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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
gc chassis only

1.8 2.2 or 2.5

1.8 is allowed some performance mods

2.2 is the baseline and gets no engine mods

2.5 gets a weight penalty

would work w/out the 1.8 i guess

could allow the gds but then we would have to penalize the 2.5 gcs w/more ballast so i would say no

just like spec rx-7 in road racing

spec cars do not have to mean high dollar cars

discuss im going to bed
 

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Great idea, but why not expand it into an AWD Group F?

With very similar rules you could allow non-turbo Audis, other model Subarus, etc.

Also, as was pointed out in the Group F threads, any budget class that doesn't allow cheap reliability upgrades isn't really a budget class.
 

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RE: Great idea, but why not expand it into an AWD Group F?

> Cars are very reliable as is.

Dunno about Impreza 2.2s. Are you running stock brakes on yours? Stock upper strut mounts? I'm sure there are some areas where the stock part lasts one event, but a relatively cheap upgrade (like WRX brakes with a bigger, thicker rotot) might last five events.
 

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Greg,
try and understand the following principle:
Incentives Incentives Incentives.
There is no rational point to limiting a class to one model or one brand if there are no incentives.

Go find those French magazines Posts and look the the incentives from the manufacturers (subsidised car, performance parts packages including real gearsets and LSDs, cams and exhausts etc on the one hand and organisation, points keeping, build advice, and importantly, the power of Corporate Promotion who know what they're doing.), and also incentives directly to the drivers in terms of SUBSTANTIAL PRIZE FUNDS PAYED WELL PAST 25th PLACE.

In current exchange rates, winners in one of the series for little weenie froggie cars can win USD 14,700 per gravel round of the series and nearly 10,000 bucks for those lightweight weenie tarmac events.

THEY can't have a free ADVERTISING opportunity with a bunch of teams willing to build cars and drive them, so they help out.
The drivers have a chance to recoup operating costs during the courese of the season, and the fact that it is in a small limited performance car is MITIGATED by the Promotion of results which highlights his driiving on the one hand AND STUFFS HIS POCKETS WITH ABOUT
TEN TO TWELVE THOUSAND DOLLARS MORE THAN _ANY_ Class does here.

Without those incentives and preconditions why bother, and who would give a flying ****?

And Greg, there is a fundemental and unbridgeable difference in the two tasks of amature roadracing and gravel rally.
With apologies to our resident refugee Herr Zimmer, the task at hand in roadracing is made relatively simple: grip is offered from the surface in abundance, nearly no thought is needed to SEE the line where the best grip is.
It is so simple that countless hours and dollars are spent tring to find the last 1/2%, which cannot be particularly satisfying except to obsessive neurotic compulsives.

And must be particularly frustrating when somebody with more motor blows past, or stickier tires drives around you, and waves.

So just like the desire here to try and make clear the role of the DRIVER vs the advantage of 3 diffs and a turbo which is seen to be a crying need here in gravel rally, roadracer boys know the tracks not THE BIG VARIABLE and that POWER AND GRIP _CAN_ BE BOUGHT.

So they devise their narrow spec series with spec tires and spec weights and spec boxes to TRY and make the drivers INPUT the decisive variable in the results, because it is clear that on tracks the are certain vehicle packages which are better at traacks than others.

On loose surface racing, tradionally the biggest variable has been finding grip for accelleration, braking and cornering.
A huge, amusing and varies list of CARS have had some measure of sucess in the last 35 years in just two wheel drive showing the
THE JUDGEMENT AND DISCERNMENT of the driver/co driver to find grip has been the major factor in the results the crew achieves.

As long as the car is 2wd, on gravel the driver is the BIG VARIABLE.

So as GRIP is the TASK, and on regular sealed surfaces grip can be bought and power, which is also easy to buy is easy to apply, people look for ways to limit the role of simple spending in the end results.

Likewise, on varible loose surfaces, since the grip and performance available for purchase so clouds the role of the driver's performance, you see these groundswells of reaction in Gp222 and GpF attempting to create a situation where there is more certainty that _DRIVING_ and JUDGEMENT were the major elements in the results.

I really cannot understand why one would want to actually buy a limited performance car unless there were some powerful incentives, it just isn't as much FUN as a car that has some yank in it.



John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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RE: Great idea, but why not expand it into an AWD Group F?

>> Cars are very reliable as is.
>
>Dunno about Impreza 2.2s. Are you running stock brakes on
>yours? Stock upper strut mounts? I'm sure there are some
>areas where the stock part lasts one event, but a relatively
>cheap upgrade (like WRX brakes with a bigger, thicker rotot)
>might last five events.


We ran stock strut mounts and stock brakes with a 2.2 with no faliures for years. Both in the Impreza and with Fry in the Legacy.
 

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>JV,
>no reason?
>How about COST?
>Works for me.
But you already have a choice of 2 classes don't you?
Can't your car be entered in both Open and PGT?
>rz





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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RE: Great idea, but why not expand it into an AWD Group F?

> We ran stock strut mounts and stock brakes with a 2.2 with no faliures for years. Both in the Impreza and with Fry in the Legacy.

But what do you run now that you go fast? :p

Anyway--it really doesn't matter. As long as you don't get some situation where the same part fails or wears out every rally, but the rules prohibit the competitor from upgrading.
 

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Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
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RE: ?

Jon.
Could you edit that again so your last statement makes sense?
I may be able to interpret it and respond tho...
We KNOW what fails on a Subaru and Know what to loosen up rules on.
I'd say that when the clutch disk fails to replace it with a copper puck style. The grip makes stock ones stink on starts.
Brakes.
I ran 2.2 and 2.5 rotors and both have trouble with tarmac stages (go figure) but otherwise, stock pads are fine on gravel and last over a year with both sizes. 2.2s don't go supersonic now do they? But stage times are fine and can be plenty scarey. A 1.8 may be too slow and 2.5s driven without empathy hurt gears - they also cost more to get. Just about every old Legacy has a 2.2 donor engine in it.
Shock tops.
I replaced a 3 year-old STi one that failed with a stock one and could care less.
Trust us, these things are tanks. Changing things just because you Think you can make it better may just cause More problems.
rz
 

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>But you already have a choice of 2 classes don't you?
>Can't your car be entered in both Open and PGT?
>
>John Vanlandingham
>Seattle, WA. 98168
>
>Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Who are you, and what have you done to John?! :(

Lol John, that is the shortest post I have ever seen you make on this board. :)

I think the point of a spec class, even without incentives, is that everyone has exact same cars, so you can truly compare yourself to other drivers and no one can make excuses and explanations, ifs, ands, or buts. For that purpose, sticking to the 2.2 models would probably be ideal. Good luck with the spec class!
 

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John,
I am happy to do what I've been doing and have no plans to tailor this discussion to suit my needs or desires.
I am only using my experience and what I've seen around me to suggest the absolute cheapest way to run in this sport with the lowest possible up-front expense and maintenance.
If I need to put my money where my mouth is, I could/would do it tomorrow but that may be construed as self-interest and any input I make afterwards could be seen as self-serving.
Again, I find it hard to believe a guy who embraced an old 96 with a 5.5 gear in it as a super car thinks going twice as fast in a stock sube is boring.
Sorry but it had to be said.
You have to be consistant in your arguements to be taken seriously.
rz
 

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RE: Great idea, but why not expand it into an AWD Group F?

>> We ran stock strut mounts and stock brakes with a 2.2 with no faliures for years. Both in the Impreza and with Fry in the Legacy.
>
>But what do you run now that you go fast? :p
>
>Anyway--it really doesn't matter. As long as you don't get
>some situation where the same part fails or wears out every
>rally, but the rules prohibit the competitor from upgrading.

Stock strut mounts, suspension bushings, motor mounts, tranny mounts, diff mounts, rear brakes. Front brakes were upgraded to WRX calipers and RS rotors, but they are very cheap in the sceme of things. :+

Keith
 

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>John,
>I am happy to do what I've been doing and have no plans to
>tailor this discussion to suit my needs or desires.
>I am only using my experience and what I've seen around me
>to suggest the absolute cheapest way to run in this sport
>with the lowest possible up-front expense and maintenance.
>If I need to put my money where my mouth is, I could/would
>do it tomorrow but that may be construed as self-interest
>and any input I make afterwards could be seen as
>self-serving.
>Again, I find it hard to believe a guy who embraced an old
>96 with a 5.5 gear in it as a super car thinks going twice
>as fast in a stock sube is boring.
But Randy, I really don't understand what you mean with that comment.
The old Saab was consistantly faster on stages than the majority of the PGT turbo 4wd cars including the reigning National Champion in PGT which was caught on stages (albeit right at finish controls) at the last which was run with 'just the normal problems' Lake Superior 1995.
That IS a while ago but are you suggesting that the field is twice as Fast than then??
So who is going twice as fast in what stock Subaru?


>Sorry but it had to be said.
>You have to be consistant in your arguements to be taken
>seriously.
>rz
I am lost.
I think I uderstand what you are saying about the 2.2 Subaru being a relatively reliable package for you but I've driven 2,2 and 2.5s and sorry I don't think they are particularly intersting regarding performance, not much ft/lbs and way too much weight, but!....

If you guys want a GpF 4wd, then allow any Normal aspirated max 2,5 maybe.





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 
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I have my happy red VW jetta.

JV has said countless times, and I am buying into the dogma, that without the right ring and pinion, it will be a complete dog.

This gear, assuming I ever find one, lists for $800.

Maybe I should take the $800 and put it towards a Subaru that wouldn't need me to do much of anything to it?

What do these 2.2 things usually sell for used on Ebay?
 

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Well John, thanks for being nice about my dig, getting "Jake'd" with defending myself here.
I just think the cost justifies the means.
There may be better choices out there but I think they'd all be more expensive in some other way than the 2.2.
Sure, we'd all like to go supersonic but if everyone has the same stuff, it gets more interesting.
rz
 

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I started at "completed sales" of '95 and '96 and got a few automatics that were pulled for not getting high enough bids (apparently, since some were offered again with the same result)
1997:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2488502441&category=31868
$3050
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2489507233&category=31868
$2200
---
1998:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...tem=2489180437&category=31868&sspagename=WDVW
$2000
others were all automatics between $3200 and $4051.
---
1999:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2489217451&category=31868
$4300
---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...tem=2489056757&category=31868&sspagename=WDVW
2000:
$4150

So what I learned from looking is, most are automatic wagons and the sellers don't get enough and cancel the auction.
Subes usually sell for more locally and don't need to go online to sell them. Actually, most are so reliable and loved, they are kept in the family.
rz
 

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RE: spec. impreza: heh-heh, already run one!

Modestly submitting my dear RS-spec Scooby "Tulip" as prototype for Spec Impreza class...car has 12 events in logbook so far, plus a dozen rallyxes, many many school/test days @ Team O'Neil, and assorted "brisk TSDs" etc.

shell: 1994 L AWD 1.8 4-door, bought off wholesale lot for $2400. Seam-welded, front strut towers boxed

cage: FIA pattern, by a friend from Vermont who normally builds short-track dirt racers (and now buys GC Imp bodies and cages em quite nicely, ready to accept your mechanicals)

engine: latest one is a box stock 2.5, bought off a wrecked RS for (ahem) $225 (we have used a couple of 1.8s and an amazingly durable RS motor as well)

gearbox: off a Forester we think, scavenged from local breaker's yard

diff: Forester again, 4.11 w/Phantom Grip mechanical limited slip

DMS 50mm gravel spec struts, 275 lb springies

STi strut tops (stock RS ones kept busting)

dead stock RS brakes with Carbotech race pads

standard 3/8" Primitive underbody armor, w/a little help from fabbed ally plates

Other suspension bits: as they came off the line, more or less.

It's amazing how stock this thing really is. OK, OK, so there's a Link ECU and that MRT header/exhaust setup and a couple other tweaks(like the Home Depot PVC pipe intake) that might not fit everyone's definition of Spec Impreza class...hey it's a race car, OK??!! Runs in SCCA/CARS Open class 'cuz 2.5 was not available in '94 or some such scrutineering minutiae....quite able to spank PGT turbo cars when kept out of the ditches sufficiently.

Tulip ran as fastest non-turbo Subaru at Rim & STPR 2003, and was fastest non-turbo car overall at Sherwood Forest ClubRally 2004.

She's simple. tough. reliable (umm, long as you don't mill heads too much trying to bump compression). reasonably inexpensive, circa $15-20k in car so far.

I'd advocate RS drivetrain as core of Spec Impreza class: torquey 2.5, free exhaust, stock RS gearbox w/nice close ratios, stock 4.11 rear LSD, yada yada.

It's absolutely amazing how fast a Subie like this will go...and yet it's not all that far removed from your neighbor's wife's little grocery-getter! (yeh, right)

Dave G
Tulip owner and serial Scooby thrasher
LDR

"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
 
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