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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Rally is going to die in the US if it dosent have SPECTATORS.
The organisers seem to be obsessed with keeping spectators at bay.
They need to go to Europe and to some WRC events and see what go's
on and see how we run rally's...I agree with safety 100% but SPECTATORS standing on an outside corner which I have seen in the US
As you know if a car runs off it will run to the outside corner as a rally driver I know as dose every other rally driver.

EVERY SPORT NEEDS SPECTATORS....NO SPECTATORS NO RALLY. look at F1 or nas car soccer base ball and the list goes on.
 

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>NO SPECTATORS NO RALLY....

Pffffttt..

Rally in the U.S. did just without them for 25 years.

Rally is NOT a spectator sport!

Perhaps that forest sprint racing stuff they have now is for spectators. Morph it into stadium racing and you'll get tons of spectators.... just don't call it rally.
 

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and while were at it how about a major national sponsor? general acceptance from the mass populous, multilple manufactureer envolvement, kittens for stage workers, free cake for co-drivers?:+
 

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>..kittens for stage workers....

Back in the 70's when running the East African Safari, Fiat used to fly in prostitutes from Europe for their drivers. Oh wait... you said "kittens".

I got all confused.
 

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RE: Spectators & hookers

- Fly hookers to the rally? That's impractical and expensive....

- Hell, John Nagel put a special stage right past the "Mustang Ranch" at the "Reno International"!

- The winner, Sarel van Merwe, thanked him for that at the awards...
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
>and while were at it how about a major national sponsor?
>general acceptance from the mass populous, multilple
>manufactureer envolvement, kittens for stage workers, free
>cake for co-drivers?:+


When there was a good chance for rally in the US ...You had
Subaru...Mitsubishi...Ford...Hyundi.
But the BIG SHOT'S destroyed it and they pulled out.

Also the priveteer was getting no fair play.
 

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eating dust taking photos
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>Rally is going to die in the US if it dosent have
>SPECTATORS.
>The organisers seem to be obsessed with keeping spectators at
>bay.
>They need to go to Europe and to some WRC events and see what
>go's
>on and see how we run rally's...I agree with safety 100% but
>SPECTATORS standing on an outside corner which I have seen in
>the US
>As you know if a car runs off it will run to the outside
>corner as a rally driver I know as dose every other rally
>driver.
>
>EVERY SPORT NEEDS SPECTATORS....NO SPECTATORS NO RALLY. look
>at F1 or nas car soccer base ball and the list goes on.


Okey dokey.

You have the solution! It was so simple.


Wait!



Oh geez. I just had a thought. Know what else they have in Europe and in the rest of the world? Enough workers or not enough lawyers to provide spectator locations. American's can't be trusted to expect coffee to be hot, we certainly can't look after our selves.

But I'll remember this if we ever get our winter rally going. Forget manning the intersections and put one worker at the finish controls, but have hundreds of great spectator areas. Got it!

Spectators are only good if you can inform them, organize them, and sadly control them. Get an extra 50 workers to an event, tell the organizers in advance and see how many spectator areas they can find!

How about this, NO VOLUNTEERS NO RALLY! I can't really think of one event that has enough workers that the organizers can sit down and go "hrm, I wonder where we'll put So and SO".
 

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www.christianedstrom.com
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Wow, this is so far off base on so many levels, I don't know where to start...

Mitsubishi pulled out due to non-rally-related financial issues. Subaru pulled out due to lack of competition. Air Force Reserve pulled out due to lack of a TV program, given the withdrawal of Mitsubishi and Subaru. On event spectating had nothing to do with it.

Also, I don't know what events you've been going to, but at the events I've attended this year, the spectator controls have been better than at any national event I've attended in Europe.

- Christian

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
 

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I could not agree more. This is a very sore subject amongst US rallyists. It's seems odd to me that most of us want to adopt many of Europe's rally classes, regulations, practices, etc, but we are reluctant to accept the exposure and spectators that would normally be associated with rally.
By now some of you will have already started responding to my post with the words "liability stupid" or "uncontrollable situations" - whatever...! How ignorant of us. How do we expect to breed new blood into the sport without exposing it? What reason would any prospective sponsor want to support us if no one is in the forest to see us? Is the currently very limited TV coverage enough to stimulate someone to invest tens of thousands of dollars towards a rally effort?
The spectator issue is the most neglected subject in rally - I believe. We are all guilty for side-stepping the issue, ignoring the demands and trends of our sport, and worse still - deliberately discouraging spectating!!! Our organizers are the worst culprits of this. Their efforts to accommodate spectators in any quantity are feeble at best. How many rallies have we all been to where there were quality spectator guides with proper safety information, accurate spectator area maps, safety diagrams and appropriate warnings? How many times have you met trained spectator marshals in the forest instead of just some warm body with an orange vest? Organizers are so swamped with their regular organizing duties, they devote little or no time at all to accommodating the most important customer of all...the SPECTATOR! They somehow think that they are saving resources, but in fact they are wasting an opportunity to invest in the one thing that will yield the largest return - increased competitor and spectator attendance, increased revenues and...status. It is the competitor that pays the big bucks but the spectator is equally important to the success of the event for it is there where the future of our sport lies.
I realize that we are not ready yet to accept the huge number of spectators that Europe and other countries enjoy (and probably will never see in this country) but surely we can attract and safely control modest numbers (perhaps 5-10,000 or more per event) with proper planning and worker training. Our Canadian friends do this regularly with apparent ease, so why can't we do it? I think it's time that Rally America, NASA and the organizers get serious about appointing professionals to promote and plan for enjoyable yet safe spectating.
Rally is a spectator sport and it always was! So let's treat it as such and maybe we can help prevent the decline of rally in the US.

Constantine
 

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>attract and safely control modest numbers (perhaps 5-10,000 or
>more per event) with proper planning and worker training. Our
>Canadian friends do this regularly with apparent ease, so why

I'm impressed. Which Canadian events "attract and safely control... 5-10,000 or more per event?"
Or are you saying between 5 per event and 10,000 or more per event?
 

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eating dust taking photos
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>I could not agree more. This is a very sore subject amongst
>US rallyists. It's seems odd to me that most of us want to
>adopt many of Europe's rally classes, regulations, practices,
>etc, but we are reluctant to accept the exposure and
>spectators that would normally be associated with rally.
>By now some of you will have already started responding to my
>post with the words "liability stupid" or "uncontrollable
>situations" - whatever...! How ignorant of us. How do we
>expect to breed new blood into the sport without exposing it?

How about keeping events alive too? If you have been around on this site for a while you'll know that I am a huge advocate of promotion, and live bodies spectating is a key component of this. But it is far more complicated than most of us want to admit. When organizers struggle to fully staff their operational posts there simply is no time or resources to dedicate on any significant scale to spectators. Most events, relative to the time and manpower demands do a more than ample job of providing spectating oppurtunities


>What reason would any prospective sponsor want to support us
>if no one is in the forest to see us? Is the currently very
>limited TV coverage enough to stimulate someone to invest tens
>of thousands of dollars towards a rally effort?
>The spectator issue is the most neglected subject in rally - I
>believe. We are all guilty for side-stepping the issue,
>ignoring the demands and trends of our sport, and worse still
>- deliberately discouraging spectating!!! Our organizers are
>the worst culprits of this. Their efforts to accommodate
>spectators in any quantity are feeble at best.



See my earlier reply. In my experience ost organizers would love to accomodate thousands of spectators but lack the man power to even attempt such an undertaking. Please do not blame the VOLUNTEER organizers for not having an excess of VOLUNTEERs to dedicate to spectating.



How many
>rallies have we all been to where there were quality spectator
>guides with proper safety information, accurate spectator area
>maps, safety diagrams and appropriate warnings? How many times
>have you met trained spectator marshals in the forest instead
>of just some warm body with an orange vest? Organizers are so
>swamped with their regular organizing duties, they devote
>little or no time at all to accommodating the most important
>customer of all...the SPECTATOR! They somehow think that they
>are saving resources, but in fact they are wasting an
>opportunity to invest in the one thing that will yield the
>largest return - increased competitor and spectator
>attendance, increased revenues and...status.


If organizers are wasting resources please tell me where they can cut the fat. As an aspiring organizer I'd love to know what everybody else is doing wrong so I don't make the same mistakes....


It is the
>competitor that pays the big bucks but the spectator is
>equally important to the success of the event for it is there
>where the future of our sport lies.
>I realize that we are not ready yet to accept the huge number
>of spectators that Europe and other countries enjoy (and
>probably will never see in this country) but surely we can
>attract and safely control modest numbers (perhaps 5-10,000 or
>more per event) with proper planning and worker training.

Still need warm bodies to man these positions. Some of the canadian events have prospered from local support on being able to construct and create great spectator locations and benefit from sufficent workers to be able to run their events and staff these locations. There is no reason why this couldn't be extended to the US if the manpower could be consistently available.

Our
>Canadian friends do this regularly with apparent ease, so why
>can't we do it? I think it's time that Rally America, NASA and
>the organizers get serious about appointing professionals to
>promote and plan for enjoyable yet safe spectating.
>Rally is a spectator sport and it always was! So let's treat
>it as such and maybe we can help prevent the decline of rally
>in the US.
>
>Constantine


I look forward to hearing about all the events you volunteered to work at!

Edit to add: I didn't mean the last comment to be flippant, although it does kind of come across as such. In light of other posters comments I commend Constantine, and all the other hard working dedicated volunteers that travel near and far to give up their time for this sport. My call to get involved in this case was mis directed.
 

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straight at T
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>>attract and safely control modest numbers (perhaps 5-10,000
>or
>>more per event) with proper planning and worker training.
>Our
>>Canadian friends do this regularly with apparent ease, so
>why
>
>I'm impressed. Which Canadian events "attract and safely
>control... 5-10,000 or more per event?"
>Or are you saying between 5 per event and 10,000 or more per
>event?
>

Probably Charlevoix and Quebec were in that region. Both events are now no longer run (for various reasons). Quebec sold 3000+ tickets for the grandstands at the Hippodrome, IIRC.

I doubt if any current Canadian events are in the top end of that range.

Adrian
 

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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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KevinG5Hahn
>I look forward to hearing about all the events you (Constantine)
>volunteered to work at!

Constantine has been the primary organizer for many rallycrosses in the NY area. He was also an instructor at the Ski Sawmill rally school/rally, which I attended years ago. You can also find him volunteering at most events on the east coast that he's not running, and when he's running, you can often find him assisting new navigators. He's been around long enough that I'm sure I'm missing a long list of volunteer duties he's racked up.

Cheers,
Anders
 

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Four tree two remember Andrew
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>I look forward to hearing about all the events you volunteered
>to work at!

I second that for Constantine. In addition to what Anders said, he has been intimately involved in the growth of Rally New York.
 

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eating dust taking photos
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>KevinG5Hahn
>>I look forward to hearing about all the events you
>(Constantine)
>>volunteered to work at!
>
>Constantine has been the primary organizer for many
>rallycrosses in the NY area. He was also an instructor at the
>Ski Sawmill rally school/rally, which I attended years ago.
>You can also find him volunteering at most events on the east
>coast that he's not running, and when he's running, you can
>often find him assisting new navigators. He's been around long
>enough that I'm sure I'm missing a long list of volunteer
>duties he's racked up.
>
>Cheers,
>Anders


It is great to hear that. If people want change they need to be part of the solution. So refreshing to hear that someone that wants whole scale change is actually trying to do something about it instead of just clamoring about it.
I really do mean this.
 

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Faster Mabricator
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>KevinG5Hahn
>>I look forward to hearing about all the events you
>(Constantine)
>>volunteered to work at!

I'll vouch for Constantine being event chairman, safety steward, marshall, codriver/driver coach, a great mechanic, and all-around ambassador of the sport.
 

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R3 Slippy
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Rally will "die" in the US when competitors decide that it's too expensive to compete. As long as there is a group of people who will spend X amount to play in the woods for a weekend, there will be rally in the US.

Exposure is a double-edged sword, especially in the US. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a series sponsor and and TV package that would offset our entry fees and make us more marketable to sponsors. However, the more visible we are to the public, the more visible we are to environmental groups, activists, lawyers, and insurance agencies. With the way things go here in the US, I sometimes wonder if our best chance at survival is to flow low on the radar.

Chris Gilligan
#27
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
>>NO SPECTATORS NO RALLY....
>
>Pffffttt..
>
>Rally in the U.S. did just without them for 25 years.
>
>Rally is NOT a spectator sport!
>
>Perhaps that forest sprint racing stuff they have now is for
>spectators. Morph it into stadium racing and you'll get tons
>of spectators.... just don't call it rally.
>
>
You don't have to move it into a stadium...Do like what they do in the rest of the world ...Charge a small fee...Give them a tag so they can access the stages for viewing dont coral them in like they are wild animals.
Again you need spectators for exspouser for sponcers and manufacturers.
And where do you get that through Spectators and viewers.
You say ye have been rallying for 25 years and no spectators...Would there be Baseball without spectators?????
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
>I could not agree more. This is a very sore subject amongst
>US rallyists. It's seems odd to me that most of us want to
>adopt many of Europe's rally classes, regulations, practices,
>etc, but we are reluctant to accept the exposure and
>spectators that would normally be associated with rally.
>By now some of you will have already started responding to my
>post with the words "liability stupid" or "uncontrollable
>situations" - whatever...! How ignorant of us. How do we
>expect to breed new blood into the sport without exposing it?
>What reason would any prospective sponsor want to support us
>if no one is in the forest to see us? Is the currently very
>limited TV coverage enough to stimulate someone to invest tens
>of thousands of dollars towards a rally effort?
>The spectator issue is the most neglected subject in rally - I
>believe. We are all guilty for side-stepping the issue,
>ignoring the demands and trends of our sport, and worse still
>- deliberately discouraging spectating!!! Our organizers are
>the worst culprits of this. Their efforts to accommodate
>spectators in any quantity are feeble at best. How many
>rallies have we all been to where there were quality spectator
>guides with proper safety information, accurate spectator area
>maps, safety diagrams and appropriate warnings? How many times
>have you met trained spectator marshals in the forest instead
>of just some warm body with an orange vest? Organizers are so
>swamped with their regular organizing duties, they devote
>little or no time at all to accommodating the most important
>customer of all...the SPECTATOR! They somehow think that they
>are saving resources, but in fact they are wasting an
>opportunity to invest in the one thing that will yield the
>largest return - increased competitor and spectator
>attendance, increased revenues and...status. It is the
>competitor that pays the big bucks but the spectator is
>equally important to the success of the event for it is there
>where the future of our sport lies.
>I realize that we are not ready yet to accept the huge number
>of spectators that Europe and other countries enjoy (and
>probably will never see in this country) but surely we can
>attract and safely control modest numbers (perhaps 5-10,000 or
>more per event) with proper planning and worker training. Our
>Canadian friends do this regularly with apparent ease, so why
>can't we do it? I think it's time that Rally America, NASA and
>the organizers get serious about appointing professionals to
>promote and plan for enjoyable yet safe spectating.
>Rally is a spectator sport and it always was! So let's treat
>it as such and maybe we can help prevent the decline of rally
>in the US.
>
>Constantine

AT least some one IN THE US understands the concept of Rallying.
Theres no point in haveing the squirrls and the bears looking
at sponcers and manfacturers flying through the woods.
( NO SALE THERE )
 
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