Special Stage Forums banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,246 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
would a car that falls under the spec subie idea randy and i were talking about be allowed in the hands of a rookie? i would hope so.

awd w/na 2.2 liter engine pumping out a whopping 130 crank hp and 130 foot pounds of torque.

it would also be possible to tun the car into a FWD car by simply changing the trans.

it could also be turned into a fire breathing monster w/a simple motor swap.

[nomex]also if someone has a fire breathing monster they could just put a motor from a non turbo car in it for a while. they wouldnt HAVE to buy a new car.

323 had a non turbo motor

mitsubishi has nonturbo motors

subaru has nonturbo motors

so does ford chevy and everyone else.

they all make sub 130hp motors that could be put into the fire breathing turbo cars for a while.[/nomex]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
724 Posts
Greg not to rain on your parade but the 2.2l thing is a total waste of time. It should include the 2.5l motor since that is readily avaialbe still as opposed to the 2.2l plus a lot of people could convrt their exisiting RS into the class. If you want a spec class then you need people to run it and to require the 2.2l motor does not make sense in that respect. Good luck I wish you well.
 

·
Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
Joined
·
2,953 Posts
Mike H. has already singled out the simple sube (SS) as a great and preferred starter car.
http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID2/3044.html
post #61
Jeff,
There are more 2.2 cars at a lower price than 2.5RS cars.
The 2.2 engine won't scare the GF guys as easily as the 2.5, is bulletproof and found in greater numbers in the yards (all Legacys had them).
The plan was to run GF and SS as one class, grudge match!
(We've been thru this all before, I guess you missed it.)
Check '04 Maine results for Greg Healey, the PGT winner in a 2.2 super sube!
Also 11th OA at Sandblast '04 behind 7 EVOs http://www.rallyscoring.com/results/2004/Sandblast/index.htm
Not a waste of time in my book - go Greg!

rz
edit : added link and #61
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,246 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
you are not raining on my parade. i think you are wrong. besides i was asking if a 130hp 3000# 2.2 spec subie would be ok for a true rookie to the sport.

the 2.5 is not as tough as the 2.2. and it costs more than the 2.2 which is very available and very cheap. its just not offered in the US on NEW cars anymore. it was used from 1990-1999 and subaru sold alot of cars w/the EJ22 in them. i would imagine that every junkyard in america has at least an average 4 90-99 subaru legacies/imprezas in their yards w/ej22 in them. that is alot of ej22s.

pat broke transissions w/a 2.5. do you think he would have w/a bone stock 2.2?

it is about duability and learnig how to drive. there are several people that have built 2.2 powered subarus and there is no official class for them. and they all enjoy them. imagine if there was a structured class that we could keep going for several years. i think it would have at least 10 entrants at national events and 6-8 in every region at club rallies. hopefully more.

when i ran this up the flagpole at some subaru boards the response was very positive. alot more positive than here. but some days anything is more positive than here. so i guess that isnt saying very much.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,246 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
>Greg not to rain on your parade but the 2.2l thing is a
>total waste of time. It should include the 2.5l motor since
>that is readily avaialbe still as opposed to the 2.2l plus a
>lot of people could convrt their exisiting RS into the
>class. If you want a spec class then you need people to run
>it and to require the 2.2l motor does not make sense in that
>respect. Good luck I wish you well.

this seems to happen alot here.

a person has an idea.

another person doesnt like that plan. they say it is a bad idea and no one else could possibly like it either. they fail to realise that just because they dont like it doesnt mean no one else will like it. in fact many people may think it is a great idea. it is just not for them thats fine. everything isnt for everyone.

i use the term person people and they as collective examples in this case.

EDIT:

thanks for pointing that post out. hadnt seen it. ive been busy moving and dont have time to read the threads that get that long.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,368 Posts
>Mike H. has already singled out the simple sube (SS) as a
>great and preferred starter car.
>

From the other thread:
I have made the request that cars such as the 2.5 / 2.2 normally aspirated Subarus be permanently excepted (stock engines). I've always believed these are a good car for novices.

So far that's only my opinion / request, in the end it's not up to me.

The exception should also include normally aspirated 4WD cars like the Audi 4000 Quattro and Mitsubishi Galant GSX, with PGT legal powertrain.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
There are more 2.2L Imprezas out there than 2.5L ones. 2.5RS cars are still worth a little bit, you can pick up a 1995 2.2L AWD Impreza for less than $2k pretty easily these days, I bought one last year for $1200 and it was the top of the line model at the time. The engines are also very easy to get, since they used them in so many of the old cars. The 2.5 isn't exactly hard to get since they were used in the LGT, Outback, etc. but they are definitely more expensive still. Where you pay $250 for a complete 2.2L engine you may spend $500-750 on a complete 2.5L.

The phase 1 2.2 engines are 135hp/140ft-lbs and are bulletproof. I had the timing belt on mine come partially off due to a pulley coming off the block and I drove it another 70 miles with the belt eating a hole in the cover. The timing was barely on enough to keep the car running. I spent 30 minutes putting the belt back on and it was good to go and I've put 15k miles on it since.

The FWD trans doesn't bolt up to the 2.2 engine. If you look, only 1.8L Imprezas were FWD. They made 1.8L AWD models but not 2.2L FWD models.

If I ever build a car it will be a 2.2L Impreza to start off with. You can swap a 2.5L engine into one in a day if you want to upgrade.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
724 Posts
you miss my point entirely. The idea is not to poo poo on the 2.2l but rather to point out that there are a lot of 2.5l imprezas that are already prepped. I would imagine that htese people would want to be a part of a spec series and that if it is a car that is being sold here eventually may become interestedi nthe idea and put a little money behind it. The 2.5rs cup in OZ was very popular. I guess my thught is that why not find a way to include the 2.5 people? IF there are more rally prepped 2.2s running than 2.5s then I would say yeah then 2.2 makes sense but if it is the other way around then maybe it is worth a look. Perhaps you can run it as a two tiered series? A true spec seris is this: you can run these diffs they cost x and are available from y, engines are sealed, suspension is x for x price available from y. IF the motor is the only limiting factor then you have a one make championship and not a spec series just food for thought.
 

·
Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
Joined
·
2,953 Posts
And you miss our point entirely.
Making this into a structured, high dollar, high maintenance class is for the birds. Just run the cars, have fun and compare times. Making it all so structured with sealed this and approved that is expensive and uncool. I'd rather run a slower and cheaper car and whip the GF guys' butts than run with a group of 2.5s alone.
And if you have a 2.5 (like I do), it'd be pretty cheap to put in a 2.2. I have two in wrecks right now in the swamp. I'd never do that to a 2.5 'cause they are rare and valuable.
When the turbo guys get sick of fixing stuff, they'll find a $100 engine and join in too. It will just take time to get some cars out there so the fun will become contagious.
No one will get rich from this movement, they just won't be spending much to belong.
THAT is the point of it.
rz
edit: re-reading I see you want Subaru and/or prep shops and suppliers to back it and put up prize money.
Yuck! That'll cost everyone so much to chase after the bucks it'll poison everything good.
Cheap, affordable, inclusive and beat those 2wd guys with crap cars!
 

·
Mä meen vittu sinne!
Joined
·
6,058 Posts
The 2.2 is one of the strongest motors Subaru has ever made. The Legacy had a 2.2 FWD model. That is what mine is. I have original tranny, clutch, and motor and 215K miles. My oil pump leaks oil and the other day I realized I was a little low so added two quarts. The dipstick was still dry. I figured I now had 2 quarts more than I had before. I also had absolutely no coolant in it at the time. After a few miles of driving and alot of overheating the coolant was so low that the radiator was still cold and pretty much empty. Having a rally car means my daily gets a little neglected. Not to mention the availability of good upgrade motors when a competitor becomes available to get the upgraded license. Eg. 2.2 Turbo, 2.0 Turbo, and don't forget there is alot of rally parts already made for these cars. They are my recommendation to every new driver, including myself (though I took the easy route of buying a cheap already built 2WD car).
 

·
Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
Joined
·
2,953 Posts
Jeffrey,
You're taking this personally and arguing wildly.
Please, take a breath.
SVX had a 6 and 2.5s come in 4 and 2 cam versions, none older than '97.
The more reliable ones are 2 cam and '99 and newer.
Compared to a possible free 2.2, they are rare and valuable.
Unless you have a monetary stake in this, I can't see why you have to fight and argue.
2.5s are still legal for Open, PGT and I'm running mine this weekend in RNY Fall version as a NASA P2, I just won't be able to nyaa, nyaa any of the GF guys (but they better not beat me, that'd be rude).
The kids are for something, why not allow them some fun?
rz
 

·
Media Dude
Joined
·
1,464 Posts
if canada was in to this class it is totally the class i would build for, but since they are not, i am not so sure, as a 2.2 n/a imprezza falls into the same class as a WRX... a bit of difference in power. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,246 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
>The FWD trans doesn't bolt up to the 2.2 engine. If you
>look, only 1.8L Imprezas were FWD. They made 1.8L AWD
>models but not 2.2L FWD models.

look past the imprezas. AWD was an option on legacies untill 96.

so from 90-95 all legacies were available in fwd w/ej22. i have one. its a very nice handling FWD car.


fine it is a one make series but that doesnt sound as fun to say as spec subie.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,001 Posts
Does your 'spec subie' class allow diffs? I ask because if somebody bought a used PGT car and was crazy enough to go to a 2.2L with whatever diffs they had in PGT, I'm wondering if its still legal.

Hopefully the class takes off, has an actual incentive to run it, I think its a good idea in general.

(Chalk up a vote for allowing 2.5RS'es in some form for me btw)
 

·
straight at T
Joined
·
2,472 Posts
My take on this is that you have a group of cars out there competing that would make a basis for the class, but a number of them are 2.5s. I doubt that many of them would change out the motor (and become Open-class cars) just to run spec subie. Of the existing (i.e. currently competing) NA subarus out there, how many are 2.2s? I know there are some 1.8s running in Canada because our production rules put them in P3 (equivalent to P) rather than P4 (PGT). I can only think of one 2.2 Impreza that is running in the east. I do agree that this could also be open to the 2.0 NA 4wd Galant (and its Chrysler/Eagle equivalents) as well as NA Audis (4000/90).

Adrian
 

·
Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
Joined
·
2,953 Posts
RE: spec simple subie

Adrian and Jay,
Just to go over this idea again and summarize what was decided on the first time around...
The whole idea is to make a group that has similar stuff so that where ever you go there'd be someone to compare times to using the most basic and affordable equipment out there.
This is not a "class" or championship at all, just a comparable, dirt cheap rally car that anyone can find and run without too much sacrifice.
To make it even better, I have challenged the Group F guys and all their cams, gears, compression and diffs to keep up with Simple Spec Subies.
Although I get so much grief from 2.5 guys (like I have myself), 2.2s are cheaper, easy to find, make it more embarrassing for the GF guys, easier on transmissions, make differentials and other tricks less important and have less performance differences than the 2.5 2 and 4 cam engines.
As more people get interested in the group (or GANG), we can try to wean the 2.5s and out and get everyone on the same page but for now, we'll just look at the times and results and see where we stand. I think with a car like mine with a 2.5, welded center and 4.44s, the GF guys don't have a chance. I also broke a gearbox this year and I hate that. It means work and money. At LSPR, Bob Olson showed well, the GF guys and he were close.
Any in-depth comparisons of performance at events are welcome and could be an amusing thread to offset the ones that are full of crybabies trying to tailor rules to their singular position.

The bodys are 90 up Legacy and 93 up Impreza.
2.2 preferred, please keep in mind we'd like to have all 2.2 someday, I've heard all the crying but I'm not impressed - 2.2 is cheaper.
Gears that came in the car are preferred over mix and match.
Struts that cost equal or less than DMS.
If you have a Subaru LSD rear, fine, it doesn't work anyway.
When you need a clutch, put in a puck disk, it will be cheaper over time.
Rubber mounts are open as who can tell anyway.
Take anything out you want to, just don't spend money replacing it with something more expensive. Let cost be your guide.
Cheap = good (legal)
Expensive = bad (cheating yourself)

Here's where the engine controversy stands:
If you have a 2.5, run it until,
a) you wear it out or break it.
b) get tired of buying transmissions and thinking of buying diffs and spending money.
c) you get bored running between the turbos and the GF and SSS guys and want to have a good, fair fight.

As far as diffs and other expensive stuff like headers and ignitions and whatever:
Use whatever crutch you want but once you get up to speed, start taking that stuff off and be fair with yourself. It only works if you play nice. There's no money, fame or fortune just the happiness in knowing you crushed those GF guys with a turd-mobile.

rz
 

·
Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
Joined
·
2,953 Posts
RE: other cars

Adrian,
NASA has a P2 class that allows any NA 4wd.
I'm all for this as it makes NA cars viable to compete in something.
SSS is a subset that can cross borders and sanctioning bodies.
"We're not a club, we're a Gang!
rz
 

·
Dirt surfer
Joined
·
1,367 Posts
RE: other cars

rz--

glad to hear that 2.5s are OK, even if I have to "wean" myself from it eventually! You're right, tho, a good 2.5 is rare and valuable

all this howling about novices being limited to lower powered cars and such would go away if the people howling were let loose on a good hot stage in a well-prepped Spec Sube with "only" 130 or 165 hp.....once they got off the stage, I'd challenge any of them to stop grinning like an idiot and just buy or build one and shut up and go racing.

see ya at RNY next weekend

Dave G

"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
 

·
L3> over crest, drops!
Joined
·
647 Posts
RE: So when can we build them?

OK,

Now we've hashed over this topic for quite a while. Let's lay some building guidlines down for those of us on the cusp of prepping the next car.

1. Stock Engines
2. Stock diffs (available in that car)
3. Stock Trannies
4. What else?

RZ,
You know what's up with the Subies, and as a fellow Subie fan, and tech RIGHT ON! No SVX ever came with a 2.5..

The 2.2 is the WARHORSE of the Subaru engine lineup, period.

Now, let's build some cars...;)
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top