my money, so we use my notes! But......our top secret advisor's know their stuff, and we respect they're opinion. Also, there is a rumor floating around that in the future the notes will only be offered in numeric format???

Since we are starting from ground zero, we can learn either system. Which one do we go with (and NO, I don't want to try both and decide)? I've noticed the pros use both numeric (Macrae/Grist) and descriptive (Burns/Reid). I don't want to learn one system, only to have it become obsolete! Of course, I could just email the PRB on this, and probably will, but I enjoy the instant gratification of the rumors and lies put forth on SpecialStage. :)

So, what say you?


Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
415 Posts
Your best bet is to go with the most popular.

Call up Shawn at the SCCA office and ask him what the ratio is.

If I am not mistaken, from conversations with him in the past (STPR) it was something like 8:1, numeric to descriptive.

Besides, once you really get into the numeric system, it more or less tell you what gear to be in for that corner.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,027 Posts
Rumors say the numeric will be the "ONE" system.

I am in favor of just one system, I have no opinion on which system.

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
104 Posts
While we're on the subject, is there a description of how to read the numeric stage notes anywhere on the web? Also, what's the name of the company that produces them and do they have a website?
 

·
Administrator Emeritus
Joined
·
1,207 Posts
>While we're on the subject, is there a description of how to
>read the numeric stage notes anywhere on the web? Also,
>what's the name of the company that produces them and do
>they have a website?

http://www.p-sport.com/

Ben
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,443 Posts
Descriptive notes are the older system, and, for my money, the more "descriptive", system. However, Kurt told me numeric notes are being favored by about 9 to 1(they are easier for someone new to notes to get used to). I suspect that next year there will be only one type of note available(it's less work & maybe less cost???). If so, it will be numeric. Better to become accustomed to them now than start over next year.
 

·
Big Jump 800
Joined
·
716 Posts
Numeric vs. Descriptive

The books are virtually identical. Numeric books use 6-1 for increasing severity of the turns while descriptive substitute a word for each number... for example "2" equals "Bad".

J.B. Niday
www.nidayrallysport.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,550 Posts
RE: Numeric vs. Descriptive

IMHO, the decision is the driver's.

Codriver has to read the system that the driver is comfortable hearing and following. There is no need to add one more piece of information to be processed to the drivers brain work load.

Cheers

M.Samli
 

·
Big Jump 800
Joined
·
716 Posts
RE: Numeric vs. Descriptive

I agree completely... I understand the numbers but don't think I'd understand the words as quickly... Doug Havir and I have discussed this and he's just the opposite... we've gone so far as to suggest that if a driver wanted "Dog" "Cat" "Fish" "Bird" "Snake" and "Rat" and understood the difference between a Cat+ and a Fish- then good for him!

J.B. Niday
www.nidayrallysport.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,998 Posts
>Descriptive notes are the older system, and, for my money,
>the more "descriptive", system. However, Kurt told me
>numeric notes are being favored by about 9 to 1(they are
>easier for someone new to notes to get used to). I suspect
>that next year there will be only one type of note
>available(it's less work & maybe less cost???). If so, it
>will be numeric. Better to become accustomed to them now
>than start over next year.

The numbers are certainly the most popular by a large margin. There's no particular reason to stop supplying one or the other as long as SOMEBODY wants them, as I've been told the cost of producing the second version is pretty small compared to the initial preparation. I'm also told that some suppliers in the UK can get you anything you want for a particular rally - even JB's animals...

BW
 

·
3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
Joined
·
3,979 Posts
>I'm afraid the use of too many numbers with the
>numeric notes may lead to confusion, and John Dillon and I
>used the descriptive nomenclature had a club rally this year
>and I loved it.

Dillon and I talked about how to call turns before LSPR last year. I've always preferred K, Square, EZ, Hairpin, Acute and crap like that. He was used to doing a backward number gig for Lauchlin (hands of the clock describes turn severity) but like you I feared getting really mixed up with numbers flying around and maybe losing the Left or Right of things pictruning a clock face in my head. I thought about it for 11.876 nanosecinds and said, "Well, let's do it my way." ;)

Sorta like:
>Hmm, this is easy to solve. It's my car, my money, so we
>use my notes!

>Since we are starting from ground zero, we can learn either
>system. Which one do we go with

The Bug was returned to STPR last month with one goal in mind - win the class. Due to that I chose to spend more of Sean Figgins' money and we went with stage notes since a team is clearly giving up a competitive advanatage not running them (we were giving up too much weight and power as it was). Stage notes - yes. But which ones?

I visited Pete Lahm's website to read the information available there but stopped dead in my tracks when they represented a "K" as a "2" (tighter than square, more open than a hairpin). Every inference of "K" I've run across or used has been a "4" not a "2" so rather than risk a misunderstanding at speed we went with the numerical calls and I acclimated to that much quicker than I expected. I should add that the times the calls jibed with the road it was clear that the system works!

Next time the RealAutoSport, LLC Rallye Team uses stage notes we'll be doinfg numeric.

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com
 

·
don't cut
Joined
·
2,252 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
From what I understand, when the notes are made, anything can be inserted to denote the severity of the corner.

For example, the corners are all rated A-F (pick a variable, it doesn't matter). When printing the notes, for an "A" corner, the computer simply inputs either a "6" (numeric), a "Flat" (descriptive), or a "Fish" (JB style).

If this is true, than it should be relatively easy to supply both types of notes. But, just becuz something is relatively easy, doesn't mean it's going to happen..... I guess if I have a choice I'm going descriptive. I just don't wanna have start all over again next year.


Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

·
3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
Joined
·
3,979 Posts
Dennis Martin said:
>If this is true, than it should be relatively easy to supply
>both types of notes. But, just becuz something is
>relatively easy, doesn't mean it's going to happen..... I
>guess if I have a choice I'm going descriptive. I just don't
>wanna have start all over again next year.

OK. Since you keep asking ;), my advice is go with the numeric since it's clear that even a set-in-his-ways rally old fart like me could acclimate in a just couple of stages with a green (literally) navvie and if ever they decide to offer just one style it will obviously be the numeric ones that will be made available.

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,443 Posts
The notes I grew up with are: absolute, flat, slight, easy, fast, medium, K, bad, & acute, with square as a special case. This is a lot more than six(think Spinal Tap), and is a more descriptive way of announcing turns. +, -, Lg, VLg, VVLg, etc, are all used. I've used this system for thirty years, & I notice the current World Champ uses the same. However, for Ojibwe I will use numerical notes; driver's choice, and the only one that matters.
 

·
3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
Joined
·
3,979 Posts
>However, for Ojibwe I will use numerical notes; driver's
>choice, and the only one that matters.

WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, WHOA!!!

This means Uncle Joe's (Mad Mike navvie #9) returning to the silly seat? Where's the press release? And who you riding with? Another big surprise, perhaps???

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
I too was worried about the numeric format at first, but found that the brain (however small and unsophisticated) was easily and nearly instantaneously reprogrammed (okay, except for maybe that 3L at STPR that my brain somehow retranslated to a 6L).

Don't bet the farm that you will be faster with the notes the first time out either. The jury is still out whether I use them effectively in the daytime, and maybe I am even slower, but they seem to really help me at night.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,407 Posts
When we started rallying (dad, myself, and Mark Buskirk)we had a descriptive system with easy, medium and hard. It was good to get started, but only gave 3 increments of severity (of course, we added "square", "take", etc.)

Then we tried the face of a clock system. No, we didn't use 7-12, but rather 5 right or 5 left. In this system, a 3 is 90 deg. and a 6 comes all the way around 180. This was better as it gave us 6 increments of severity (about as much as you can decipher from most tulip books). We retained "square" etc. and added things like "handbrake left" for very acute turns/switchbacks.

I was worried going into Rim (we chose numbers) that now my numbers were going to be backwards. Turned out to not be a problem whatsoever. My brain is very accustomed to hearing the stuff now. I think a number system is easier cuz it is so relative. At an instance, I know that a 3 is faster than a 2. I don't have to think about what a "K" is and how it relates to "bad."

So there's one more fool's opinion for you. No, I haven't tried the descriptive notes, but I don't see myself ever caring to. The road is described as concisely as possible with the numbers and my brain understands them better.

Peace,
Lurch
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
868 Posts
Dennis,
We bought descriptive notes for 3 ProRallies and the notes have worked-out pretty well for us.
It's computerized, so there really shouldn't be significant incremental cost in having 2 types available.
Dave
 
G

·
Numeric

Hi, Dennis,

I'll repeat two points I made when we discussed it before Headwaters:

1) As a codriver it's my job to adapt to what the driver wants

2) I recommend numeric

Having said that, if the driver asks for advice, my advice is numeric.

It relates to relativity. Everyone knows that 5 is "more" than 4 which is "more" than 3, but is "K" more than "medium"; is "medium" more or less than "bad"? (If you had to think about it for more than a microsecond, you and stump have become one.)
 

·
straight at T
Joined
·
2,472 Posts
RE: Numeric

>2) I recommend numeric
>
>Having said that, if the driver asks for advice, my advice
>is numeric.
>
>It relates to relativity. Everyone knows that 5 is "more"
>than 4 which is "more" than 3, but is "K" more than
>"medium"; is "medium" more or less than "bad"? (If you had
>to think about it for more than a microsecond, you and stump
>have become one.)

I would suggest numeric too. All three drivers I've worked with have adapted to it very quickly, and it gets away from the interpretations thay you may have in your head for what a Medium or Easy corner is.

BTW. DO NOT think of numeric as being able to tell you what gear to use. Think of it as gradations of radius. These are not pace notes.

Adrian
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top