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Can someone please direct me to the location where the exact rules for calculating Speed Factors are described?
Doug Woods
Doug Woods
Speed Factor Calculations
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Piers:
Thank you very much. Exactly what I needed.
Doug Woods
Thank you very much. Exactly what I needed.
Doug Woods
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528 Posts
Wow, this is interesting.
Since I am old to this, how does one figure...
Let's say I ran 4 stages and DNF, through out the high and low.
Now 2 stages are counted, are these compared to the winning time on the SAME two stages ONLY, and applied to the next rally entered?
And is it true that I can only go UP in speedfactor from here in .5 of a year?
Thanks in advance
Since I am old to this, how does one figure...
Let's say I ran 4 stages and DNF, through out the high and low.
Now 2 stages are counted, are these compared to the winning time on the SAME two stages ONLY, and applied to the next rally entered?
And is it true that I can only go UP in speedfactor from here in .5 of a year?
Thanks in advance
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1,388 Posts
updates?
Will speed factors be updated with LSPR reults?
Will speed factors be updated with LSPR reults?
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2,491 Posts
Steve:
I am certainly not an authority on speed factors, as I only read the regulations myself three days ago. However, I will attempt to answer your questions.
>Let's say I ran 4 stages and DNF, through out the high and
>low.
Correct.
>Now 2 stages are counted, are these compared to the winning
>time on the SAME two stages ONLY, and applied to the next
>rally entered?
Correct (and your speed factor, for this rally, is the average of the speed factors for those two stages). Correct.
>And is it true that I can only go UP in speedfactor from
>here in .5 of a year?
Correct.
If my answers are incorrect, I am sure that someone will let us know.
Doug Woods
I am certainly not an authority on speed factors, as I only read the regulations myself three days ago. However, I will attempt to answer your questions.
>Let's say I ran 4 stages and DNF, through out the high and
>low.
Correct.
>Now 2 stages are counted, are these compared to the winning
>time on the SAME two stages ONLY, and applied to the next
>rally entered?
Correct (and your speed factor, for this rally, is the average of the speed factors for those two stages). Correct.
>And is it true that I can only go UP in speedfactor from
>here in .5 of a year?
Correct.
If my answers are incorrect, I am sure that someone will let us know.
Doug Woods
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32 Posts
You speed factor is the best finish in the last 0.5 of a year. So it can increase instantly if you do well in a rally.
One thing to keep in mind, standalone ClubRallies ARE NOT used to update your speedfactor UNLESS you have an assigned speedfactor based on your SEED and by running a standalone club event you increase your SEED.
There seems to be a popular belief that standalone clubrallies are included in the speedfactor chart, but according to the way the rules are written, there is no procedure to do this.
Scott Radabaugh
One thing to keep in mind, standalone ClubRallies ARE NOT used to update your speedfactor UNLESS you have an assigned speedfactor based on your SEED and by running a standalone club event you increase your SEED.
There seems to be a popular belief that standalone clubrallies are included in the speedfactor chart, but according to the way the rules are written, there is no procedure to do this.
Scott Radabaugh
RE: updates?
Sorry George Not True. This is Al's attempt to quench an untruth right away.
John McArthur who does the speed factors was out of town for a while and when he got back his computer with all of the data was trashed. He had to rebuild it and I've supplied him with all of the data that I've received from him plus the results of LSPR. He is working on getting the speed factors updated w.r.t. LSPR and should have them shortly.
If you have important data, better back it up.
-al
Sorry George Not True. This is Al's attempt to quench an untruth right away.
John McArthur who does the speed factors was out of town for a while and when he got back his computer with all of the data was trashed. He had to rebuild it and I've supplied him with all of the data that I've received from him plus the results of LSPR. He is working on getting the speed factors updated w.r.t. LSPR and should have them shortly.
If you have important data, better back it up.
-al
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512 Posts
RE: updates?
Here is another example of the major problems in the SCCA Rally program(s) right now. Although this particular issue is not very important (WHY the speed factors have not been updated), information given from an 'official' PRB member, based on what he was told at an 'official' PRB meeting, (apparently) falsely accuses organizers of causing this lapse in SCCA duties.
We wonder why the PRB doesn't say much about the goings on in the SCCA? Looks to me like they are kept in the dark almost as much as the rest of us are. Hopefully Sue Robinson will be able to effect positive change from her new position...
Here is another example of the major problems in the SCCA Rally program(s) right now. Although this particular issue is not very important (WHY the speed factors have not been updated), information given from an 'official' PRB member, based on what he was told at an 'official' PRB meeting, (apparently) falsely accuses organizers of causing this lapse in SCCA duties.
We wonder why the PRB doesn't say much about the goings on in the SCCA? Looks to me like they are kept in the dark almost as much as the rest of us are. Hopefully Sue Robinson will be able to effect positive change from her new position...
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913 Posts
RE: updates?
A question from someone who doesn't know much about speed factors:
What if I don't run any Pro/concurrent Club events? How is my speed factor determined if I only run stand-alone Club events (for one reason or another, say that my car was broken for both Pro events in my area, and I only ran stand-alone Club events, which actually happened for me this year)?
Thanks!
KT
A question from someone who doesn't know much about speed factors:
What if I don't run any Pro/concurrent Club events? How is my speed factor determined if I only run stand-alone Club events (for one reason or another, say that my car was broken for both Pro events in my area, and I only ran stand-alone Club events, which actually happened for me this year)?
Thanks!
KT
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2,229 Posts
RE: updates?
>What if I don't run any Pro/concurrent Club events? How is
>my speed factor determined if I only run stand-alone Club
>events (for one reason or another, say that my car was
>broken for both Pro events in my area, and I only ran
>stand-alone Club events, which actually happened for me this
>year)?
I believe that your SpeedFactor (like that SCCA spelling?) is determined by your relative speed with respect to others who have competed in a Pro or Pro/Club event.
That is, winner of the Club event receives a 1.00 speed factor for that one event. Your speed factor is a percentage of that. Let's say .90.
Ok, now, say that the winner of the Club event ran at Wild West, and achieved a speed factor of .80, where Pasi Hagstrom got a 1.00.
Your calculated overall Pro/Club speed factor is then .80x.90 or .72.
Make sense?
- Christian
>Thanks!
>
>KT
Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
>What if I don't run any Pro/concurrent Club events? How is
>my speed factor determined if I only run stand-alone Club
>events (for one reason or another, say that my car was
>broken for both Pro events in my area, and I only ran
>stand-alone Club events, which actually happened for me this
>year)?
I believe that your SpeedFactor (like that SCCA spelling?) is determined by your relative speed with respect to others who have competed in a Pro or Pro/Club event.
That is, winner of the Club event receives a 1.00 speed factor for that one event. Your speed factor is a percentage of that. Let's say .90.
Ok, now, say that the winner of the Club event ran at Wild West, and achieved a speed factor of .80, where Pasi Hagstrom got a 1.00.
Your calculated overall Pro/Club speed factor is then .80x.90 or .72.
Make sense?
- Christian
>Thanks!
>
>KT
Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
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1,643 Posts
RE: updates?
I actually like the speedfactor system, but it needs to be expanded to cover both Canadian and US events.
My seeding is different in Canada and I'm sure my speedfactor would be as well.
Start orders based on seed and not speedfactors are putting faster cars/behind slower ones which is going to lead to risk in passing on a stage.
Regards, John
I actually like the speedfactor system, but it needs to be expanded to cover both Canadian and US events.
My seeding is different in Canada and I'm sure my speedfactor would be as well.
Start orders based on seed and not speedfactors are putting faster cars/behind slower ones which is going to lead to risk in passing on a stage.
Regards, John
RE: updates?
Um, Christian...I think you have it a little sideways. If the fastest guy starting a ClubRally has a .90 speed factor and wins all the stages, his speed factor doesn't move. Everyone else, as I understand it, will be calculated based on .90 as the highest factor in this event. That is, if you run only 80% as fast as the fastest driver on the stage and he has a factor of .90, you get .80 x .90 = .72 for that stage.
Have I muddied it up completely?
Bruce
Um, Christian...I think you have it a little sideways. If the fastest guy starting a ClubRally has a .90 speed factor and wins all the stages, his speed factor doesn't move. Everyone else, as I understand it, will be calculated based on .90 as the highest factor in this event. That is, if you run only 80% as fast as the fastest driver on the stage and he has a factor of .90, you get .80 x .90 = .72 for that stage.
Have I muddied it up completely?
Bruce
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913 Posts
RE: updates?
So... even if I don't do any Pro or Pro/Club events, my speed factor (or SpeedFactor, thanks Christian!
) is based on the speed factor of the Clubbie who did?
Am I confused, or what!
KT
So... even if I don't do any Pro or Pro/Club events, my speed factor (or SpeedFactor, thanks Christian!
) is based on the speed factor of the Clubbie who did?Am I confused, or what!
KT
RE: updates?
>So... even if I don't do any Pro or Pro/Club events, my
>speed factor (or SpeedFactor, thanks Christian!) is based
>on the speed factor of the Clubbie who did?
That is correct. And although it may be our best option for determining speed factors for non-Prorally participants, I don't think it is as effective as some may think. Here's why:
Let's say we have a local hotshoe named Jim. Jim has his private Evo and is darn quick...runs around .95 when he enters the ProRallies in his area. He has something to prove at those ProRallies and buries his right foot in it to earn that .95, but he does know the roads there and that helps him a little. He rarely finishes the ProRallies though, because he is trying so hard to "run with the big boys." He gets a high SF nonetheless, though, due to the process.
A month later, Jim enters his local ClubRally. Jim is put first on road and another gent, John, is put second on road with a .87 and the rest of the field goes down in factor from there.
Jim can drive 100% like he did at the ProRally and may not finish, but why would he? If he drives 80%, he will still beat John and take far fewer chances and still win the event.
Now everyone who attended that ClubRally has an artificially inflated SF. If the folks run just Club, that is okay, but if this scenario plays out a few times and they get bumped up, they are grossly misplaced when they decide to go elsewhere or go to a ProRally.
It happens. I've seen it.
The intensity of competition at the top level of a ClubRally often is not as close as it is at a ProRally. This is the result.
>So... even if I don't do any Pro or Pro/Club events, my
>speed factor (or SpeedFactor, thanks Christian!
) is based >on the speed factor of the Clubbie who did?
That is correct. And although it may be our best option for determining speed factors for non-Prorally participants, I don't think it is as effective as some may think. Here's why:
Let's say we have a local hotshoe named Jim. Jim has his private Evo and is darn quick...runs around .95 when he enters the ProRallies in his area. He has something to prove at those ProRallies and buries his right foot in it to earn that .95, but he does know the roads there and that helps him a little. He rarely finishes the ProRallies though, because he is trying so hard to "run with the big boys." He gets a high SF nonetheless, though, due to the process.
A month later, Jim enters his local ClubRally. Jim is put first on road and another gent, John, is put second on road with a .87 and the rest of the field goes down in factor from there.
Jim can drive 100% like he did at the ProRally and may not finish, but why would he? If he drives 80%, he will still beat John and take far fewer chances and still win the event.
Now everyone who attended that ClubRally has an artificially inflated SF. If the folks run just Club, that is okay, but if this scenario plays out a few times and they get bumped up, they are grossly misplaced when they decide to go elsewhere or go to a ProRally.
It happens. I've seen it.
The intensity of competition at the top level of a ClubRally often is not as close as it is at a ProRally. This is the result.
RE: updates?
Lurch makes a good point, but there's also the 1.00 driver in a ProRally who has nine minutes on the field and is stroking...raising everyone's SF accordingly, INCLUDING, it seems, the included ClubRally guys. Your SF for a stage is based on the SF of the guy that wins the stage, even if he's running 8/10ths.
It ain't a perfect system...IMNSHO, it needs a larger statistical universe, like the old seeding system had.
Bruce
Lurch makes a good point, but there's also the 1.00 driver in a ProRally who has nine minutes on the field and is stroking...raising everyone's SF accordingly, INCLUDING, it seems, the included ClubRally guys. Your SF for a stage is based on the SF of the guy that wins the stage, even if he's running 8/10ths.
It ain't a perfect system...IMNSHO, it needs a larger statistical universe, like the old seeding system had.
Bruce
RE: updates?
>Lurch makes a good point, but there's also the 1.00 driver
>in a ProRally who has nine minutes on the field and is
>stroking...raising everyone's SF accordingly, INCLUDING, it
>seems, the included ClubRally guys. Your SF for a stage is
>based on the SF of the guy that wins the stage, even if he's
>running 8/10ths.
>
>It ain't a perfect system...IMNSHO, it needs a larger
>statistical universe, like the old seeding system had.
>
>Bruce
Sandbagging in the ProRally as your 1.00 guy is doing affects everybody else equally. Sanbagging for a top guy in a ClubRally does not.
Let's look at Tom, now. He is in a decent 2wd car at the ClubRally and has run a few Clubrallies in the past. He runs 90% of Jim's speed and earns a ( .95 x .90) .86 (actually .855...do they round up?). But really Jim was keeping an eye on John and only had to run at a comfortable .89 pace instead of his "goferbroke ProRally speed" of .95.
Another month later, Tom enters a ProRally with his .86 when his actual speed only merits a (.89 x .90) .80. Look at the chart of drivers at
http://www.rally-america.com/info/competitor/20031210_speed_rank.html
THERE ARE 112 DRIVERS listed there in the .80 to .86 range. Moreover, as a driver who has run 16 Nationals in 2 years, I know how hard it is to improve a SF from within the ProRally ranks. I also have seen how long it takes for these artificially inflated factors to "bleed down" to where they belong.
Again, just pointing out that its not perfect. No, I don't have a better suggestion.
>Lurch makes a good point, but there's also the 1.00 driver
>in a ProRally who has nine minutes on the field and is
>stroking...raising everyone's SF accordingly, INCLUDING, it
>seems, the included ClubRally guys. Your SF for a stage is
>based on the SF of the guy that wins the stage, even if he's
>running 8/10ths.
>
>It ain't a perfect system...IMNSHO, it needs a larger
>statistical universe, like the old seeding system had.
>
>Bruce
Sandbagging in the ProRally as your 1.00 guy is doing affects everybody else equally. Sanbagging for a top guy in a ClubRally does not.
Let's look at Tom, now. He is in a decent 2wd car at the ClubRally and has run a few Clubrallies in the past. He runs 90% of Jim's speed and earns a ( .95 x .90) .86 (actually .855...do they round up?). But really Jim was keeping an eye on John and only had to run at a comfortable .89 pace instead of his "goferbroke ProRally speed" of .95.
Another month later, Tom enters a ProRally with his .86 when his actual speed only merits a (.89 x .90) .80. Look at the chart of drivers at
http://www.rally-america.com/info/competitor/20031210_speed_rank.html
THERE ARE 112 DRIVERS listed there in the .80 to .86 range. Moreover, as a driver who has run 16 Nationals in 2 years, I know how hard it is to improve a SF from within the ProRally ranks. I also have seen how long it takes for these artificially inflated factors to "bleed down" to where they belong.
Again, just pointing out that its not perfect. No, I don't have a better suggestion.
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RE: updates?
As I said earlier in this thread, entering only standalone Club events WILL NOT generate a Speed Factor for you.
The driver I crew for was in exactly this situation for the last two years. We only ran standalone club events and our speedfactor WAS NEVER UPDATED from a guestimated value that was assigned by McArthur. We requested it be updated numerous times based on top 3 club event finishes, only to be told that there was no procedure to do so until we ran a national event.
This fall, I put together a rather large spreadsheet that analyzed the 5 club rallies we ran this year and calculated out a speedfactor for every entrant based on a method similar to what Christian mentioned above. For those that had speedfactors established at national events, I compared their actual speedfactor to the one calculated off my method and there was no statistical difference in the populations. (as Lurch is worried about)
I forwarded the proposed method and spreadsheet to John McArthur offering to help implement the proposed method (including calcing all the speedfactors for club events) and kindly asked if he would consider updating our assigned (not based on a national finish) speedfactor based on this analysis. Mr. McArthur mentioned that he had thought about such a method, but it was too hard to implement and no, he would not update the speedfactor.
Our Navigator then contacted a ProRally official with the same spreadsheet and they offered to take it up at the next meeting and a few weeks later, the speed factor was updated.
ACCORDING TO THE CURRENT RULES, THERE IS NO PROCEDURE TO UPDATE YOUR SPEEDFACTOR BASED ON A STANDALONE CLUB EVENT other than appealing your speedfactor to the PRB and having them assign you a new one.
So how does Colorado Cog update the speedfactor list, I don't know. And why is it that most of the people who's speedfactors changed on that update didn't run Colorado Cog...I don't know.
If anyone has an interest in my analysis, I would be happy to discuss it and/or forward a copy to you.
Scott Radabaugh
As I said earlier in this thread, entering only standalone Club events WILL NOT generate a Speed Factor for you.
The driver I crew for was in exactly this situation for the last two years. We only ran standalone club events and our speedfactor WAS NEVER UPDATED from a guestimated value that was assigned by McArthur. We requested it be updated numerous times based on top 3 club event finishes, only to be told that there was no procedure to do so until we ran a national event.
This fall, I put together a rather large spreadsheet that analyzed the 5 club rallies we ran this year and calculated out a speedfactor for every entrant based on a method similar to what Christian mentioned above. For those that had speedfactors established at national events, I compared their actual speedfactor to the one calculated off my method and there was no statistical difference in the populations. (as Lurch is worried about)
I forwarded the proposed method and spreadsheet to John McArthur offering to help implement the proposed method (including calcing all the speedfactors for club events) and kindly asked if he would consider updating our assigned (not based on a national finish) speedfactor based on this analysis. Mr. McArthur mentioned that he had thought about such a method, but it was too hard to implement and no, he would not update the speedfactor.
Our Navigator then contacted a ProRally official with the same spreadsheet and they offered to take it up at the next meeting and a few weeks later, the speed factor was updated.
ACCORDING TO THE CURRENT RULES, THERE IS NO PROCEDURE TO UPDATE YOUR SPEEDFACTOR BASED ON A STANDALONE CLUB EVENT other than appealing your speedfactor to the PRB and having them assign you a new one.
So how does Colorado Cog update the speedfactor list, I don't know. And why is it that most of the people who's speedfactors changed on that update didn't run Colorado Cog...I don't know.
If anyone has an interest in my analysis, I would be happy to discuss it and/or forward a copy to you.
Scott Radabaugh
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