Speed Factors including the Club Rally National Championship are posted
on the Rally america Web Site. http://www.rally-america.com
on the Rally america Web Site. http://www.rally-america.com
Speed Factors Posted
1 - 20 of 38 Posts
Just out of curiosity, how do you calculate SF for a clubrally? I mean, I know the math, but what do you use as a baseline, and how do you integrate that into a national ranking?
Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
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1,368 Posts
On most stages, you were the baseline.
Mike is exactly correct. The math is in 2.2.B. Your speed factor for a stage is basically your percentage of the fastest speed run on the stage. If your were the fastest on that stage, your speed factor is 1.0. The faster the guy who wins the stage, the harder it will be to earn a higher speed factor for those following. With fast guys in high-powered cars running many ClubRallies these days, there shouldn't be a LOT of speed factor dilution...although there is sure to be some.
Bruce
Bruce
Joined
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2,472 Posts
>Mike is exactly correct. The math is in 2.2.B. Your speed
>factor for a stage is basically your percentage of the
>fastest speed run on the stage. If your were the fastest on
>that stage, your speed factor is 1.0. The faster the guy
>who wins the stage, the harder it will be to earn a higher
>speed factor for those following. With fast guys in
>high-powered cars running many ClubRallies these days, there
>shouldn't be a LOT of speed factor dilution...although there
>is sure to be some.
I think that part of what Dennis was asking is how you integrate the values you get from ClubRallies into the ProRally figures. No offense to Dennis, but he probably isn't the baseline for most ProRally stages (and certainly wasn't for most of the stages used to calculate the existing SpeedFactors), so the ClubRally SpeedFactors will be artificially higher than the ProRally ones. This is one of the defects of using the fastest car as a baseline.
You could correct those figures by the existing speedfactor of the baseline driver, but then the baseline driver doesn't improve x(
Adrian
>factor for a stage is basically your percentage of the
>fastest speed run on the stage. If your were the fastest on
>that stage, your speed factor is 1.0. The faster the guy
>who wins the stage, the harder it will be to earn a higher
>speed factor for those following. With fast guys in
>high-powered cars running many ClubRallies these days, there
>shouldn't be a LOT of speed factor dilution...although there
>is sure to be some.
I think that part of what Dennis was asking is how you integrate the values you get from ClubRallies into the ProRally figures. No offense to Dennis, but he probably isn't the baseline for most ProRally stages (and certainly wasn't for most of the stages used to calculate the existing SpeedFactors), so the ClubRally SpeedFactors will be artificially higher than the ProRally ones. This is one of the defects of using the fastest car as a baseline.
You could correct those figures by the existing speedfactor of the baseline driver, but then the baseline driver doesn't improve x(
Adrian
Joined
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2,472 Posts
>Or we could go back to a system that wasn't broken and
>didn't need fixing.
I wasn't going to say that (out loud)... ;-)
>didn't need fixing.
I wasn't going to say that (out loud)... ;-)
Joined
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1,368 Posts
No offense to Dennis, but he probably
>isn't the baseline for most ProRally stages (and certainly
>wasn't for most of the stages used to calculate the existing
>SpeedFactors), so the ClubRally SpeedFactors will be
>artificially higher than the ProRally ones.
>
No.
Since it's a Club Rally, the baseline is the speed factor of the fastest car on the stage (in this case, usually Dennis's .95), So the other competitors factors would be a percentage of .95 instead of a percentage of 1.0 (at a pro-event).
>You could correct those figures by the existing speedfactor
>of the baseline driver, but then the baseline driver doesn't
>improve x(
Isn't this how it is done at Club Rallies now? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
In 2004, the front of the field isn't as fast at Pro-Rallies, so naturally anyone who competes in a Pro-event, or competes in a Club event agaist a fast driver who ran a Pro event will probably see his speed factor improve.
edit to correct numbers, clarify
>isn't the baseline for most ProRally stages (and certainly
>wasn't for most of the stages used to calculate the existing
>SpeedFactors), so the ClubRally SpeedFactors will be
>artificially higher than the ProRally ones.
>
No.
Since it's a Club Rally, the baseline is the speed factor of the fastest car on the stage (in this case, usually Dennis's .95), So the other competitors factors would be a percentage of .95 instead of a percentage of 1.0 (at a pro-event).
>You could correct those figures by the existing speedfactor
>of the baseline driver, but then the baseline driver doesn't
>improve x(
Isn't this how it is done at Club Rallies now? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
In 2004, the front of the field isn't as fast at Pro-Rallies, so naturally anyone who competes in a Pro-event, or competes in a Club event agaist a fast driver who ran a Pro event will probably see his speed factor improve.
edit to correct numbers, clarify
Joined
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339 Posts
Where in writing is this speed factor procedure posted.
Specifically where is it stated that you use the baseline drivers speedfactor and base everyone else from this for Standalone Clubrallies?
Section 2.2.B states how the Prorally speedfactors are posted but says nothing about Clubrallies.
Is there a bulletin or Fastrack or word of mouth?
I'm just curious.
Brian Scott
Specifically where is it stated that you use the baseline drivers speedfactor and base everyone else from this for Standalone Clubrallies?
Section 2.2.B states how the Prorally speedfactors are posted but says nothing about Clubrallies.
Is there a bulletin or Fastrack or word of mouth?
I'm just curious.
Brian Scott
Joined
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1,368 Posts
rulebook?
You're right Brian, it should be in the rule book.
You're right Brian, it should be in the rule book.
Joined
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2,472 Posts
> No offense to Dennis, but he probably
>>isn't the baseline for most ProRally stages (and certainly
>>wasn't for most of the stages used to calculate the existing
>>SpeedFactors), so the ClubRally SpeedFactors will be
>>artificially higher than the ProRally ones.
>>
>
>No.
>
>Since it's a Club Rally, the baseline is the speed factor of
>the fastest car on the stage (in this case, usually Dennis's
>.95), So the other competitors factors would be a percentage
>of .95 instead of a percentage of 1.0 (at a pro-event).
The written procedure doesn't allow for this, which is why I asked.
>>You could correct those figures by the existing speedfactor
>>of the baseline driver, but then the baseline driver doesn't
>>improve.
>
>Isn't this how it is done at Club Rallies now? Someone
>correct me if I'm wrong.
I was not aware of ClubRally numbers being incorporated into the SpeedFactors before the CRNC. There is no written procedure in the rulebook except for a vague reference to "reported Clubrally" events, hence the question.
>In 2004, the front of the field isn't as fast at
>Pro-Rallies, so naturally anyone who competes in a
>Pro-event, or competes in a Club event agaist a fast driver
>who ran a Pro event will probably see his speed factor
>improve.
I agree that the ProRally based speedfactors will increase (due to the removal of the fastest cars for this year).
However, someone who competes in a ClubRally where the fastest car isn't a very fast open car will have an artificially inflated SpeedFactor.
Adrian
>>isn't the baseline for most ProRally stages (and certainly
>>wasn't for most of the stages used to calculate the existing
>>SpeedFactors), so the ClubRally SpeedFactors will be
>>artificially higher than the ProRally ones.
>>
>
>No.
>
>Since it's a Club Rally, the baseline is the speed factor of
>the fastest car on the stage (in this case, usually Dennis's
>.95), So the other competitors factors would be a percentage
>of .95 instead of a percentage of 1.0 (at a pro-event).
The written procedure doesn't allow for this, which is why I asked.
>>You could correct those figures by the existing speedfactor
>>of the baseline driver, but then the baseline driver doesn't
>>improve.
>
>Isn't this how it is done at Club Rallies now? Someone
>correct me if I'm wrong.
I was not aware of ClubRally numbers being incorporated into the SpeedFactors before the CRNC. There is no written procedure in the rulebook except for a vague reference to "reported Clubrally" events, hence the question.
>In 2004, the front of the field isn't as fast at
>Pro-Rallies, so naturally anyone who competes in a
>Pro-event, or competes in a Club event agaist a fast driver
>who ran a Pro event will probably see his speed factor
>improve.
I agree that the ProRally based speedfactors will increase (due to the removal of the fastest cars for this year).
However, someone who competes in a ClubRally where the fastest car isn't a very fast open car will have an artificially inflated SpeedFactor.
Adrian
Joined
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32 Posts
As a member of a team that finished on the podium in multiple club only events who's speedfactor could never be changed from 0.83 "because club only events don't count", I feel fairly strongly that the system WAS broken. We finally did get our SF updated but only on an appeal to the PRB.
Its time to include those of us who run primarily club events. And its time to establish a procedure and put it in the rule book.
And don't tell me that the event steward will put everyone in the proper order anyway so it doesn't matter. If that is the case, then lets get rid of the whole SF system and go back to a random seeded draw. That was the system that wasn't broken.
Scott Radabaugh
Its time to include those of us who run primarily club events. And its time to establish a procedure and put it in the rule book.
And don't tell me that the event steward will put everyone in the proper order anyway so it doesn't matter. If that is the case, then lets get rid of the whole SF system and go back to a random seeded draw. That was the system that wasn't broken.
Scott Radabaugh
Joined
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32 Posts
>I was not aware of ClubRally numbers being incorporated into
>the SpeedFactors before the CRNC. There is no written
>procedure in the rulebook except for a vague reference to
>"reported Clubrally" events, hence the question.
There was no procedure, but it was done on an ad hoc basis by McArthur. If you look back through the SR lists from 02 and 03, there are LOTS of drivers who have speedrankings that never ran a national event (or associated clubrally).
>However, someone who competes in a ClubRally where the
>fastest car isn't a very fast open car will have an
>artificially inflated SpeedFactor.
No, they won't. This will not occur so long as you have a means of establishing a delta from the club only event to a national event and you multiply everyone's speedfactor from the club event by this delta. Al used one method, but there are many other ways to do this and I've sent a few proposed methods to Al Kintigh for his review.
Scott Radabaugh
>the SpeedFactors before the CRNC. There is no written
>procedure in the rulebook except for a vague reference to
>"reported Clubrally" events, hence the question.
There was no procedure, but it was done on an ad hoc basis by McArthur. If you look back through the SR lists from 02 and 03, there are LOTS of drivers who have speedrankings that never ran a national event (or associated clubrally).
>However, someone who competes in a ClubRally where the
>fastest car isn't a very fast open car will have an
>artificially inflated SpeedFactor.
No, they won't. This will not occur so long as you have a means of establishing a delta from the club only event to a national event and you multiply everyone's speedfactor from the club event by this delta. Al used one method, but there are many other ways to do this and I've sent a few proposed methods to Al Kintigh for his review.
Scott Radabaugh
How to calculate stand alone club rallies was never addressed in the rule book.
I sent the PRB a letter requesting clarification on how to calculate for stand alone club
rallies. I also included the above described method to calculate them. There have also
been several folks that have suggested different methods for calculating speed factors
for both stand alone Club and Pro rallies. These are all being looked at and the changes
hopefully will be published prior to next years rule book printing.
I sent the PRB a letter requesting clarification on how to calculate for stand alone club
rallies. I also included the above described method to calculate them. There have also
been several folks that have suggested different methods for calculating speed factors
for both stand alone Club and Pro rallies. These are all being looked at and the changes
hopefully will be published prior to next years rule book printing.
Joined
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2,472 Posts
>
>>I was not aware of ClubRally numbers being incorporated into
>>the SpeedFactors before the CRNC. There is no written
>>procedure in the rulebook except for a vague reference to
>>"reported Clubrally" events, hence the question.
>
>There was no procedure, but it was done on an ad hoc basis
>by McArthur. If you look back through the SR lists from 02
>and 03, there are LOTS of drivers who have speedrankings
>that never ran a national event (or associated clubrally).
>
There is a procedure for assigning SpeedRankings to drivers who haven't run ProRallies. I won't go into my thoughts about "ad hoc" adjustments.
>>However, someone who competes in a ClubRally where the
>>fastest car isn't a very fast open car will have an
>>artificially inflated SpeedFactor.
>
>No, they won't. This will not occur so long as you have a
>means of establishing a delta from the club only event to a
>national event and you multiply everyone's speedfactor from
>the club event by this delta.
Exactly my point. There is no set procedure for this.
Adrian
>>I was not aware of ClubRally numbers being incorporated into
>>the SpeedFactors before the CRNC. There is no written
>>procedure in the rulebook except for a vague reference to
>>"reported Clubrally" events, hence the question.
>
>There was no procedure, but it was done on an ad hoc basis
>by McArthur. If you look back through the SR lists from 02
>and 03, there are LOTS of drivers who have speedrankings
>that never ran a national event (or associated clubrally).
>
There is a procedure for assigning SpeedRankings to drivers who haven't run ProRallies. I won't go into my thoughts about "ad hoc" adjustments.
>>However, someone who competes in a ClubRally where the
>>fastest car isn't a very fast open car will have an
>>artificially inflated SpeedFactor.
>
>No, they won't. This will not occur so long as you have a
>means of establishing a delta from the club only event to a
>national event and you multiply everyone's speedfactor from
>the club event by this delta.
Exactly my point. There is no set procedure for this.
Adrian
Joined
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2,472 Posts
>
>As a member of a team that finished on the podium in
>multiple club only events who's speedfactor could never be
>changed from 0.83 "because club only events don't count", I
>feel fairly strongly that the system WAS broken. We finally
>did get our SF updated but only on an appeal to the PRB.
I'm pretty sure Joe was refering to the seed system. I certainly was.
>Its time to include those of us who run primarily club
>events. And its time to establish a procedure and put it in
>the rule book.
Agreed.
>And don't tell me that the event steward will put everyone
>in the proper order anyway so it doesn't matter. If that is
>the case, then lets get rid of the whole SF system and go
>back to a random seeded draw. That was the system that
>wasn't broken.
That was my point (and Joe's, I think).
Adrian
>As a member of a team that finished on the podium in
>multiple club only events who's speedfactor could never be
>changed from 0.83 "because club only events don't count", I
>feel fairly strongly that the system WAS broken. We finally
>did get our SF updated but only on an appeal to the PRB.
I'm pretty sure Joe was refering to the seed system. I certainly was.
>Its time to include those of us who run primarily club
>events. And its time to establish a procedure and put it in
>the rule book.
Agreed.
>And don't tell me that the event steward will put everyone
>in the proper order anyway so it doesn't matter. If that is
>the case, then lets get rid of the whole SF system and go
>back to a random seeded draw. That was the system that
>wasn't broken.
That was my point (and Joe's, I think).
Adrian
Joined
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1,146 Posts
I read a lot of people gripping about the speed factors but I do not understand what the real problem is here. I think they work very well and am trying to understand what the worries are about.
Are you saying there is a better system? Or are you saying Seeding worked better, or what?
Speed factors exist to keep cars from needing to pass other cars on stage, thus their goal is simple, make sure you do not have Car A that will do a stage 1 min faster than car B start after car B. This simple goal allows a lot of room error in the speed factor thus I think most worries are misplaced.
I do not agree that club rallys will mess up the factors, I expect it will be real close to predicted.Looking at last weekend's DooWop rally, Carl wins the event with a time of 34.85 and a speed factor of .93 thus the 1.00 car would have finished in 32.57.
We can now look at the other drivers event speedfactor and real speed factor to see how the compare.
Hintz speed factor = .85 Event Speed Factor = .88 so he goes up.
Eckland speed factor = .86 Event Speed Factor = .88 up a little.
Cavatt speed factor = .86 Event Speed Factor = .87 up a little.
Ralph K speed factor = .89 Event Speed Factor = .87 Down a bit.
Tenis speed factor = .82 Event Speed Factor = .84 up a bit.
Me speed factor = .81 Event Speed Factor = .83 I go up .02.
Thomas speed factor .82 Event Speed Factor = .81 down a bit.
Hardly earth shatering changes, Hintz moves .03, but he does have a new car he is only on his 3rd rally in the car so we could expect him to improve. I also move up .02 but my national speed factor was based on my first rally in this car, this result was my third event in the car so I have learnd a bit about how to drive it.
It looks to me the program works well. If we start seeing factors moving more than .07 per event then we likely have an issue and that is getting close to creating the possibility of having a slow car in front of a fast car. However when ever I have looked at the math and results the system seems to work well.
Derek
Are you saying there is a better system? Or are you saying Seeding worked better, or what?
Speed factors exist to keep cars from needing to pass other cars on stage, thus their goal is simple, make sure you do not have Car A that will do a stage 1 min faster than car B start after car B. This simple goal allows a lot of room error in the speed factor thus I think most worries are misplaced.
I do not agree that club rallys will mess up the factors, I expect it will be real close to predicted.Looking at last weekend's DooWop rally, Carl wins the event with a time of 34.85 and a speed factor of .93 thus the 1.00 car would have finished in 32.57.
We can now look at the other drivers event speedfactor and real speed factor to see how the compare.
Hintz speed factor = .85 Event Speed Factor = .88 so he goes up.
Eckland speed factor = .86 Event Speed Factor = .88 up a little.
Cavatt speed factor = .86 Event Speed Factor = .87 up a little.
Ralph K speed factor = .89 Event Speed Factor = .87 Down a bit.
Tenis speed factor = .82 Event Speed Factor = .84 up a bit.
Me speed factor = .81 Event Speed Factor = .83 I go up .02.
Thomas speed factor .82 Event Speed Factor = .81 down a bit.
Hardly earth shatering changes, Hintz moves .03, but he does have a new car he is only on his 3rd rally in the car so we could expect him to improve. I also move up .02 but my national speed factor was based on my first rally in this car, this result was my third event in the car so I have learnd a bit about how to drive it.
It looks to me the program works well. If we start seeing factors moving more than .07 per event then we likely have an issue and that is getting close to creating the possibility of having a slow car in front of a fast car. However when ever I have looked at the math and results the system seems to work well.
Derek
Joined
·
339 Posts
Derek,
Nowhere is it stated how to calculate speedfactors for Clubrallies.
All I want is:
- Write a rule
- Post / Publish / Document the rule
- Follow the rule
Then expect me to follow that written rule and monitor it on my own spreadsheet.
That is all.
Brian
Nowhere is it stated how to calculate speedfactors for Clubrallies.
All I want is:
- Write a rule
- Post / Publish / Document the rule
- Follow the rule
Then expect me to follow that written rule and monitor it on my own spreadsheet.
That is all.
Brian
Joined
·
115 Posts
It looks to me as though some factors have been artificilly inflated as well. And how does one choose which club rallys get factored and which get ignored? And I would love to hear that it is NOT McArthur's or anyone else's whim.
Ted Mendham
Ted Mendham
Joined
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2,472 Posts
>I read a lot of people gripping about the speed factors but
>I do not understand what the real problem is here. I think
>they work very well and am trying to understand what the
>worries are about.
>
>Are you saying there is a better system? Or are you saying
>Seeding worked better, or what?
IMO, SpeedFactors were a solution in search of a problem. The existing Seed system (with occasional subjective start order adjustments for safety) worked well. The current SpeedFactor system (with occasional subjective start order adjustments for safety) works well too, but has similar issues.
>Speed factors exist to keep cars from needing to pass other
>cars on stage, thus their goal is simple, make sure you do
>not have Car A that will do a stage 1 min faster than car B
>start after car B. This simple goal allows a lot of room
>error in the speed factor thus I think most worries are
>misplaced.
There wasn't a problem before we had SpeedFactors.
>I do not agree that club rallys will mess up the factors, I
>expect it will be real close to predicted.Looking at last
>weekend's DooWop rally, Carl wins the event with a time of
>34.85 and a speed factor of .93 thus the 1.00 car would have
>finished in 32.57.
But there is no communicated process/rule to adjust SpeedFactors for ClubRallies, so he should be a 1.00 if the DooWops are counted into the SpeedFactor. Unless, of course, there is a secret adjustment factor...
I'm not particularly worried about ClubRallies where the baseline car is a very fast driver. I'm more worried about the ones where the the baseline driver is someone in the .89 to .85 range (or below).
>Hintz speed factor = .85 Event Speed Factor = .88 so he goes
>up.
>
>Hardly earth shatering changes, Hintz moves .03, but he does
>have a new car he is only on his 3rd rally in the car so we
>could expect him to improve.
As you so aptly point out, SpeedFactor is not only driver ability, it is also dependent on the car they are driving, but are there adjustments to SpeedFactor when a driver changes classes? It also rewards driving fast over finishing... (but driving fast AND finishing even more).
Any system has flaws. We replaced a well understood one with one that is still obviously a work-in-progress for no particularly good reason. But, we have the SpeedFactor system now, so we have to work with it.
Adrian
>I do not understand what the real problem is here. I think
>they work very well and am trying to understand what the
>worries are about.
>
>Are you saying there is a better system? Or are you saying
>Seeding worked better, or what?
IMO, SpeedFactors were a solution in search of a problem. The existing Seed system (with occasional subjective start order adjustments for safety) worked well. The current SpeedFactor system (with occasional subjective start order adjustments for safety) works well too, but has similar issues.
>Speed factors exist to keep cars from needing to pass other
>cars on stage, thus their goal is simple, make sure you do
>not have Car A that will do a stage 1 min faster than car B
>start after car B. This simple goal allows a lot of room
>error in the speed factor thus I think most worries are
>misplaced.
There wasn't a problem before we had SpeedFactors.
>I do not agree that club rallys will mess up the factors, I
>expect it will be real close to predicted.Looking at last
>weekend's DooWop rally, Carl wins the event with a time of
>34.85 and a speed factor of .93 thus the 1.00 car would have
>finished in 32.57.
But there is no communicated process/rule to adjust SpeedFactors for ClubRallies, so he should be a 1.00 if the DooWops are counted into the SpeedFactor. Unless, of course, there is a secret adjustment factor...
I'm not particularly worried about ClubRallies where the baseline car is a very fast driver. I'm more worried about the ones where the the baseline driver is someone in the .89 to .85 range (or below).
>Hintz speed factor = .85 Event Speed Factor = .88 so he goes
>up.
>
>Hardly earth shatering changes, Hintz moves .03, but he does
>have a new car he is only on his 3rd rally in the car so we
>could expect him to improve.
As you so aptly point out, SpeedFactor is not only driver ability, it is also dependent on the car they are driving, but are there adjustments to SpeedFactor when a driver changes classes? It also rewards driving fast over finishing... (but driving fast AND finishing even more).
Any system has flaws. We replaced a well understood one with one that is still obviously a work-in-progress for no particularly good reason. But, we have the SpeedFactor system now, so we have to work with it.
Adrian
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