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eating dust taking photos
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Some of you remember the contreversy that arose around Travis Pastrana's special seeding at Sno'Drift, this isn't about Travis by the way (although seeing him drive in person he probably more then deserved it).


This is about a Colorado competitor that wasn't allowed special seeding to compete in the SCCA portion of the PPIHC.

The competitor in question has 6 years racing experience on PP in a RWD 600+ hp open wheel car, he also finishes very close to the top and in practicing typically is one of if not the fastest guys.

I am just wondering what you guys think about a competitor with more experience on PP then anyone in ProRally, someone with all that experience in a vehicle with 10 times the performance capabilities (this competitors family also owns a Honda Civic rally car that the person in question has entered into events before, just not PPIHC) being denied the special status to compete in PPIHC.

I think its a bureaucratic load and this competitor should have gone straight to Sue and Doug, not the official channles like he did. He was denied sighting experience as the reason, I just don't get nor do I agree with that. This is a guy that can sit there and tell you what gear he takes what corner in at Pikes Peak months before the event.

Its just not right as far as I am concerned.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
SCCA wouldn't give him a high enough seed (the the official story from his team atleast), only has done a couple club rallies (2 maybe 3, I think he dnfed mechanical on one as well) as they are a side focus to the open wheel hill climbing.


There are a couple drivers I know of that didn't even bother since their seed's were too low, but thats neither here nor there.


I am not meaning to black eye the SCCA I just don't get it, maybe since I know the guy I am not being objective, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Edit to ad:
I am begining to think that the competitor in question just ended up speaking to the wrong person and got bad information, because thats the only thing that makes sense.
 

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L1 !!! HPR into HPL
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Not totally sure about what you are saying since your post says that he was aloud (allowed) special seeding to run the hillclimb. The rule book covers what it takes to get a Pro License (seed 5) and that a Pro License can also be had based on experience, etc. upon concurrence from the Pro Rally Series Manager, Dan Coughenour. That is the route to get the Pro License.

Pikes Peak, while it is a big deal and different than most other Pro Rallies is, for the sake of SCCA a Pro Rally requiring a Pro Rally License good for ALL Pro Rallies. There is not a route to get a license for just one particular event. And, base on other statements in your post that he had only run 3 events and didn't finish those, no matter how much Pikes Peak experience he had, it doesn't appear he met the Licensing requirements and I am sure there are many others who have run 3 Club Rallies with one or two DNFs who would like to get their own Pro License.

Don't think just the experience at a hill climb with 900 horse power and knowing every curve should mean a Pro License since with that license he can compete in any other Pro event.

David Weiman
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eating dust taking photos
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Dave, my appologies, it was a typo, if it wasn't obvious from the rest of the horrible spelling I was extremely tired.

It was meant to say wasn't allowed, not was aloud.

If he has a DNF its only one, I know he has finished atleast once.....


Also reading more through the rule book now that I have had a couple hours of sleep, you never realize how tired you are till you see something you did before getting some rest, and things are making more sense.

There are still some curious things afoot though. Tons of PPIHC experience alone may not be enough, but multiple years of hill climbing successfully I would think would be worth something, the impression I got was that they were waived off even when this was brought to light, and if a mechanical DNF is looked at the same ways as wadding a car well thats how it is.

I'll just hope to let lying dogs rest and get more of the story/the story again for confirmation from as many people as possible tomorrow and Saturday.
 

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L1 !!! HPR into HPL
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Thanks for the clarification, I still disagree with Uncle Joe, on Club Rally finish and one DNF still leaves the Competitor Seed 8 and not eligible for a Pro Rally License. Hope you understand this and my previous comment. It doesn't appear to be an SCCA or PRSM issue regarding the license, your friend just doesn't qualify based on experience or seeding, his Pikes Peak experience not withstanding.

Best regards,

David Weiman
[email protected]
 

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A pro licence can be granted based on prior experience. Fortunately this isn't handed out willy nilly to anyone who asks. Unfortunately, it is also probably subjective, and can sometimes deny those with the requisite skills a chance to run. In the end though, for the overall good of the sport, it is probably better to err on the side of safety, and your friend drew the short stick.

HTH.


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Disclosure: I have a Pro license, and was seed 8, now seed 7. I could probably improve my seed if I changed cars/classes. (there are also requirements for keeping your Pro license, which technically I have not met but they would almost be impossible for me to meet as H is not a pro class, yet I want to keep my Pro license to get an FIA license should I need to compete in overseas historic events.... blah blah)

If you're going to enter a Pro Rally event, you need a Pro Rally license (or FIA..). There are various ways to get a Pro Rally license based on prior experience.

I know who you are talking about and it sounds like he should be given a Pro license (at least based off the fact that I have one and I've never driven PPIHC in a 600+ HP car).

My only point is unless he was told he could run and then this changed when he showed up, there is ample time before a Pro event to clarify your eligibility.

If you can give more of a timeline of what was asked and what the answers were and when, it might shed some light on the issue.

I've found everyone at the SCCA pretty reasonable when it comes to licensing issues, particularly given my odd situation, providing you allow some time to work things through.

Shoot, I just wrote something about the SCCA that wasn't critical of them.

Glenn
 

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your other left, you idiot
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How about some FACTS ?

This looks like we are trying this in the court of public opinion without any information.

All we allegedly know is that this guy did NOT talk to Sue or Doug.

Have no idea who he did talk to, or what he said or did.

There is a lot of third hand info (from the guy's crew).

Yes, one can get a ProRally license without going the ClubRally route (would you deny Colin McRae a license?). See rules 2.1.D.1 "...or have the quivalent driving experience." and 2.1.D.3 "Other qualifying events and/or a waiver of these requirements may be approved by the PRSM, but only if the information is sent directly to the PRSM by Email, FAX or regular mail".

press on,
 

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eating dust taking photos
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I can't answer those questions, yet

I spoke with his Mother (in all likelihood she was the one that called or was there when he called), who races in the hill climbs, but not at PPIHC, and helps run their teams. Anyway, woke up sick this morning so I didn't head down to the mountain, I'll try to get a time line and names tomorrow.


What I am taking away from all of this is that something that I don't know about yet is probably why he didn't get in.


It could also be that the SCCA just asked for some documentation of non PPIHC experience and they felt it was too much of a bother, I don't know and won't till tomorrow if I'll ever know.


It wasn't meant to be a trial of the SCCA so much as a sounding board from people in the rally community that didn't know the competitor, which precluded me from talking to anyone else locally.


As I said, the gist of what has been mentioned is that in all likelihood had both parties done what they were supposed and recieved/gotten full information that he would have likely gotten the liscense. I'll try to find out where the failure in everything happened in that case.

Atleast I know while I may be too close to be objective I wasn't slightly outraged without a good basis.




Clearly some piece of information I am lacking holds the key to all of this. Atleast others agree that on the surface there shouldn't have been a problem, I'll try to dig deep and find out what the problem was then.
 

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RE: I can't answer those questions, yet

Based on the experience of 2-3 ClubRallies and 72 miles of Pikes Peak experience in a car that handles nothing like a rally car, I think the right decision was made.

Since that is the only experience you listed, that is all I have to go on.

By contrast, (not to dredge up this crap again, but) Travis won an AMA National Championship, raced a Porsche in sanctioned road racing, received one on one instruction from Prodrive/Subaru in a WRC car, AND went to Tim O'Neil's rally school. I think this qualified him to start in a snow rally.

In the end, though, it DOESN'T MATTER what I or Jimmy or Dave or anyone else thinks. It is up to the Pro Rally Series Manager and no one else. You don't have to like it. But someone has to have authority to make these calls.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
RE: I can't answer those questions, yet

Lurch, thats 72 race limes at PPIHC, but his dirt racing miles are more like 600 competitive miles dirt racing miles.


It doesn't matter though, there are questions that need answers to make this all make sense, answers a very select few have and answers I will try to find.


I am sure there is a reason the SCCA did what it did, at this point I just want to know why.
 

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Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
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RE: Not my call but...

I wouldn't want to be the chief steward explaining on camera why the car tumbling down bottomless pit (on eyewitness news) had a driver on a waiver in it.
It just may have been too high a profile event to take a chance.
rz
 
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>SCCA wouldn't give him a high enough seed (the the official
>story from his team atleast), only has done a couple club
>rallies (2 maybe 3, I think he dnfed mechanical on one as
>well) as they are a side focus to the open wheel hill
>climbing.


He DNF' at the COG in 2002 due to not having much luck with a rut on the 3rd stage. Since I had to help stuff his bumper back into the car, I'm reasonably sure wasn't a mechanical DNF :)

They also arrived at the event still needing to get the rally computer working.

Not atypical, but not overtly impressive, either.

I would conjecture that if a person has done a few club rallies, and the results aren't immediately impressive, that would work against you more than saying you've ran open wheel would help you.

Any logic to that?

As you state, though, you're operating on 2nd or 3rd hand info, so who knows what the real story was/is.


Who was going to co-drive for him? Was the co-driver Pro-licensed, or would he also have needed a waiver?



The truth is, no one really knows what the exact situation is.

Pastrana was waivered in well before the start of Sno-Drift.

We know virtually nothing of Keeney's situation, and the event is already underway. Either they put off starting the process to get the approval, or you have only just learned about it.

Do you know when they started the process?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Back at the beginning of May he expressed some interest. Do to some unfrotunate events I missed the early June hill climb and hadn't talked to him before this week so the time line is questionable.

His explanation from the 2002 cog off was that he went off and did some damage to the car but it should have been drivable but the car had been having some problems and he couldn't get it to run right (something was broken in the motor as they found out at the shop) and thats why he had no chance in hell of getting the car on the road on his own.


That was also their first rally, not many people complete their first rally without something going wrong.


There were a couple of people that were willing to co-drive for him, one person is co-driving in the event right now, a couple people with liscenses that would have made them eligible to compete but have new cars under construction and were willing to co-drive.




There is nothing more that can be said without more detailed information, information that I will try to get tomorrow, if I can't get it then we'll have ot leave as needing more information.
 

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RE: Not my call but...

Kevin, he needs to earn his Pro license. He has competed in 4 Rallies, DNF 2002 Colorado Cog (Crash), bottom 20% 2002 Ramada Express, Almost dead last 2003 Rim, Bottom 20% 2003 Colorado Cog. He and his mom blame his finnishes on a slow car, I almost believed them until I saw Steve Perret take a Honda Civic (less H.P than Jimmy) and hand almost everyone thier ass in Missouri at the nationals. He doesn't understand how Rally works and can't comprehend stage notes. He has to get much better to call himself a Pro.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
RE: Not my call but...

Fair enough.

I didn't get to talk to them on Saturady, they arrived after I left the pits and well, the headache for people parked at Devils Playground is well known. Without more information I was regretting posting this in the first place. This well represents the toils of a tired mind, and the pit falls of a live internet connection when coupled with a user so tired he can barely think but so awake he can't sleep.


I was also given some wrong information about his finishes. I don't claim to know many answers, thats why I ask a lot of questions :).


Nice run on satruday by the way, you guys looked good at 16 mile.


You coming up to Denver for the rallyX in august? As far as I know we are still working on making it a night event.


See you at a hill climb or rallyX or if all else fails cog.

You guys should go to Lands End in august though, and if you don't know why thats going to be special, well, e-mail me.


Jimmy seems to understand how to handle the car he can post rallyX times close to Brooks (I am by no means comparing rallyX to real rally but competency regarding how the car handles is genuinely reflected in both) but I can see the stage element being completely foriegn to him. That said I think he has the ability to be good on a stage if he simply could learn how to apply his skills, I think Pikes Peak would have been a great place for things to click for him since he knows the road so well to begin with.
 
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