Jens I'm pretty certain most people who have had the misfortune of reading your posts realize that you are not the least concerned with the well being of other humans. Seals of course have your full attention.:+
PS Isn't labelling your post "spectator safety kinda like making a comment. And I was looking forward to your promise of no comment.
Jens - having done the event in 02,3,4 I can tell you you are not wrong - by the standards we have now in rally.
In '02 someone ran across the road in front of us and we probably missed him by 4-5 feet. PPIHC is different than a usual rally, and photos can be deceptive (in how they may show speed).
I can tell you however that I felt safer (for myself and the spectators) "at speed" on that road than in places on many rallies.
(and I've spin twice onthe hill)
Not knowing the facts of the accident from Monday, I expect there might be some changes made to where spectators/workers can be.
The events is however one of the last great trials remaining for an "amateur" racer - You REALLY owe it to yourself to go - even if just to watch (the whole area is simply fantastic).
I too want the event to be safe - not only for my own selfish reasons, I was sorry I could not run this year.
>Not knowing the facts of the accident from Monday, I expect
>there might be some changes made to where spectators/workers
There will likely be some changes but nothing too drastic. Preliminary indications are that the worker did not know there was an other vehicle coming and as such was leaving his worker post when the car came through at speed and struck him in the road.
The best and most likely only signifigant change made in light of this accident will be the FORMAL use of a course clearing car to officially inform workers and spectators that there will be no additional up hill race traffic until the course is re-opened.
As for the spectators this was the first time I was not at the turn that Jens has problems with in 5 years. I have been on the inside and outside of the turn. In this 5 year period I have only witnessed two incidents where spectators were potentially in harms way of more than gravel spray and neither of these were signifigant. One time was when a super stock car lost its brakes coming into the turn and took a line that was about 15 feet outside of the rest of the previous racers. The other time was the same year when an open wheel car spun slightly in the hairpin and cut the turn tight and sent some spectators running although the spectators started running well before the car made it to the turn. From my own stand point I am more concerned with having a rock from above hit me than a car even getting close to hitting me.
Part of the safety record for Pikes Peak is the combination of experienced spectators and the fact that since it is so uphill there is less of a chance of coming into a turn too fast.
In my opinion having been at the event there are a couple things that could be done. First and foremost on the inside of that hairpin some level of crowd control would be beneficial if for no other reason than having 50 people in such a small area is just not smart. The other would be to prevent having people on the outside of turns with exposure.
There are very few events where I can feel as safe at the event and as confident in crossing the road as at Pikes Peak. Please don't let the nannyist attitude of people that have no real life expereince with the event taint this truly unique experience.
And for the record Bresciani's death is one of only a few for non competitors in 83 years. In fact I want to say its one of maybe 2 or 3 if that many. As far as I know no spectator has ever been killed, but I may be wrong about that.
Bresciani is the first race official to be killed and the fourth person to be killed in connection with the race, now in its 83rd year. Ralph Chandler Bruning Jr., a stock car driver, died in an accident in 2001; Bill Gross, a motorcycle racer, died in 1982; and driver Wallace Coleman died in 1921.
PPIHC has always been that way, and I hope always will. It makes the spectating incredible, and I can't even think of when/if a spectator has been injured there (but I don't follow it that closely anymore so could be in error).
I refuse to click on the pictures as I am pretty sure from reading the responses that I know what they are of. The only thing is Jens, in your short-sighted ignorant view, that you display all to often and prominently, you fail to realize that this is actually a safety issue for the competitors. For example, the last hairpin on the course always, always has people standing on the outside, if not, you wouldn't be too sure of where it is. In fact, an experienced hill climber told us, brake when you see the people. They actually make it safer because with the spectators on the outside of the hairpins you truly know when you need to shut it down and keep from dropping a few thousand feet into Colorado Springs (or Victor). You also fail to realize that every driver up there has been on the course the entire week (virtually spectator free). Look back and find out when the last big off was on race day. Not too frequently or recently. These are world class race car drivers.
The death this year was a total fluke, no fault to anyone honestly. Anyone who knows the true story recognizes it. Don't try to blame it on PPIHC or anyone else. It is disrespectful to Henry and his entire family. He died doing what he loved to do. I honestly can only hope to die doing something I love as opposed to a slow debilitating death due to cancer or such.
Dear Jens. Shut up already. Your opinion means nothing to me or anyone close to me. Rally has outgrown you. Now time for sleep for me. It's been a long week.
PS> Didn't we get into this last year with Aaron and I basically saying that people needed to quite judging this event until they came and experienced it. Apparently you missed that point.
Now I shall flood the bandwidth!!!
Edited to add: All pics taken by a guy from Audiworld.com named Chupacabra. There may be more up there in a few days. They had about 30-40 people at George's corner watching. Now, bandwidth!
>PS> Didn't we get into this last year with Aaron and I
>basically saying that people needed to quite judging this
>event until they came and experienced it. Apparently you
>missed that point.
Yeah, we did get into it last year. Basically I had the audacity to suggest the PPIHC's attitude towards safety was a liability for the SCCA (at that time). For this I was derided as an idiot, a NWO pessimist, etc.. Well, this year someone was killed, and apparently I'm still an idiot for thinking that this might have been preventable. I stick by my comments of last year: If I were RA I'd think very seriously about continuing involvement with this event unless some major changes are made.
If I were RA I'd think very seriously about
>continuing involvement with this event unless some major
>changes are made.
Yes, they're going to make changes. They'll have a course closing car (now there's real progress x( ).
> you fail to realize that
>this is actually a safety issue for the competitors. For
>example, the last hairpin on the course always, always has
>people standing on the outside, if not, you wouldn't be too
>sure of where it is. In fact, an experienced hill climber
>told us, brake when you see the people. They actually make it
>safer because with the spectators on the outside of the
>hairpins you truly know when you need to shut it down and keep
>from dropping a few thousand feet into Colorado Springs (or
One quick question for you (actually 2). Whose saftey are we (the sanctioning body) more concerned with, the competitor or the spectator? Who has signed a waiver, the spectator, the competitor or both?
>Yeah, we did get into it last year. Basically I had the
>audacity to suggest the PPIHC's attitude towards safety was a
>liability for the SCCA (at that time). For this I was derided
>as an idiot, a NWO pessimist, etc.. Well, this year someone
>was killed, and apparently I'm still an idiot for thinking
>that this might have been preventable. I stick by my comments
>of last year: If I were RA I'd think very seriously about
>continuing involvement with this event unless some major
>changes are made.
My point exactly. You make assumptions based upon pictures and hearsay not on experience. Come experience the event and I will start to take you opinion of it seriously. Now, more flooding! We charged a little hard and sprayed all the Audi fans.
Both equally. The real threat to spectators is from the rooster tails. I agree with closed course rally events. I don't think the common US citizen has the brains to be able to spectate an open course rally and unfortunately also don't believe in taking responsibility for their own safety and well being and are sue happy. A hill climb like Pike's Peak is different though. You know how many cars had any offs this year? Very, very few. Know how many on race day? Zero. I'm over this conversation because I am not going to change anyone's opinion. Come out and do the event yourself some day. Then you'll understand.
> I don't think the common US citizen has the brains to be able to
>spectate an open course rally and unfortunately also don't
>believe in taking responsibility for their own safety and well
>being and are sue happy. Come out and do the event yourself some
>day. Then you'll understand.
Unfortunatly I am afraid you are correct Grant (US citizen part)- I believe Dennis is only speaking for the future good of the sport (Hillclimb AND Rally)-
Rally has learned the hard way the past two years, we don't want any of those lessons to go to waste.
Wish I were codriving w/Dennis there last weekend.
(maybe next year)
>Part of the safety record for Pikes Peak is the combination of
>experienced spectators and the fact that since it is so uphill
>there is less of a chance of coming into a turn too fast.
One of these you can count on. One of them you cannot.
>Your nannyist mindset does not jive with this event.
Wait... someone *died*, and this is your response? Wow.
>You know how many cars had any offs this year? Very, very few. Know how many on race day? Zero.
Look at the picture in the post immediately above yours. Car 456 is clearly 10-15 feet off the racing line. Next year someone could be 15-25.
I am amazed that someone touts "one of the last fantastic races for AMATEUR racers" and the next person says "they are all world class racers, there's nothing to worry about".
There wasn't a "Are you a world class driver?" check box on the entry form. Anyone with money gets to race. There is no guarantee of skill level.
I also don't buy the "you have to spectate it before you have a valid opinion on the safety of the event". We have many people domestically who could improve the safety. And many more out in the FIA world who could also improve it. And before anyone says "It doesn't NEED to be improved", I offer:
1) they've already said that improvements are coming. The people MOST INVOLVED with running it think it needs improvement. Surely they know more than you.
2) someone died this year.
>>The real threat to spectators is from the rooster tails.
>I can't see mudflaps in the photos of the Audi. (perhaps they
>are not required for PP non-rally cars).
>Perhaps the "real threat" you write of can be reduced if the
>PP organizers require mudflaps.
Because that would work oh so well on an open wheel car.
This conversation is pointless.
I refuse to at this point discuss the death of Henry Bresciani out of respect for his service and loss of life, I will however add numerous more experienced officials have inferred that Henry made a very fundamental lapse in judgement that lead to the accident.
Get this through your heads people, this is as far as any record I can find the first NON-COMPETITOR death in 83 years and it was an official in a highly restricted area with a high level of danger where no spectator or likely competitor would be allowed without direct supervision os safety workers.