[John Vanlandingham]

You know we all live an an absolutely PROMOTION SATURATED enviroment and a lot of it is pretty silly 'created for promotion' things like that stupid drifting nonsense (I just watched som Japanese vid at the Asian Supermarket, what a bunch of wanking!!!) or 'monster trucks' and on and on.

We need excitement, and we need _identification_ or affiliation.

Sorry folks, to most guys on the street who I've talked into watching in recent years, most are not jazzed about the modestly driven (at best) Sububishis and Mitsuburus.

Its boring to watch.
And therefore hard to honestly creat excitment about.

Seeing how EVERYBODY LOVED Jardevalls Volvo, and I hear the same about Hursts Moostangst, in the past Mike Whites' Datsun 510, what do we see as the central element in those 2 cars?
RWD?
Well yeah but more importantly VIGOUROUS driving is what makes the folks cheer like Brazillian soccer fans, vigourous driving in a car that those watching IMAGINE they could own and drive.

Promotion of a parade of clone cars which seldom rev more than 3200 rpm like we've seen in the last 4 years is a hard thing to do.



John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

 

[RichardM]

Excitement is important only if you want spectators. Spectators do not equate to sponsorship. Nor are you selling sponsorship based on the number of spectators who see the car at an event. Rather you are selling total views of the car.
Richard
PS: I am neither agreeing or disagreeing on the concept of what is exciting to watch out in the woods.

 

[tom grossmann]

John I have to agree with you on this one - The folks at NECKAR may be the kings of hype but at the end of the day the have 43 cars driving hard and trading paint until the very end. I would rather see a dozen well prepped and hard driven G2 cars than two factory cars and three or four privateers trailing behind. The big question is how to get this done. AWD seems to have captivated the publics fancy - it maybe a case of WRC envy. My personal pick would be two classes 2WD and 4WD. 2wd cars would be open , 4 WD would be allowed open class suspension but motors would limited. This way maybe the 2wd and 4 wd cars would mix it up overall. Of course this is my two cents , I would be interested to hear other ideas.

Tom

 

[Sans Peur]

>Spectators do not equate to sponsorship.<

I'm not sure I'd agree with that after seeing the folks that come out to RIM and the way Ray gets real companies paying to display their wares for "spectators".

It?s by no means the end all but getting spectators in the woods is the start?.


Andrew Sutherland
UniversalRally.com

 

[PAddy]

Move to Quebec? They seem to have a good time...

http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID4/593.html

 

[Morgan]

So how do you propose we get people excited without promotion?

without any promotion there will be nobody watching to get excited. Sorry, but the egg has to come before the chicken, in this case at least

I can tell you with authority (how many rallies have you been to this year?) that there is excitement for both the front running Subarishis AND the old rear wheel drive cars (mainly because they are usually very sideways). It is the stuff in between that people are a bit ho-hum about (apologies to those people, but I tell it how I see it)

You only need to read the Subaru forums to see that there are many many people that follow rally specifically to see the Subarishis and the stuff that gets you excited is just an added attraction.

 

[JD Ackley]

How exciting is an F-1 race to watch? They seem to be doing alright when it comes to sponsorship monies. I think promotion is the key, but it lands you in the quandry "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" Without awareness, a pro series will never progress. And without a top tier series, you will not see all the trickle down "reganonimics" cars like you see in european locales.

 

[RichardM]

>
>>Spectators do not equate to sponsorship.<
>
>I'm not sure I'd agree with that after seeing the folks that
>come out to RIM and the way Ray gets real companies paying
>to display their wares for "spectators".
>
>It?s by no means the end all but getting spectators in the
>woods is the start?.
>
>
>Andrew Sutherland
>UniversalRally.com
Not having been to RIM I am not sure. Aren't the companies displaying their wares at the fair grounds? The real "show" is not out on the stages but in the displays and the showy "Super Stages". That is what I am talking about in my posting elsewhere about how to promote.
Richard

ETS: In other words having 5000 spectators walk slowly by your car is more important to a sponsor than having the car go fast by 500 spectators out in the woods.

 

[Lurch]

http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID11/50.html

 

[FMF]

I have to agree hype is everywhere real excitement is scarce. Fortunately we have it, we just need to use it. I really don't think the car 2wd 4wd matters that much although Eric Burmister did draw the biggest cheers for his shenanigans at the end of the last stage at MFR. It?s more a question of driving talent. 6-8 Drivers who are very capable and in fairly equal equipment are going to push each other hard and create a good show. The key part is to create a situation where they can do it. Which means affordable access (insert your favorite class here, my particular favorite is N prototype) and something to chase after MONEY sorry but pats on the back don?t pay for new parts and tires. Put 50,000 out their for 1-3 and just see how many of these ?where are they nows?? come out of the woodwork. Just the other day I was at a roundy round shop that builds cars I have no idea what class but like 25-50,000 cars so not junk but not real pricy. We got talking about the sport a little bit and I was asking some questions about costs. Basically, you can make money doing it between sponsors and purses each race is like 25,000 for a win and the championship is worth like 100,000 + and this is the equivalent of a regional club rally championship. So no wonder they have managed to create excitement going around in a circle. That?s almost enough money to make me a sell out! Basic principal is you use money to attract and motivate talent where the current paradigm is spend your money to show off your talent or to make up for the talent you don?t have.

 

[Flyboy]

WTF John, here you go again ripping on American drivers. Honestly, what are getting at?

>
>Sorry folks, to most guys on the street who I've talked into
>watching in recent years, most are not jazzed about the
>modestly driven (at best) Sububishis and Mitsuburus.

Ok, so we all suck in "big buck AWD cars", but we would magically be transformed in Finnish rally masters if we bought shitbox Volvos? Most of the guys I've talked to in the last couple years ARE jazzed up about "modestly driven" (although they don't seem to think so) Subies and Mitsus. In fact, many of them aren't aware that people still rally old 2wd cars. The world does exist beyond Scandanavia and the Pacific North West John.


>

>Well yeah but more importantly VIGOUROUS driving is what
>makes the folks cheer like Brazillian soccer fans, vigourous
>driving in a car that those watching IMAGINE they could own
>and drive.

Newsflash John, despite the posturing on SS, most people drive their AWD cars pretty damn vigorously. Oh sure we talk about "saving the car" and "not pushing till it's paid off" but that all gets thrown out the window when the codriver hits about two on his countdown. If someone isn't seeing "vigorous" driving, it's becuase of one of three reasons:

1. They didn't go to the rally.
2. The organizers picked a crappy spectating location.
3. The TV producers didn't get it on film.

Neither of these are the driver's fault. We go out and light it up regardless of who is or isn't watching.

And BTW, last I checked you could pick up a brand spanking new Evo or Subie at the dealership for under $30k, with a warrenty, a kick ass stereo, no rust, and airbags. But I'm sure these people would rather be driving 1972 Datsuns.
>

>Promotion of a parade of clone cars which seldom rev more
>than 3200 rpm like we've seen in the last 4 years is a hard
>thing to do.
>

Uhh, my throttle kicker is set at around 2200 rpm, so are you suggesting I driver in a 1000 rpm powerband? Most of my driving is done between 4000 and 7000, but I usually pop the rev limiter (7800) a half dozen times or so per stage.

>
>John Vanlandingham
>Seattle, WA. 98168
>
>Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

John, instead of whining about all the drivers who suck with their Suberats and Misterbichis, why don't you actually show up to a rally for once, get in one of your beloved piece of shit Volvos, Xratty's, or Saabs, and show us how a "real" driver does it. I'm sure the forests will be teeming with enthused spectators to see how you do it.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845

 

[Andrew Comrie Picard]

No, John's right. I wasn't really trying in any of the shots below. I know Pat wasn't really pushing when he rolled at Maine.


http://www.musketeerracing.com/photos/2004/snodrift/snodrift1.jpg
http://www.musketeerracing.com/photos/2003/baie/baie1.jpg
http://www.musketeerracing.com/photos/2003/defi/defi10.jpg

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.

 

[Pete Kuncis]

>I can tell you with authority (how many rallies have you
>been to this year?) that there is excitement for both the
>front running Subarishis AND the old rear wheel drive cars
>(mainly because they are usually very sideways). It is the
>stuff in between that people are a bit ho-hum about
>(apologies to those people, but I tell it how I see it)

I can totally agree. Put Doug Shepherd in all the cars and there will be no "boring" cars. The cars are fine, we just need to speed up the people behind the wheel. There are those who are fast and/or exciting (we all know who they are). There are those that go beyond 11/10ths at the spectator areas (like they should ).

The downfall is that with more speed comes more money to fix broken/smashed things. More speed and excitement brings more people to watch. More people brings more sponsor interest, which may bring more money.

(This is all easy for me to say since I don't compete.)

$.02

Pete

 

[Paul Westwick]

The central question, unanswered because it is largely unasked, is "the key to what?"

If your central purpose in this endeavour is to sell cars, or tires, or cell phones, or hair loss medicine, then promotion is absolutely the key, and everything else is secondary. But have you ever tried to motivate 300 volunteers to stand out in the mosquito-infested woods all day to sell hair loss medicine?

Even at the WRC level, the sport is hugely reliant on volunteers who give of their time and talent out of enthusiasm for the sport, and to feel the excitement and be a part of it. They don't come out of a burning desire to promote a sponsor's products. Nor is that the primary motivation of 90% of our competitors.

This doesn't mean that I think we should go back to playing by ourselves in the woods, a secret sport for the cogniscenti alone. Sponsorship and promomotion are very important elements which allow us to build a more exciting sport. But the central purpose, and the central motivation, must always be the sport - the excitement, the competition, the fun, the cameraderie.

Sponsors pay money in order to get promotion, and the sport must work hard to give value for that money. But if that turns the sport into three-ring circus, takes away from the excitement, or kills the motivation for volunteers and grass-roots competitors, then what have we gained from all that sponsorship? Conversely, a super-exciting, competitive sport that nobody ever sees will not attract enough sponsorship to pay its own bills. Keep it all in balance, and both the sport and the sponsors can benefit.

 

[PAddy]

>No, John's right. I wasn't really trying in any of the shots
>below. I know Pat wasn't really pushing when he rolled at
>Maine.

I doubt he categorically meant everyone (Though I make no guarantees...), but the trend is there. In quickly skimming the results for MFR and some other recent events (include clubs, so who knows), there are a couple fast 4wd cars, the well driven 2wd, and then all the rest, usually with a large contingent of Mitsu/Subarus (old and new).

From my experience spectating these last few years, you get wowed by the pace of the front runners, then there's a rather dull part where a whole bunch of shiney new-er cars go by on cruise control, and then some screaming/fun 2wd econoboxes. Not just SCCA events though, same thing happened at SBBR, for example at my corner the spectator responses were:

* Jamacians / Thompson - Gasps and "oh my god"-esque comments

* Mid pack - "hmmmmmmm......"

* Sprongl swift / a pair of VW's / Capri - Big hoots, hollers + cheers.

When I'm standing at a corner and see the first few cars, the feeling is "someday", like they're unreachable. When the midpack goes by, there isn't much. And when you get to the on-edge 2wd, it's "hey, THAT looks like fun". It's those last ones that are the motivation for me to drive 4 hours to go stand in the cold/wet/buggy/snowy/ woods with a radio and make sure nobody comes off a sideroad at 1am.

In truth, I don't know if I cheered more for you when you were in the Lada or the Evo, but the point is you have your foot down in both cases. Given equal drivers, I think I'd actually rather see an event with 40 grp 2/5/production cars as opposed to 10 world rally cars. They arn't even all that loud....

 

[tom grossmann]

ok guys I read this differantly - I saw this post more aimed at we need more participation at the upper levels. I think both competitors and manufacturers would get more out of the sport with big contigencies rather than spending 500K+ on running their own cars. The AWD Mitsuburus are what the public currently gets jazzed about so they are here to stay. Of course my opinion is suspect as I drive a shitty old Volvo every day and race a 72 Datsun.

Tom Grossmann

 

[Mike Hurst]

RE: Sorry, EXCRETEMENT is the Key not promotion

>....drive a shitty
>old.....

In my shop, there's a fine line dividing "excitement" and "excretement".

 

[Lurch]

RE: Sorry, EXCRETEMENT is the Key not promotion

>In my shop, there's a fine line dividing "excitement" and
>"excretement".

I always wondered why Pontiac was so proud to be "selling excre...ahem...excitement."

...and just for a laugh...

The new Pontiac 7-series! (the Bavariac).

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26293

 

[John Vanlandingham]

>So how do you propose we get people excited without
>promotion?

lets see if the promotion part of it could be put intop a perspective that Morgan can understand.

Lets pare down the activity portion of the equation until what we had was not only no sideways action on a gravel turn, but no car.
Just a gravel turn.
What sort of business plan could Morgan concoct to promote that?

>
>without any promotion there will be nobody watching to get
>excited. Sorry, but the egg has to come before the chicken,
>in this case at least
Well _you_ may think so.
I didn't need anybody to promote driving sideways to me.
Simply seeing it, THE THING ITSELF, with no comments no promotion but good sideways driving, was enough to make me want to try it.

>
>I can tell you with authority
Wooooooooooooooooo Ooooooooooooo!



(how many rallies have you
>been to this year?)
The last one was last year Wild Waste, boring.
The only time I get out of the goddam garage is to make errands to get parts of to go to China and visit family and talk with the boys there about building the sport.


that there is excitement for both the
>front running Subarishis AND the old rear wheel drive cars
>(mainly because they are usually very sideways).



It is the
>stuff in between that people are a bit ho-hum about
>(apologies to those people, but I tell it how I see it)

Jeeeeeesuss H. Keeeerist, I'm going to agreee with something from Morgan?????!!!! Shheeeeeet the bed!
I will say that the British were pretty impressive, but not so much after that.

>
>You only need to read the Subaru forums to see that there
>are many many people that follow rally specifically to see
>the Subarishis and the stuff that gets you excited is just
>an added attraction.

Oh the Subaru forums, that fount of erudition and knowledge!!!!!

Oh jeeeeeezzus I think I just peeed myself laughing.
I am strong but even I have limits.....

So tell us the promotional program for the empty corner.





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

 

[Pete Kuncis]

>Lets pare down the activity portion of the equation until
>what we had was not only no sideways action on a gravel
>turn, but no car.
>Just a gravel turn.
>What sort of business plan could Morgan concoct to promote
>that?
>
>So tell us the promotional program for the empty corner.

Hot chicks.

Pete