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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
When stagenotes were first implemented the cost was inflated because no one knew how many teams would be using them and the supplier had to pay their expenses and should make a profit.

Now, most every ProRally team is using and paying for notes at these high prices. With almost 100 teams using notes at Maine at $150 each, that is over $15000, much much more than the associated expenses and a whopping profit.
Really, what are the expenses? Airline tickets, rental car, gasoline, billable time for making the notes, paper, printing, equipment including rental or purchase of the machine that writes the notes would still add up to less than $5000 leaving the provider or SCCA with a huge profit in addition to the advertising they include in the notes. (2-3 pages of advertising have been included in each set I have used).
So, where does the other $10,000 collected at STPR go?
It appears most teams will continue using stage notes so why not scale back the price of notes per event determined by how many entries are using them?
Somebody has got to be making a small fortune off us on these now. Who has the $ and when will the price gouging cease?

Edit: I applaud PSport's dedication to the sport and them offering the notes. The notes have been consistent and precise and I enjoy using them. To quote Buffam (not an exact quote but the jist) at the MaineForest award's ceremony when realizing he awards for both drivers and codrivers, "The use of notes has made the role of codrivers a greater importance to the team".
 

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RE: Stage note cost & the $15000 collected at STPR $13500 at Maine

Interesting numbers...

>
> Now, most every ProRally team is using and paying for notes
>at these high prices. With more than 100 teams using notes
>at STPR at $150 each, that is over $15000, much much more
>than the associated expenses and a whopping profit.

There were only 90 starters at STPR, and at least some did not use notes. When you start with faulty numbers, your conclusions are likely to be flawed.

> Really, what are the expenses? Airline tickets, rental
>car, gasoline, billable time for making the notes, paper,
>printing, equipment including rental or purchase of the
>machine that writes the notes would still add up to less
>than $5000 leaving the provider or SCCA with a huge profit
>in addition to the advertising they include in the notes.
>(2-3 pages of advertising have been included in each set I
>have used).

I'd be interested to see your numbers on what it costs to note a rally. It certainly takes longer than I thought at first.


> So, where does the other $10,000 collected at STPR go?

Much of that, as pointed out above, is imaginary.

> It appears most teams will continue using stage notes so
>why not scale back the price of notes per event determined
>by how many entries are using them?

Have you asked whether this is going to be done? A simple phone call would have done it. You might be surprised.

> Somebody has got to be making a small fortune off us on
>these now. Who has the $ and when will the price gouging
>cease?

Of course if you feel notes are not worth the price charged, you can simply refuse to buy them. If they're NECESSARY for you to be competitive, then they're worth whatever they cost. Supply and demand, you know.

Bruce
 

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RE: Stage note cost & the $15000 collected at STPR $13500 at Maine

Although I have not used the notes myself, my son Mark and Charles Bradley have used them and find them very valuable.
To make a note of what is involved, the initial whiner about costs probably has never put on a rally.
Bruce makes some very simple and accurate points regarding this cost.
It should also be pointed out that there are several people involved in making these notes along with many preliminary trips around the course along with one just before the notes are printed to insure up to date info. These people are true professionals and are paid to make up the notes and to insure consistency in how to describe everything. These people are all FIA co-drivers with tremendous experience. These are not local yokels, these are real pros who know what they are doing. So when you figure out that cost, plus all the associated costs and then printing those things, there is not much of anything left.
Additionally, if you calculate how much it costs to take off a day of work and all the related expenses to go out and do a recce, the cost of the notes is insignificant........ and they are optional for those who do not wish to pay for them.
John Nelson
#382
:p
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
RE: Stage note cost & the $15000 collected at STPR $13500 at Maine

>Have you asked whether this is going to be done? A simple
>phone call would have done it. You might be surprised.

I am right now. Tell us! I am getting sick and tired of all the secrecy by organizers and performance rally staff.

>Of course if you feel notes are not worth the price charged,
>you can simply refuse to buy them.

Notes are the best thing, no, the only good thing that has happened to SCCA rally in a longtime. Of course I am going to use them. I just rather spend my $ on other expenses than watch someone get rich off competitors facing higher and higher cost.

>If they're NECESSARY for
>you to be competitive, then they're worth whatever they
>cost. Supply and demand, you know.

The law of supply and demand does not work when there is a monopoly on them.



As for you Mr Nelson,
>Although I have not used the notes myself, my son Mark and Charles >Bradley have used them and find them very valuable.
>To make a note of what is involved, the initial whiner about costs >probably has never put on a rally.

Yes I have organized rallies. Why is it that any time there is a conflict people powertrip on who has been an organizer. It is not an issue here. Stage Notes are not an organizer's expense in the SCCA currently.

Watch what you post so your son does not have to post an apology for you again.
 

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RE: Stage note cost & the $15000 collected at STPR $13500 at Maine

>>Have you asked whether this is going to be done? A simple
>>phone call would have done it. You might be surprised.
>
>I am right now. Tell us! I am getting sick and tired of all
>the secrecy by organizers and performance rally staff.
>

I can't tell you, because I don't know. Organizers, beyond furnishing a route book and some course assistance, have nothing to do with the notes. Secrecy? What do you want to know? If I don't know, I'll make it up.

I'd still like to know what the expenses are for preparing notes. Please let us in on it - you seem to have the information.

Bruce
 

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RE: Stage note cost & the $15000 collected at STPR $13500 at Maine

SCCA originally stated the estimated cost per event would be approx $6000 (40 cars to break even). They also stated the price would be adjusted if need be after several events. They also stated after STPR that 75 of the 90 team purchased the notes.
 

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RE: Stage note cost & the $15000 collected at STPR $13500 at Maine

>It should also be pointed out that there are several people
>involved in making these notes along with many preliminary
>trips around the course along with one just before the notes
>are printed to insure up to date info. These people are
>true professionals and are paid to make up the notes and to
>insure consistency in how to describe everything. These
>people are all FIA co-drivers with tremendous experience.
>These are not local yokels, these are real pros who know
>what they are doing. So when you figure out that cost, plus
>all the associated costs and then printing those things,
>there is not much of anything left.

Well, once again someone without the proper knowledge claiming
to know what he speaks about. If the folks from P-sport are
running around on the Ojibwe course, I'd like to know how as the
final course was just settled upon about a day ago and they have
not been provided that information yet. In reality, they will
be making their first, and probably only trip over the course at
the same time that I and some other members of the organizing
committee do the actual checkout of the route book. As for us
"local yokels", we and especially I, would much prefer that an
ass such as yourself stayed away, since we'd much rather spend
our time putting on events for someone who actually appreciates
the time and effort involved in securing the rest of you a place
to play.

Brad Odegard
Rallymaster - Ojibwe Forests Rally
 

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RE: Stage note cost & the $15000 collected at STPR $13500 at Maine

good for you Brad.

I wish I could make it to your event, plans just didn't gel right or you'd have 1 nice Ford Sapphire Cosworth more driven by a local yokel.

All power to the Local Yokels


Hey, one thing I've heard just a teenie bit about, can you ease up on transit speeds a bit?

duh yep, yust a loco yoko.














John Vanlandingham
 

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RE: Stage note cost & the $15000 collected at STPR $13500 at Maine

I really dont know where you get off calling me an "ass" as your comments are not relative to what I posted. You should know that I am also a rally organizer, but we are not talking about the notes that an organizer is responsible to produce. The discussion was about the SCCA provided notes done by people specifically hired to do this and provide consistency from event to event.
If you cannot distinguish these things, perhaps you should take a look at your own derrier. It seems you are hostile about these stage notes also. Why do you even care? It is not in your domain.
John Nelson
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RE: Transit Speed

Well, lets see... method of calculating transit times for the Ojibwe Forest Rally....

(miles rural pavement x 45 mph) + (miles rural gravel x 35 mph) + (miles urban anything x 25 mph) + (miles quiet zone x 30 mph) + (number of stopsigns x 30 sec) + (number of stoplights x 60 sec) + (number of finish controls encountered x 2 min) + (3 min if transit does not begin or end at a service area) = transit time

In MN:
Rural pavement legal limit = 55 mph
Rural gravel legal limit = 55 mph
Most Urban areas legal limit = 30-35 mph
Quiet zone mandated limit = 30 mph

BTW this results in a transit time of approximate 7 min to go .5 miles on our short transits

This calculation has been approved by the safety steward for the event many years running and I'd challenge anyone to determine that its not completely fair and if nothing else generous. If you have a puncture and choose to change it on the transit, that is your choice, not mine, and I cannot and will not be responsible for how long it does or does not take you to complete said activity. The extra 3 minutes is actually built in to allow someone to do some minor fix-it work on the car between controls if necessary.

Brad Odegard
Rallymaster - Ojibwe Forests Rally
 

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Useful!

>SCCA originally stated the estimated cost per event would be
>approx $6000 (40 cars to break even). They also stated the
>price would be adjusted if need be after several events.
>They also stated after STPR that 75 of the 90 team purchased
>the notes.

Now this is useful information!!
So what we are all waiting is if the cost of notes to the competitior goes up or down and when the cost change is implemented.
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
RE: Stage note cost & the $15000 collected at STPR $13500 at Maine

>I'd still like to know what the expenses are for preparing
>notes. Please let us in on it - you seem to have the
>information.

The orginal post includes what the expenses are. Transportation getting there; rental car; gasoline; hotelroom; printing (including paper, labor, binding); supplies to go make the notes (notebook, pens, transit headsets, rally odometer), billable time including logistics such as reserving hotelroom and airline reservations; rental or outright purchase of the machine that makes most of the notes (additions are made to include items or objects the machine can not detect such as junctions, rough, n. c. (don't cut), bridges), <<<acceptable profit margin>>>>>>>>

At Rally de Quebec this year some French (French-French, not Quebec French) FIA codriver was selling notes prior to recee for $40 Cdn. My driver had already bought them and I refered to them making my own notes and his were very good except that they were in French. $40 Cdn is much less than $150US. Difference there was no monopoly in effect so he had to charge what people would be willing to pay for his notes and SCCA didn't have their hand in his pocket.

Anyone notice PSport was not there selling the notes at Maine? SCCA was. The same guys collecting $45 on the overpriced monopolized # backers or $500 for Pro ID to the unwashed.

Any day you want to pay me $6000 to write notes let me know. Even the three days of recee at Charlevoix did not cost that much. That $6000 estimate is heavily padded I'd say. Even twisty CherokeeTrails took only a day without the luxury of having a machine do much of the writing.

Yes, I would pay $200 for notes over a routebook. They are that valueable and cost far less than doing our own recee. But why should we pay for more than is warranted?

So they've said they will adjust the price after a couple events. We've had several. They are making money. Demand the price is reduced to be reasonable now that they know they have a captivated consumer pool.
 

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RE: Useful!

Call me crazy, but is $5000 or $10,000 or even $15,000 so much to get all frothymouthed over? It's not like there's a gang of cigar chomping stooges living large on the Riviera on the proceeds of this notes economy. And are there many teams that are both competitive enough to need the notes to keep up with the jonses *and* can't afford the extra $150?

Isaac "I know nothing" in Cambridge
 

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supply and demand in action

how's this: I think the vast majority would agree that they Demand note be Supplied for an awful lot less.

The nonsense about supply and demand is 3rd grade ecomomics and is frankly tiresome, the demand is for Moderately priced services and a few people have forgotten about the interplay between price and unit cost.
And the cost of an outright plum deal being made.

It's pretty clear, if SCCA is in the picture the price will be set by arrangement and connection, not cost plus pricing.


SCCA out of the picture and what would happen?














John Vanlandingham
 

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RE: Rural gravel legal limit = 55 mph!!!

No, if I lived in paradise, I'd have a couple more roads that I'd asked for... instead I spent a couple weeks fighting with beuracrats who decided to change the rules on their own.

Still, I'd claim that the method of arriving at fair and reasonble transit times is proven, simple, safe and repeatable.

Brad
 

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RE: supply and demand in action

>
>SCCA out of the picture and what would happen?
>

We'd go back to blind rally's with Paul Choiniere kicking our butts. Not a bad thing when you consider the current new world order and what its costing...

Perhaps AV Sport should sell their Pirelli Rally tires at cost? Where is the outrage about tire prices. I'll spend 2 times the cost of notes easily on a weekend for 2-3 new tires.

Notes/tires its the same thing. Its part of the cost of being competitive in ProRally.

I'd prefer to go back to blind rally's but then you have a situation where the Mexican national champion has his hands full finishing ahead of a "cute car" in 1999 at STPR...

The rest of the world isn't as skilled as us at blind rally's. Why give up our advantage if they want to come play in our sandbox?

My answer... It makes the SCCA press releases better to have Professional European rally drivers beating up on us.

Ultimately its like letting Barry Bonds participate in the Little League world series... Stig showed us how far we still have to go...
 

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>When stagenotes were first implemented the cost was inflated
>because no one knew how many teams would be using them and
>the supplier had to pay their expenses and should make a
>profit.
>
> Now, most every ProRally team is using and paying for notes
>at these high prices. With almost 100 teams using notes at
>Maine at $150 each, that is over $15000, much much more than
>the associated expenses and a whopping profit.
> Really, what are the expenses? Airline tickets, rental
>car, gasoline, billable time for making the notes, paper,
>printing, equipment including rental or purchase of the
>machine that writes the notes would still add up to less
>than $5000 leaving the provider or SCCA with a huge profit
>in addition to the advertising they include in the notes.
>(2-3 pages of advertising have been included in each set I
>have used).
> So, where does the other $10,000 collected at STPR go?
> It appears most teams will continue using stage notes so
>why not scale back the price of notes per event determined
>by how many entries are using them?
> Somebody has got to be making a small fortune off us on
>these now. Who has the $ and when will the price gouging
>cease?
>
> Edit: I applaud PSport's dedication to the sport and them
>offering the notes. The notes have been consistent and
>precise and I enjoy using them. To quote Buffam (not an
>exact quote but the jist) at the MaineForest award's
>ceremony when realizing he awards for both drivers and
>codrivers, "The use of notes has made the role of codrivers
>a greater importance to the team".


I have the answer. Don't buy the notes. If every team refused to run with them, then they would not provide them in the future.

The notes are a big undertaking. Pete hasn't been able to drive this year because of it. What would it be worth to you to not be able to rally because you were providing the notes for the competitors to play harder and not able to compete yourself?
 

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>The notes are a big undertaking. Pete hasn't been able to
>drive this year because of it. What would it be worth to you
>to not be able to rally because you were providing the notes
>for the competitors to play harder and not able to compete
>yourself?

Actually Pete Lahm has competed at SnoDrift, Cherokee Trails, Oregon and Rim. He excused himself from the note making process when he was competing.
 

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RE: supply and demand in action

>Perhaps AV Sport should sell their Pirelli Rally tires at
>cost? Where is the outrage about tire prices. I'll spend 2
>times the cost of notes easily on a weekend for 2-3 new
>tires.
>
>Notes/tires its the same thing. Its part of the cost of
>being competitive in ProRally.

Pirelli is a corporation, AV Sport is a bussiness, SCCA is a "non-profit" organization which everyone and his mom is a member of. I think that makes one hell of a difference.
 
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